RE: Classical Conversations

[Julie]

Can anyone provide feedback for Classical Conversations on a high school or even middle school level?

[G5052]

Study the book list and think through if you are prepared to truly "hand over" each subject to someone else. It doesn't work as well if the parent is substituting and working around the assignments. Certainly you add to it, but ideally you are on board with nearly all of it because the subjects are integrated and class is difficult if the students are not mostly on board.

 

Then approach it as you would hiring a contractor for a major job in your home. What is their background? Have they taught homeschooled teens? What kinds of problems have they run into and how have they resolved them? What subject is their strongest? What subject is their weakest? If you haven't already been able to talk to parents who have had kids in their classes, are they willing to provide references?

 

I'm very pro-CC and have mine in the program, but these are the questions that I ask every year when I re-evaluate our involvement.

[Julie]

Thanks so much those are great thoughts, and really good questions to ask. Mainly, I am not on board for the Latin, as both of the kids I am considering for the program just completed their first year of HS Spanish, and would like to get that out of the way.

 

Also, I have been using Chalkdust and Jacobs Alg. with my son, not sure a transition into Saxon is a good idea this late in the game.

 

Overall it would probably be easier to transition my daughter who is going into 8th grade into the program than my son who will be in 9th. There are just so many great looking element to the program. Then I suppose there is my 8 year old to consider.......

[Brenda in FL]

I would love to hear from parents who have used Challenge I-IV.

 

My 8th grade will be starting Challenge A next year - we were a new community this year - so there will be other 13 year olds in Challenge A with him.

 

We are a year ahead in math - so we will be skipping that class (first in the morning.)

 

I just returned from practicum, and although they didn't talk too much about Challenge, it was emphasized that we are still the teacher and we will have to keep up with assignments so that we can have those conversations at home. The level of literature reading is such that I could incorporate my younger kids - and then they'll just have more exposure once they are assigned the same books.

 

For our family - we will benefit from the discipline and accountability. I am impressed by our tutors and the group of kids that will be comprising the class. Most were together this past year in Foundations and Essentials.

 

I'm not completely sold on all the literature and subjects. I wish they were continnuing with Spanish. I wish they would move a more challenging latin up to Challenge A and B. I wish some of the reading selections were more in line with Omnibus or the reading list in TWTM. I wish there was history. But I love the other options that would be hard to replicate at home. And I don't know that I would get to some of these things in my home anyway! So for me - the pros are outweighing the cons.

 

We will evaluate it year by year and see how it goes!!

[i.love.lucy]

:lurk5: Bump.

 

I am thinking/praying about becoming a Challenge A Director for the 2012/2013 school year. I would also love to hear experiences.

 

Most of my friends found it to be quite rigorous. The point of the literature is not the reading, but the writing they do about that reading. Their kids were very much held to a high standard and encouraged to participate fully with all aspects, not pick and chose. One friend also has a child ahead in math, so she will be attending the math class in Challenge I instead of her B class.

 

I'm quite excited about it for our own child, so I am :bigear: for ideas/concerns from the prospective parent viewpoint.

 

Also, I understand that after this year they are going to Henle Latin starting in Challenge A. 4 years of Latin from A/B/I/II and then Spanish in III/IV. I personally think 4 years of Latin would prepare you quite well for more years in Spanish.

[laughing lioness]

Interview the Tutor and get clear on expectations, how communication will work. While CC advertises that the parent is still the teacher, in reality, if there is not GREAT communication it is very easy for the parent to be left out of the loop.

Also, the Challenge program will depend almost solely on the Tutor. Can they manage a classroom? Do they have experience teaching? Will they be prepared? Are their own kids in the class and what will the dynamics of that be?

[Julie]

Amy, I am anxious to hear what you decide.

 

I am hopeful that there are some others with older kids who can chime in. :)

[SonshineLearner]

I heard that one of the CC's around here did a whole summer of moms getting together and going through the Challenge course, during the summer. That way they felt prepared for the year. (That's in the PDX area...)

Sounds like a good idea if you're gonna do it, and you can also see if/that the tutor is prepared. :)

[newlifemom]

My niece, with little to no classical homeschooling under her belt just finished Challenge I. It was rigorous and yet she was able to keep up. She worked hard every day and learned so much. Some of the reading material is purposely easier to read because the goal is to really look at it rhetorically. If one has not done that before, it is much easier to discuss the larger themes of liberty and independence through a work such as Johnny Tremain than with Common Sense. Of course they still do read challenging books and primary documents as well.

 

The tutor is important, as is you the parent. It wasn't just my niece who needed to read Billy Budd or The Scarlett Letter or [gulp] The Northwest Ordinance. You are as well. To be honest, I did not read everyone of her assignments, but I read a fair share and we had great discussions and even arguments that prepared her for class.

 

As for the math, you have a couple of options. One, you can do your own math at home and have them participate in the class. Even if it is below their level, repetition is a good thing. Getting things to be automatic is important imho. You could also opt out of the math class.

 

The goal of Challenge is to cement knowlege and understanding while getting wisdom.

 

HTH.

 

 

[As a point of order, I am a Challenge A Director. However, I will in no way be compensated for the above opinions. :tongue_smilie:]

[Julie]

Pam thanks for your input, great to hear that a child who did not have a classical bent was able to do well.

 

I was able to speak briefly with the Challenge B tutor, she seems really on the ball. She told me that all CC classes A. B and 1-4 are designed to offer HS credit, anyone have any thoughts on this? My son is going in to 9th grade and in looking at the web site Challenge B seems to be a MS course. Unfortunately B is the highest level that is being offered where I am.

[curtisandsheri]

My son has done Challenges A, B, and 1 and we've been very pleased with all three. He loves getting to attend weekly classes with the other kids, participating in debates and discussions, and completing labs. The positive peer pressure and accountability have been fantastic for him. He makes sure all of his work is not only complete, but that it's well done because he knows he's going to have to present it in class.

Because so much of the class time involves presenting work, participating in discussions, or doing labs, we do not change the assignments or reading even though I'm allowed to do so as his primary teacher. He doesn't want to be unprepared or unable to participate in class. We do not use Saxon at home (we love Lial, thanks to Jann in TX), but he has gone to the math seminar as a review. We have to be there anyway and it doesn't hurt to review. Occasionally I'll see a new curriculum or hear a friend talk about how much she loves what they are using and I'll wish we could use it. The feeling passes, however, when I think about how well Challenge is working for him. Relinquishing curriculum choice wasn't easy, especially at first because it's so much fun, but now I enjoy the freedom.

 

Sheri

[newlifemom]

Pam thanks for your input, great to hear that a child who did not have a classical bent was able to do well.

 

I was able to speak briefly with the Challenge B tutor, she seems really on the ball. She told me that all CC classes A. B and 1-4 are designed to offer HS credit, anyone have any thoughts on this? My son is going in to 9th grade and in looking at the web site Challenge B seems to be a MS course. Unfortunately B is the highest level that is being offered where I am.

 

Well certainly you can make it high school worthy. A is iffy, but B can be done. I have not worked out those credits, but I know across the country others have. You should ask your director. He/She may ask the state manager for assistance wrt assigning credit for high school.

[Julie]

Sheri, thanks for sharing your experiences, my kids do really well in a class setting and some healthy competition. Oddly enough they both like to do presentations, and that aspect of CC along with the debate and world view just sound fantastic. I would like to hear why you are so pleased with Liles if you have a moment, I will do a search later when I have more time. I probably would not switch my son, but my daughter is not mathy at all and the prospect of doing Chalkdust makes her cringe.

 

Pam thank you so much for your input!! I will talk to the director and see what can be done in that regard. My biggest worry is probably the science. I definitely see the advantage to just having him sit in the Algebra class and keeping it fresh. This will work to my advantage when my daughter begins it next year, mayhap he can tutor her instead of me. :)

 

It appears to me from the books in the catalog that the science is mainly reading, is there labs in B?

[G5052]

It appears to me from the books in the catalog that the science is mainly reading, is there labs in B?

 

First semester is a study of the history of science with weekly papers, second semester is creationism and a basic introduction to chemistry.

 

I was concerned about the science, but my Challenge B student is not science-oriented and we decided to let it ride as-is and then do some hands-on chemistry this summer. This was for 8th, so that was fine here.

 

Challenge Directors are indeed very special people. I've considered it here and there, but I have been concerned about the impact on the education of my own children and have decided to wait until my youngest is in high school.

[Julie]

Thanks for your insight on the science class, do you think there is any way to beef it up and create a 9th grade HS level course.

[G5052]

Do you plan to continue with CC? I ask because they use physical science in Challenge I, and don't allow switching between sciences (just math and Latin). So you would have to keep that in mind.

 

A friend of mine turned the Challenge B science into physical science by making sure that the fair project fit into that area, then she added chemistry and physics with via hands-on projects and had her student make a notebook with write-ups. They did not continue with Challenge I, so that worked fine for them.

[amtmcm]

 

A friend of mine turned the Challenge B science into physical science by making sure that the fair project fit into that area, then she added chemistry and physics with via hands-on projects and had her student make a notebook with write-ups. They did not continue with Challenge I, so that worked fine for them.

 

That's a good idea.

 

DD14 just completed Challenge B and will be attending Challenge 1 this year. She will be doing Conceptual Physics at home instead of Physical Science. The Physical Science labs completed in class may suffice as labs for Conceptual Physics, depending on your student's goals. My DD wants to go into a science field so we'll be using LabPaq labs at home. But I think this might be overkill for a student not leaning towards a career in science.

 

For Challenge B, I was very, very pleased with the skills acquired during the course of the year. The research skills my daughter learned are incredibly valuable. For History of Science, she researched a scientist each week and wrote an element of a research paper, then in Current Events she researched the topic being discussed and wrote a persuasive essay or prepared for a debate, for Defeating Darwinism she outlined the text (a la WTM) and defended her beliefs. On top of the Logic taught in class, the debate exercises are outstanding for preparing our children to defend any topic (including their faith in college).

 

My DD can write an excellent 5 paragraph essay and we worked very hard on this skill before attending CC, but I was struggling to teach her research skills. CC's process was so natural and gradual - each week built on the skills learned during the previous week, and then students applied all these new skills in the spring semester during Mock Trial. It was great! I'm happy with the results and I'm happy knowing she will take these skills with her into high school and college.

 

Since you were asking about Math, I'll comment that we don't use Saxon, but the class discussion about math concepts is beneficial. DD would occasionally get to a topic in her text and say she remembered covering it in class at CC. And since topics are covered in different order, sometimes things she had already covered at home would be reinforced in class. The latter will be the case for your DS, and it may give him the opportunity to practice leadership skills during math class.

 

If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.

[Brenda in FL]

Well certainly you can make it high school worthy. A is iffy, but B can be done. I have not worked out those credits, but I know across the country others have. You should ask your director. He/She may ask the state manager for assistance wrt assigning credit for high school.

 

I can only add that htis is basically what I have been told as well. That once they've gone through Challenge III, they do have enough credits to graduate high school. This would be our scenario with my son starting Challenge A in 8th grade. But I haven't gotten the details to figure it out.

 

I did see a CC document that showed how the credits work out compared to public high school - I will look later and link to it if I can find it.

[G5052]

We held to high standards at home and put a lot of effort into Mock Trial because my student was an attorney. Given the whole picture, it was the right choice for our family this last year, and we are looking forward to Challenge I in August. After 2011-2012, we'll have some decisions to make, but one year at a time...

[Julie]

Great thoughts and input ladies thank you all so much! Does anyone have any suggestions/book ideas to make the B science more labish? Into to Chemistry was mentioned would there be a way to springboard off that?

 

If CC was successful, yes I could see us continuing with it and that sort of creates a further science dilemma......without some tweaking this would leave him doing the Physical Science in 10th grade, and I don't think that is a very good plan. Before I stumbled across CC I my plan was for him to do Bio this year.

 

Overall this looks like it would be a great fit for the family not sure how to work out this science. I don't see him going into a field where science will be crucial, probably a business or pre law major.

 

If my area were offering Challenge 1 I would put him there and live with the Physical science but alas.....

[angela in ohio]

I started a CC program in my area, and I Directed Challenge A two years ago with a group of 12 students, including my two.

 

The quality depends mostly on the Tutor/Director. Ask many, many questions. What is their experience teaching Latin and math and writing, especially? Look for prior experience! For Challenge A, they should have experience teaching IEW, even if just to their own dc. They should have a clear idea of how they will teach study and thinking skills in the course of the program, as well as a deep understanding of the classical method. They should be experienced in grading writing assignments and managing group discussions. For Challenge B, they need to have experience in debate. These are not co-op classes; the tutor is well-paid, and there should be an expectation of experience and professionalism.

 

For us, even with me making it as challenging as possible within the confines of the program, it wasn't rigorous enough in the areas of science and math. We supplemented several subjects at home. I had a range of students, though, and for some who had not done as much reading or writing during K-6, it was a challenge for them to keep up with the writing and Saxon.

 

Challenge A is not high school credit worthy, imho, unless the parent adds a lot at home, but I don't know about Challenge B. The literature is upper elementary to junior high, for example. The only thing that is close to high school level is the amount of writing. You could choose a higher Saxon level, if your campus offers that, though, and that would be high school level.

Edited June 11, 2011 by angela in ohio

[Brenda in FL]

Here's the document that outlines the credits that could be given for going through all 4 levels of Challenge at the HS level. Scroll down towards the end.

 

CC credits

[Julie]

Angela, thanks so much for you input, it has been very helpful!

 

Branda great link, I found what you were talking about.

[G5052]

IThe quality depends mostly on the Tutor/Director. Ask many, many questions. What is their experience teaching Latin and math and writing, especially? Look for prior experience! For Challenge A, they should have experience teaching IEW, even if just to their own dc. They should have a clear idea of how they will teach study and thinking skills in the course of the program, as well as a deep understanding of the classical method. They should be experienced in grading writing assignments and managing group discussions. For Challenge B, they need to have experience in debate. These are not co-op classes; the tutor is well-paid, and there should be an expectation of experience and professionalism.

 

 

Ask lots of questions beyond the curriculum. Your student will spend 30 weeks with this person, having them give assignments, evaluate their work, and control what happens in class. It will be agony if they're not experienced and professional in their approach. As the parent of a high school student, I don't feel like I can delegate that level of control in my homeschooling unless it is truly going to be an outstanding experience beyond what I can provide myself.

Edited June 11, 2011 by GVA