For all you moms of high schoolers...tell me about math programs over the long haul

[muffinmom]

I'm just starting out with first grade. Just wondering if any of you have been homeschooling since elem. grades--if so, what MATH programs have borne themselves out over the long-term as well-rounded and effective. I'd like to know which programs, if you stick with them, really bear fruit of skills and understanding.

 

Any advice on this?

 

Thanks!

 

Melanee

[kathleen]

I have homeschooled all the way through using Saxon, beginning with Saxon 54 in 3rd grade (when we began, many moons ago, Saxon didn't have their early years program). We went all the way through Advanced Math, and it worked very well for my boys, both in terms of understanding and in SAT scores (if that's important to you).

[Brenda in MA]

and he used Saxon 1 in K, and then Singapore 1 - 6. He is ready to transition to Algebra now, and Singapore does a wonderful job developing critical thinking and helping the child be able to attack problems in several different ways. You do need to supplement with math facts practice, and we found doing some mixed review on an ongoing basis to be helpful as well. I used Daily Math Practice for that.

 

My other son, who is an entirely different thinker, used Saxon from gr 4 - 10, and is now using Chalkdust PreCalc. His ACT math score was excellent.

 

I think there are a lot of good programs out there. You really need to find one that you like and can teach, and also one that suits the learning style of the student. I think it's reasonable to expect that if you start with something in gr 1, you might have to make a change or two down the line. However, I don't think it's wise to jump around and change programs every year.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[Alyce]

from 1st grade (that's when we started) through to Pre-Calculus and it has worked well for my dd. She is majoring in dance so doesn't need a heavy math course. She liked it and has learned alot. I love that my kids can do things in their brains and don't need calculators etc. My son is a different story. We used MUS with him until Geometry. He did great with MUS until we hit highschool. Once in Algebra he needed a little more explanations than MUS gives. We used TT this year for Geometry and it was too light and he's having trouble retaining. We will switch to Lial's next year. He's starting to use it now and he really likes' it but I believe Lial's is only good for upper level math. If I had it over to do again I would still go with MUS, I don't think there is a better program out there that teaches the basics the way MUS but for upper level math I would have done something else.

[8filltheheart]

I have only homeschooled one from K all the way through homeschool graduation. He is now a chemical engineering major. (He has completed all three semesters of calculus with high As and is taking differential equations this summer)

 

He used Horizons through 6

MUS alg/geo combo book for pre-alg/pre-geo

Foerster alg 1

Larson geo

Saxon alg 2 (that was a mistake b/c he didn't learn anything new for over 1/2 the book and was not as far as he needed to be for pre-cal)

Foerster pre-cal for 1 semester followed by Larson's pre-cal the 2nd semester (I put him with a tutor b/c I couldn't manage it anymore)

dual enrollment

 

For all my other kids I am sticking with Larson or Foerster for high school choices. (FWIW....Larson's series is what is used by his engineering school)

[Maverick]

I started homeschooling with a first grader and a Pre-K-er. A friend recommended SRA Math Applications and Explorations so I picked it up right off the bat and we stuck with it for K-6. I really love it! I think it provides the best combination of manipulatives and memorization, and really teaches mathematical thinking from the start. My kids are confident at math and not afraid of word problems or any other type of math problem. My older ds is doing geometry, chemistry, and formal logic this year as a 9th grader and his math skills have definitely stood up to the challenge. After finishing the SRA series in 6th you can use the Open Court Real math for 7th and 8th if necessary. I found that just the 7th grade book was a great pre-algebra curriculum and after finishing that ds did Jacobs algebra and geometry. My younger ds is naturally good at math and he aced the algebra readiness test after completing the SRA 6th grade book! He did Foerster Algebra I and is now in Jacobs Geometry. The SRA books are not readily available at the usual homeschool retailers; I got mine from Math-n-Stuff in Seattle (they take phone & online orders).

 

http://www.math-n-stuff.com/curriculum.html

[tbmoran]

We've used Saxon from 5/4 to Advanced Math. Then we have switched to Lial Precalculus and Foerster Precalculus. We tried Saxon Calculus but it didn't work for us.

[muffinmom]

I've never heard of Foerster or Larson--can you describe these?

 

Thanks.

[Storm Bay]

We're just getting into high school but are already into Algebra. My eldest did ps for K-2, but then Saxon for 3 years, along with a bit of Singapore Math. My younger two mainly do Singapore Math, which over all I love. It does a good job of helping kids learn to think mathematically. My brother, who teaches post-secondary physics, says that the two biggest weaknesses he sees in high school graduates is the lack of thinking and logic abilities. For example, they may know how to factor well in Algebra, but when they come to Calculus the can't see when they have to factor.

 

They also do MUS to help with mastery (but it's not required with SM) and because my 10 yo vs learner has needed to see Mr. Demme demonstrate a couple of things before she was willing to do them. Regrouping, for example. She thought it a complete waste of time until she saw him teach it. She's also the kind of child who has to set up the entire shape of a problem before she'll solve it, unlike my other two who write it out the "normal" way.

 

If you were to choose Saxon or MUS, etc, I'd recommend getting the Challenging Word Problems that go with Singapore Math anyway as they are wonderful for learning to think through word problems. Saxon has some benefits, but word problems are one of its biggest weaknesses; it just doesn't have very good ones. The other, for my eldest, was way too much repetition so we ended up skipping chapters and chapters in every book. Some kids, however, really benefit from a lot of repetition.

[Laura K (NC)]

My oldest, a mathy, adventurous type, did pretty well with SRA, but he floundered in pre-algebra (Saxon 1/2) He's doing well again in math, but I think SRA was a hinderance more than a help.

 

My second son, now in Saxon 7/6, did not do well with SRA at all, and neither is my youngest doing well, and he's VERY mathy. I hate the Saxon repetition, and I gravitated to the variety offered in the SRA text out of rebelliousness for Saxon, but I think that was an error on my part. To me, SRA introduces too many advanced concepts in math too soon without giving proper introduction, and it doesn't review basic arithmetic enough and starts out on algebra too soon. My youngest right now is doing the 6th grade book and is doing linear functions. He's being asked to do "function rules," or figuring out the linear equation, but there hasn't been near enough exposure on how to graph simple lines and parabolas, or even a simple introduction to slope and x or y intercepts. The word "slope" isn't in the index. When he was finding the circumference of a circle I had to look all around the text for the simple equation, and most of the text was a directed proof on how to find the value of pi to so many digits. It just wasn't necessary and it isn't reviewed later on so any work will be forgotten.

 

As much as I dislike Saxon, and understand why my kids dislike Saxon, I think the drill-and-kill is the best and most accessible review for most students. I don't think elementary school kids in the grammar stage need to be worrying about logic stage applications... even in 5th and 6th grade. Saxon is noted for its formulaic word problems, but I think the word problem system, as canned as it is, set up a logical way of thinking that can then be expanded when a student is older and more capable of abstract problem-solving. So I'm a fan of Saxon through pre-algebra, or at least through 7/6.

 

I've done only limited work with Singapore. I think it's a good problem to supplement, but I don't think it stands alone. I used it with A Beka with success with my oldest before he got into SRA in 4th grade.

 

For pre-algebra I've used Saxon 1/2 which moves really fast, and I think Saxon 8/7 is preferable for our family. Next year I'm going to try Lial's BCM for a second year of pre-algebra with my 8th grader who still isn't thinking mathematically and is not developmentally ready for algebra. I think that will be an excellent textbook for him and I can't wait to get him started on it.

 

For algebra I can't sing the praises of Foerster enough. It's so methodical... it's the polar opposite of SRA. It made my oldest son into a math whiz... just set his mind in the right direction. Every weakness in Saxon's word problems melted away into an orderly foundation for the thinking problems Foerster hands out. I don't think Singapore all the way through would have provided a firmer foundation for any of my kids than Saxon.

 

Now, if I had a perfectly brilliant math child who can order things in his mind all by himself, SRA might work, but Singapore would work better. Saxon might not work as well. Most of us don't have children in that category. Even my most math-bright son, my youngest, needs order and progression in math and I am glad to be rid of the SRA completely this year.

 

Anybody want to buy SRA grades 4, 5, and 6, cheap? :)

[AngieW in Texas]

My favorite math sequence is Miquon followed by Singapore 3A-6B.

 

My oldest started off with MUS, but after that blew up in our faces, we switched to Miquon and the lightbulb went off. I suddenly had a dd who was VERY strong in math. I did need to supplement with some of the Key to books for extra work on fractions, decimals, and percents with my oldest. She did prealgebra at ps and then did Jacobs Algebra at home last year and Jacobs Geometry this year.

 

My middle dd did Miquon and then Singapore. I didn't need to supplement for her at all. I even cut out some of the reviews, because Singapore had too much review for her. She did one month of pre-algebra with aleks (but didn't like it) and then did Math Smart Junior over the summer. Now she's working through two algebra programs - Jacobs Algebra and Kinetic Books Algebra. Both are complete programs, but she likes having two programs to switch between. She'll use Jacobs Geometry next year.

 

My youngest is dyslexic. Miquon didn't work for her at all. Singapore worked well for her at first, but then she hit a wall in 3A. I switched to several other programs and then came back to Singapore for her several months ago. Singapore seems to be going okay for her now. She is doing the textbook only and does it one-on-one with me. Instead of doing a full "lesson" each day, she works for 20 minutes and we stop wherever we are at that time.

[mktkcb]

My oldest will be a Senior next year. She did Miquon in 1-3, then Singapore 3b-6b, NEM 1-3A, switched to Blitzer Precalc (college level precalc). She is very solid in math. Middle dd did Miquon/Sing combo in 1-3, then Singapore through 5B. Struggled through parts of NSM1, Jacobs, & a few other things. She is in 9th now, and doing Aleks for Alg 1. I'm thankful for the foundation of Miq/Sing, but she just does NOT get math in general. It wouldn't have mattered what we used. Ds, 11, did Miq/Sing 1-6, parts of NSM1, and is now doing Kinetic books Alg 1. He is a bit math accelerated, but motor skills challenged, so Kinetic books keeps him motivated without making him write so much as to be discouraging. He's only in 5th grade, so when he finishes KB, I'll probably have him do Aleks to solidify the Alg. while doing Geometry at the same time. Nothing like having a 5th grader and a 9th grader doing the same level math.....sigh. I do love the Miquon Singapore combination, though, personally. And yet math is so subjective. There are many roads to success.

Kayleen

[8filltheheart]

Foerster is a heavy word problem based alg serier. Larson is the series used with the Chalkdust vidoes. Foerster does not have a geo book.

[Mad Jenny Flint]

DS, 13: Saxon gr. 1&2, then Singapore 2B - 6B, now moving on to the Lial sequence. Might use Teaching Textbooks with supplementation or Chalkdust for Geometry.

 

DD, 9: Singapore 1A - 3B. Plan to try Lial with her when the time comes.

[Melinda]

Hi, I'm new here but what is MUS? My ds is going into K in the fall and so far we've only used Saxon.

[Nan in Mass]

The youngest did math informally with me (no writing), then when he could write (at about 7) he began Singapore PM with 1B. The older one did Chicago Everyday Math in ps until he came home in 5th. By that time, he was a mass of misconceptions which took years to straighten out. We used Saxon 5/6 for a year but it chops the math into so many little pieces that he was incapable of putting it together into the big picture and applying it. He began PM with 3A in 6th grade. He still struggles, but Singapore straightened out the misconceptions and "fixed" him so he could think mathematically. That is saying a LOT. The youngest is finishing NEM1 now and the older one finished NEM3 and will do pre-calc at CC next year. We didn't suppliment except for Keys to Algebra 1-3 after the first few chapters of NEM1 (to cement all those little algebra rules and make them automatic). Singapore has advantages and disadvantages. I've written about them lots recently (you can search for Nan in Mass and NEM to see), but most of it boils down to this: Singapore teaches mathematical thinking well, but there is a price to pay, which is that eventually the child needs to make the switch to writing out all the steps, not just doing it in their heads. There are two important chapters in NEM1, one that teaches this and one that teaches how to apply formulae. You have to be careful not to just zap through those, but to really work with them and help the child apply them to something other than NEM, like their science. I'd rather have a child think mathematically and have to work on writing down how he got that correct answer than have a child who was plugging through the algorithms but not understanding them. It also doesn't teach things in the standard US order, so when you go to do the SATs, if you are late starting the sequence (like my oldest), you will want to suppliment a bit to cover functions, slope-intercept form, statistics, and paraballas in more detail.

HTH

-Nan

[mcconnellboys]

Singapore! Although I couldn't use it for high school because of my own lack of skills.

[Alyce]

MUS is Math U See. It is a mastery based program that uses manipulatives to help students "see" the math. It teaches math in a new and interesting way. Mastery is the key. You learn all about addition and when you know all then you move on the subtraction, then multiplication, then division, then fractions etc. We used it and it really solidified math in my kids brains. You used manipulatives so the student can "see and solve" the problem and then we he understands you remove the manipulatives and he does them in his head. I highly recommend MUS. They have a free demo DVD you can get if you go to their website.

[Storm Bay]

MUS is Math U See. It is a mastery based program that uses manipulatives to help students "see" the math. It teaches math in a new and interesting way. Mastery is the key. You learn all about addition and when you know all then you move on the subtraction, then multiplication, then division, then fractions etc. We used it and it really solidified math in my kids brains. You used manipulatives so the student can "see and solve" the problem and then we he understands you remove the manipulatives and he does them in his head. I highly recommend MUS. They have a free demo DVD you can get if you go to their website.

 

And I would feel free to check this out for a child with dyslexia because of its visual and manipulative nature. MUS failed for one of mine, but really helped with another. I think for a mathy child MUS is not enough, but there are things about it I really appreciate for certain learning styles. Not enough mental math and the word problems are nothing spectactular, but those can be augmented if it works well for your child.

[Maverick]

It's a good thing there is so much variety available so we can all find what works for us and our kids! I only know two other families who used SRA and they were happy with it, but that's a pretty small sample size for my informal survey. :D

 

I don't want to argue with you, but I would like to continue this conversation a bit so that those who are deciding on elementary math curriculums can learn a bit more about the strengths and weaknesses of the different programs. I hope you don't mind.

 

You said, "To me, SRA introduces too many advanced concepts in math too soon without giving proper introduction, and it doesn't review basic arithmetic enough and starts out on algebra too soon."

 

For me, the advanced concepts and algebra introduction were a big plus. I can see why some people would not want those introduced so early, but probably because of my background as a junior high math teacher where I saw so many kids come into pre-algebra and algebra absolutely freaked out by variables and funtions, I think introducing them early gets kids used to the ideas so they are not so scary later on. Also, my kids loved the way the concepts were introduced via the "Thinking Stories." Regarding the basic arithmetic review, it is true that there is not enough of it in the texts themselves. SRA has a game pack that is intended for arithmetic review, and it is a lot of fun to play dice games and board games that reinforce the facts. I also used Calculadders speed drills when I didn't have time to sit down and play games with the kids, but they loved the games and they really worked. I don't know if you used the game pack or not, but imo the program is not complete w/o it.

 

You mentioned that you don't like the review in Saxon--I taught Saxon 87 at a charter school one year and I really hated the randomness of the organization. For one thing, there are not enough problems on each new topic, and for another, having a lesson on adding fractions followed by a lesson on vertical angles, followed by a lesson on ratios drove me nuts! Just my personality, I think. :)

 

One thing we can agree on--Foerster Algbra is great! I had one ds doing Jacobs and one in Foerster at the same time and I loved the Foerster so much more (nothing wrong with Jacobs--it's just not as in-depth and mathematical. Next to Foerster it felt like algebra "lite"). I just got Foerster's Algebra and Trig text for Algebra II next year and I'm so excited to use it--I really like his style.

 

I actually might be interested in your SRA for a lady at my co-op. I got rid of mine when my kids were done with it and now I'm kind of sorry because I've occasionally been asked about it and it's hard to explain and hard to find samples. PM me with your asking price if you are serious about selling. :)

[Laura K (NC)]

You mentioned that you don't like the review in Saxon--I taught Saxon 87 at a charter school one year and I really hated the randomness of the organization. For one thing, there are not enough problems on each new topic, and for another, having a lesson on adding fractions followed by a lesson on vertical angles, followed by a lesson on ratios drove me nuts! Just my personality, I think. :)

 

That aspect really drove me nuts when we first started using Saxon. I think the difference with Saxon is the teacher. When we used Saxon the first time around my son would not get long division when it was first introduced, and then he wouldn't get it again when there was a problem in the next lesson, and again in the next lesson it really wasn't much better. I did find the long division explanations in Saxon better than in A Beka, though. This year my middle son, using 8/7, is using a video tutor and then I do more teaching. As we review for each test and he goes back over the problems he has missed, the missed problems turn into a concept that needs more review, and it's clearly learned or not learned in the long term memory, not just the short term memory, because it is revisited so often. The concepts get learned, even though it's not the most fun way to learn them.

 

I agree with Saxon that it's not laid out as well as, er, Foerster, but of all the math programs I've tried it seems to do the best job... for our family. :)

[Langhaven]

My oldest is finishing 10th grade - so take this for what it is worth. We have used Saxon exclusively up to 9th grade. We were given advice that Saxon is good through the elementary and junior high years but once the student gets to the more advanced math it loses its effectiveness as it does not teach strong concepts in application. We did change to Chicago Math and can see a big difference in comprehension as well as challenge in thinking and not just answering with rote knowlege. Saxon seems to be more formulaic in approach to problems.

 

That being said, my ds took the PSAT this past year for practice, and scored quite well in the math areas that he had taken through Saxon (which would have been Algebra 1 with some Geometry).

 

For what it's worth!