Letter reversal question

[boscopup]

Ok, I know letter reversals are common to about age 8ish? My son just turned 7, and very recently, his letter reversals have actually been happening more often, and he's starting to reverse the letter 'c'. When I google letter reversals, I see that b/d is common (does that one a lot), p/q is common (does that one sometimes), n/u is common (does not do that), and m/w is common (does not do that). My son also reverses 'z'. So it's b/d, p/q, c, and z.

 

We have slacked off on our handwriting program, so I'm going to pick that back up again to review letter formation (though most of the things he used to do weird are fine now - he did them bottom to top or started in strange places).

 

He reads very well (currently reading a grade level 7.3 book), he spells well once he learns the rules, and he has never reversed letters when reading.

 

It seems to be bothering him recently, as he'll write a word, and then he'll notice that it's wrong (as he doesn't reverse when reading), and he'll say "I keep doing that!" Sometimes even on the second try, he'll still reverse it! I don't know if it's him being clumsy about it, trying to be silly, or what?

 

Writing in general was a struggle (arm hurting syndrome), but the last couple months have been MUCH better. Writing is becoming easier for him in general. His arm no longer hurts.

 

So is it normal for reversals to get worse for a bit when writing gets easier for them? I wonder if that's what's happening? Or should I be concerned at all? Or maybe he's just in a mode where he's focusing less on it? He does better when he's interested in what he's doing. :tongue_smilie:

[AnnaM]

Is your son left handed? I have a lefty and she sometimes amazes me with completely mirrored AND reversed sentences. I read somewhere that it is a right brain thing or something like that. I also read somewhere that it is a sign of intellegence but I dont know how aurate that is :rolleyes:

[Snowfall]

My daughter turned 7 in May and I noticed the same thing happening for her a few months before her birthday. We have had periods where it's gotten worse and periods where it's gotten better, but she was tested for dyslexia around her birthday and they said her reversals are all developmentally normal and she's not dyslexic. So I guess my vote would be not to worry about it. I would think if it were a vision problem, as with dyslexia, he'd have trouble reading also, not just writing, so I would guess there's nothing wrong at all. :) But of course I'm not an expert or anything, so take it with a grain of salt.

[boscopup]

Is your son left handed? I have a lefty and she sometimes amazes me with completely mirrored AND reversed sentences. I read somewhere that it is a right brain thing or something like that. I also read somewhere that it is a sign of intellegence but I dont know how aurate that is :rolleyes:

 

He is right handed, although he tends to think EXACTLY like my left handed sister (when it comes to math, reading, etc.). It's actually kind of scary... I'll post something weird on my blog, and my sister will e-mail me to say she thinks that way too. :lol:

[robsiew]

For what it's worth... my dd reversed b, d, p, q and z until she was about 8.5. Because she doesn't write "z" very often she still sometimes reverses that one. It took her FOREVER to get b and d right. She will occasionally still mess up those, but corrects it right away now (she just turned 9 in May). It really bugs her when she does it too.

 

If you don't have any other reason for concern I would just gently correct his reversals if he doesn't notice it and not make a big deal of it. Sometimes I'll read the word to her with the reversal to help her see it if she doesn't (did you mean to write "dat"? If she was writing "bat"...) I think some kids just need a little more maturation time. I notice this with her in other areas too. Sometimes if I know she needs to write a "b" or "d" I will remind her before she starts to think carefully about which way her letters go. She does fine then.

 

Again, this is from the perspective of the fact that this is the "only" thing I see. If there were indicators of further problems I'd address it differently. I have no other worries about her learning abilities so I'm chalking this one up to maturation time needed! ;)

 

ETA: It could be things are getting worse because he's not thinking as much how to form his other letter either... so the ones that gave him more trouble are popping up because in general writing is not such a chore so he's relaxed a bit more. Just a thought....

[boscopup]

ETA: It could be things are getting worse because he's not thinking as much how to form his other letter either... so the ones that gave him more trouble are popping up because in general writing is not such a chore so he's relaxed a bit more. Just a thought....

 

That may be what it is!

 

We're going to get back to doing some letter formation work everyday for good practice. We're switching from HWT print to GDI cursive, and I'm thinking I should maybe skip the GDI print and go straight to the cursive (we're using book C, but also have Startwrite), as HWT print is so similar anyway. There are just a few things done differently (like 'x'), where I can teach him the new way as he learns it in cursive.

[Ellie]

It isn't uncommon, and although it may mean there are problems, it isn't always so.

 

Sometimes it's just that their handwriting instruction wasn't explicit enough. Spalding and its spin-offs give exact directions on how to form each letter (e.g., circles begin at 2 on the clock, go up to 12, around to 9, down to 6, and back up to 2).

[boscopup]

Sometimes it's just that their handwriting instruction wasn't explicit enough. Spalding and its spin-offs give exact directions on how to form each letter (e.g., circles begin at 2 on the clock, go up to 12, around to 9, down to 6, and back up to 2).

 

They did ball and stick in his K class, which is horrible. We corrected it earlier this year with HWT, and he had almost no reversals after a while. Better letter formation instructions definitely helped! But maybe we didn't focus on them long enough.

[FO4UR]

Oh, I deal with lots of reversals. My 8yo is the king of reversals, inversions, mirror writing...

 

 

He does well with my explicit instructions, but reverts back after a break. We've taken off the most of June and he wrote, "I love you Grandma!" with everything beautifully written except "Grandma" was an exact mirror image...the other words were face-forward. I told my mom, "This is why I have to keep HSing this child!!!":tongue_smilie:

 

I'm a stickler for proper letter formation, but the deal is that he can tell himself "start at 2 o'clock, around like a zero, up and down" for d and have a mirror image of a clock in his head.:001_huh: He can look at a b and have to THINK about if the line is *really* before the bubble or if his eyes just think it is. The normal tricks for remembering do not work well with him.

 

 

 

 

The best thing I've found to do so far... writing a few problem letters at the top of a piece of paper and having him copy the letters as I dictate the sounds. I do about 10 copies of each letter, alternating them as I dictate so he really has to listen for the sounds. As we do this, I watch like a hawk for handwriting issues and stop reversals before they start.

 

Focusing more on copywork helps too.

[MeganW]

I have one kid who will write it wrong, immediately realize it, think about it being wrong, and write it wrong again. If she stops after realizing she messed up, and "writes" it in the air with her finger, though, she will get it right every time! I'm not sure why, but it always works!

[wapiti]

Teach cursive

 

Consider vision issues or vision processing issues (see e.g. http://www.covd.org/Home/AboutVisionLearning/SymptomsChecklist/tabid/114/Default.aspx). From this website http://www.childrensvision.com/reading.htm :

Visual Spatial Orientation helps us with letter reversals. Many parents and educators considered letter reversals after age seven to be a symptom of dyslexia. While this can be true, the most common cause of reversals in older children is a lack of visual spatial development--consistently knowing left from right, either in relationship to their own bodies or in the world around them. Children with poor visual processing have not developed adequate skills in visual perception and spatial orientation, such as laterality and directionality. Also, children who experience frequent double vision deal with such visual confusion that their brains often misinterpret their visual input.

 

just my two cents :)

[boscopup]

Teach cursive

 

Consider vision issues or vision processing issues (see e.g. http://www.covd.org/Home/AboutVisionLearning/SymptomsChecklist/tabid/114/Default.aspx). From this website http://www.childrensvision.com/reading.htm :

 

 

just my two cents :)

 

We are starting cursive now. :D

 

In the text you quoted above, it mentions left/right issues and such. He's actually VERY good with left/right and N/S/E/W. He learned left/right at the age of 3. He picked it up quickly and kept at it.

 

In the symptom checklist, he does rub his eyes sometimes, but that's usually when he's getting upset about something. I think his eyes start watering, then he rubs them, then they get irritated (he has allergic conjunctivitis). He has no problems reading for a long period of time (it took all of 5 days to read straight through SOTW2).

 

In the other symptoms, he reads really well and does math very well (we'll be starting MM 4A this fall). He thinks abstractly about math. His spelling is excellent once he learns the rules. So really, the only symptoms he has on the checklist are the letter reversals and the occasional rubbing of eyes, which aren't even in the same list of symptoms. He's not near or far sighted, as he's been to the eye doctor multiple times since about age 3 to watch for scratched cornea issues. So regular vision exams have been fine. We've never done a developmental exam.

 

As a curiosity thing, I had him write a couple words with his left hand on the white board yesterday, and he didn't reverse any letters, but he's definitely right handed. I wonder if he's a left handed mind stuck in a right handed body? :lol:

[MeganW]

He's not near or far sighted, as he's been to the eye doctor multiple times since about age 3 to watch for scratched cornea issues. So regular vision exams have been fine. We've never done a developmental exam.

 

 

 

 

I *knew* my kids had vision problems, and took them for vision exams with the most highly recommended, local opthamologist every year, and she kept telling me their vision was perfect and acting like I was a crazy mom. The OTs thought they had problems, I thought they had problems, and they kept getting perfect scores on the vision exams. So frustrating.

 

Turns out they are able to work to focus for just a minute, long enough to pass the vision exam, but can't hold it in focus.

 

Some of the "symptoms" we had - turning their heads so that only one eye was facing the paper to write. Trying to put their crayons/pencils down on a line, and consistently missing. My 6 year olds still can't color in the lines of even a simple coloring page. They just can't figure out exactly where the line is. Constant tripping - misjudging the stairs, anywhere the floor changes, like tile next to carpet or whatever - they trip over the border, constant "brushing" the doorways instead of walking through the middle, etc.

 

We finally took them to a developmental eye exam, despite my strong reservations due to less than enthusiastic endorsment from the medical community. (I was desperate.) I watched the 1 1/2 hour exam, and it validated every concern I had. I could see clearly that the doc was checking exactly what I was concerned about, and the issues showed up clearly in his testing. I had NOT told him upfront what my concerns were, b/c I didn't want to influence the testing, but his results were exactly what I would have expected.

 

With that said, I probably wouldn't do the developmental exam if I didn't suspect anything was wrong. I have done it for 2 of my kids, but not for the other 2.

Edited July 5, 2011 by MeganW

[Mom-ninja.]

My 7 yr old still reverses numeral 5 and 3. He reverses the letter z all the time, and p and q a lot.

 

I agree that teaching letter formation is helpful. We use D'Nealian and for that style a lowercase letter 'b' is started at the top and a lowercase letter 'd' is started with the circle.

 

My oldest ds is dyslexic and having been through the younger years with him, I do not suspect that my middle ds is. He may reverse letters and numerals still but it's normal for his age. He's still learning the code of written symbols. It takes time. To child the symbols are the same regardless of direction.

 

My 7 yr old is reading at a 3rd/4th grade level, and spells well. He spells much better than his older brother.

 

It sounds like your dc just needs more time and practice.

[RahRah]

 

As a curiosity thing, I had him write a couple words with his left hand on the white board yesterday, and he didn't reverse any letters, but he's definitely right handed. I wonder if he's a left handed mind stuck in a right handed body? :lol:

 

He might actually be a right-dominant ambidexterous - I am - I found out when I was young, I'd broken a finger on my right hand and couldn't use it and my science teacher realized I was writing with my left hand, taking notes, without any issues.

 

I didn't realize until recently that letter reversals are also tied to ambidextrousness and that I apparently did it when I was younger (until 8-9) as per my mother, who told me when I was telling her about DS's letter reversals and that he realizes when he looks down at the paper after he's written the letter backward/reversed (b for d, 3 for E) or mirrored (m for w). For a while he was reading in reversals too, but that has stopped and now it's just on paper he sometimes does it (will be 7 in August). Practice, practice, practice is what helped me (said mom) and that's what seems to be working for my DS - lots of practice using whichever letters he reverses at the same time......for example, if we're working on b/d....he'll practice B b, B b, B b, the D d, D d, D d (keeping the capital and lowercase together to remember which is which).....then bat, ball, dog, dud, base, date, deer, ball, etc. Just about four lines on paper a day, but it does help!

Edited July 5, 2011 by RahRah

[boscopup]

He might actually be a right-dominant ambidexterous - I am - I found out when I was young, I'd broken a finger on my right hand and couldn't use it and my science teacher realized I was writing with my left hand, taking notes, without any issues.

 

Interesting! My DH is right-dominant ambidextrous. He switched hands often until school when he finally settled into right-handedness, but he can still do a lot of things with his left hand.

 

Thanks everyone for the ideas! We'll keep practicing and plugging along. I don't think he needs a developmental exam at this point, as this is the ONLY thing he's having issues with, and it's still considered "normal" for this age. I think this probably is a result of writing becoming easier and thus not thinking about his writing as much as he was before. Hopefully with more practice, it will become automatic to write the letters the correct direction. ;)

[abbeyej]

Just because it's something new and because he's reading so much and because he's young enough that you may not have done this already... I'd go in and have a good vision work-up done on him. Best choice would be a "developmental optometrist" and a full "developmental vision exam" (*not* just a normal vision exam). Even if you do a regular exam with an optometrist with developmental optometry experience, they'll be more likely to catch any little quirks than a regular optometrist (especially those optometrist-in-a-box places where you go to buy cheap glasses -- and those places are awesome for glasses, but not good for adequate exams for children).

 

Even if there are no DOs in your area, look for a good optometrist. I wish I'd taken both of my kids in sooner, though since they're both very strong students, I had assumed there was nothing wrong. (And they both passed the basic screenings at the ped's office with no problems...)

[jenbrdsly]

I didn't see this thread until now. The whole right/hand vs left/hand is interesting. Here's a bit on my blog about reversals: http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/03/03/letter-and-number-reversals/

 

As a former K-4 teacher, I'd say that reversals are normal up until December of third grade (8ish). After that point, you should have them checked out immediately.

 

Good luck!

[jenbrdsly]

Teach cursive

 

Consider vision issues or vision processing issues (see e.g. http://www.covd.org/Home/AboutVisionLearning/SymptomsChecklist/tabid/114/Default.aspx). From this website http://www.childrensvision.com/reading.htm :

 

 

just my two cents :)

 

 

I agree with getting vision or processing issues checked out, and I agree with teaching neurotypical children cursive, but I don't believe in teaching cursive right off the bat to a child who might be struggling with a learning disability. You definitely need to get that checked out first.