Kind-of changing the way I look at religion

[Onceuponatime]

The one certainty I've heard you articulate is in Jesus. If I were you, I would poke at that, challenge it, stir it up a bit, and see what surfaces (not, again, to try to change that conviction, but because those core certainties need to be the foundation for our spiritual journeys.) I've found that in my times of spiritual growth, my certainties lead me, inevitably, but not straightforwardly or easily, to the area I need to work on, that I need to study, that I need to work through.

 

 

 

 

This is what I have been doing, asking myself why I am even certain of those things which I don't question. It has led to me to some very strange places by looking at scripture with all preconceptions laid aside. Now I wonder if we humans really can understand the true nature of God through our humanity, and do we really grasp what Jesus was trying to say about himself and his relationship to God?

[JadeOrchidSong]

:iagree: Mary was allowed a special grace of not being born with original sin because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus. But that doesn't mean her mother was a virgin.

Where does the Bible show this point? Do I miss something?

[Onceuponatime]

Where does the Bible show this point? Do I miss something?

 

The Bible doesn't show it, it is part of Catholic tradition.

[Melinda in VT]

So I have begun to wonder if I shouldn't split my Truth ball in two. Jesus & my own faith on the one hand; community, culture, churchlife on the other. They should *generally* mesh, but I'd no longer feel compelled to find something that I agreed w/ completely OR to squish myself into a belief system that doesn't fit at the moment (I'm open to being changed, of course).

 

For me a lot depends on how welcoming the church is of questioning and of differences. My spiritual journey took a sharp turn about 10 years ago and during the few months I spent in transition out of my church, I felt stifled and spiritually drained because being open about what I was thinking and feeling was just not an option.

 

On the other hand, when I attend the exploratory class for potential members at my new church, we read the Nicene Creed (or maybe the Apostles Creed) aloud and then the teacher asked, "Which parts of this really resonate with you? Which parts make you uncomfortable?" Just knowing that I was in a place where I could admit that parts of it made me uncomfortable and talk about what and why, was a tremendous relief.

 

I don't fit in with my denomination 100%, but I never feel like I have to hide that.

[Melinda in VT]

Let's start here (okay, at least this is where we started when we began our conversion process). Why do we think we have to find a church that we agree with? It's like saying we have to find a Savior we agree with. He's either the Savior or He's not. The church is either the church -- or it's not. Why limit the Body of Christ to our own understanding? I realize not everyone processes it this way, and that's fine. But what a relief it was when I realized I didn't have to figure all this out! The church didn't have to make sense to me, it just IS. And I have to decide if I want to be a part of it or not. It's pretty humbling to come up against something that hits us "wrong" and realize it's US that might be wrong.

 

Now I realize this all assumes that we can find the tangible church that Christ started -- and not everyone believes that's possible. But for us we realized that nothing is impossible with God and His original church still exists in its designed purity and fullness (the people aren't pure and whole, Lord have mercy on us all, but Christ's Body, the Church, is). We ended up asking ourselves, if this church does still exist, why would we not be a part of it?

 

ETA -- I know you have looked at this same church and found it wanting, so I'm not addressing that; I'm just focusing on the above quote in the thinking-it-through process.

 

I hear what you are saying, but . . . I (for one) have already Been There, Done That with thinking I was in the tangible church that Christ started. So when there were things that hit me wrong, I did figure it was me who was wrong and tried to feel or belief what I was supposed to feel or believe.

 

And then I realized that I had been mistaken and this was not the church Christ started. And that I had said or done things that had hurt people because I was trying to fit in with doctrine or teachings that weren't true after all.

 

So I find myself very, very wary of dismissing those inner voices that say X or Y is wrong just because a church (any church) says they are right. And yes, I realize that I may be totally wrong about a lot of things, but I just have to trust that God will lead me to where I am supposed to end up. And I'm constantly seeking to know whether my beliefs are part of the big ball of truth. (Eliana explained it perfectly.)

 

Sorry this got so long. I really enjoy reading your posts about your faith journey.

[MamaSheep]

Ok, after reading this & thinking about what I've said, I think I know where I've messed up the conversation. I listed things I don't believe; I did not mean that at all as a list of things that are not true. I *do* see truth as outside of and above me.

 

"Believing" something is ubiquitous, & I'm not even sure that's the right word. There are things I'm sure I believe, w/out sense or reason. There are things I believe because of sense & reason. There are things I'm not sure about, don't mind talking about, but may not ever feel compelled to stake a claim on one way or the other.

 

But there are things I don't believe. They could be true. They could be untrue. When I approach these things, I do so w/ my heart and my head, reason and faith. I cannot force belief if it's not there, but I can be respectful & open. For this reason, I try to avoid dogma and IS statements.

 

Just wanted to say I can really relate to these things.

 

I would say that my feelings toward the denomination I'm considering (& it's really fallacious to call it that, but lack of better terms & all) tend toward...a heart-level pull. If I hear God call, my head doesn't matter much. If I can wrap my head around it & accept it, I'd say that's as good as a call from God. But 1 out of 3 doesn't quite get me there unless I put off my Aubrey head & call the level of agreement I have at present with this group to be Good Enough.

 

Then I get to think about subgroups. Which I'd prefer to be based on distance from my house; unfortunately, it's the same conversation all over again because the subgroups are as vehemently different from ea other as the beginning groups. :lol:

 

For me, hearing God call would be most compelling, followed closely by being able to wrap my head around it and have it make sense in context with...well...with life. The heart-level pull is also important, but not most critical, for me. It's nicest when all three pulls tug in the same direction, of course, and I think that is what God wants us to seek. But I think it's a journey as much as it is a destination, and I think sometimes He gives us experiences along the road to teach us things that will help us be ready for that conjunction once we find it. I think sometimes we appreciate the whole 'truth ball' more if we discover it bit by bit and have to work a bit for it, rather than just having it handed to us with no thought or effort. I think God wants us not only to have the information, but to have the experience of asking the questions--of NEEDING to know, and knowing that we need it, if you see what I mean. The information is the same, but it means more that way. Even after one finds that conjunction, where all the 'pulls' unequivocally lead to the same place, I think there is still great need of further learning and growth. It's still more of a process than an event--even after you find the path, you still have to walk down it. In my opinion.

 

As far as your original question...I am not sure how one would separate the nitty gritty day-to-day stuff of life from one's doctrine or theology, as it seems to me that we each act out our deep beliefs in the way we live our lives. But I do think that people with differing ideas of doctrine and theology can still have similarities in culture and life choices, and hanging out with people who are in the kind of 'current' of life that we want to be in can be a very good thing. Through most of my life, up until the past few years, I have lived in places where there were few people who shared my doctrine/theology, but I have always found that there were people who shared at least some similar values and customs, and I have found great strength in their friendship even though we disagreed about even some very crucial aspects of faith. I have learned a lot from them, both about their beliefs, and about my own as I viewed them through different 'lenses'. (BTW I share with you your annoyance at people who just assume that I think as I do due to ignorance or superficiality.) I think it's fine to hang with people who have some of the same bits of the 'truth ball' that I have, even if we disagree about other bits, so long as it is a strengthening, building, healthy association, not a destructive one. Friendly support from people with whom you disagree about some things is better, in my experience, than being entirely alone with no support at all.

 

And we can't live our lives in constant limbo, we have to move in SOME direction so we don't just stagnate. Sometimes we have to just be able to admit that we don't know which fork in the road is the "right" one, and we have to pick one, at least for now, and see where it goes. Sometimes we might have to backtrack and try another one, but at least then we have learned something (if nothing more than 'don't go there'), and that's better than standing at the crossroad with our fingers in our mouths collecting cobwebs of uncertainty and waiting for someone to come along and tell us what to do. I think God will guide our steps, if we're taking steps, and I think He will help us know as we go along whether we are heading in the right direction or not. Sometimes it's a bit of a game of "hot or cold", where we have to move in some direction in order to get feedback. We can't just stand around being "lukewarm" and expect to be told where the prize is.

 

In my opinion. For what it's worth.

[TravelingChris]

Well in terms of denominations, we are soon going to be trying to find where we belong n a new community for us. BUt I don't got searching on my own and neither does my husband. We search as a couple and with our children in mind. My husband and I agree on a lot of points theologically and we choose churches that follow those points. We basically are able to agree to the Apostle's Creed and we are sola scriptura people. That simply narrows us down to Protestant churches. Then, because we believe all of our baptisms were valid, that narrows the field more. BUt we still have lots of choices. We have had a number of interviews for membership in different churches. Not one ever asked us anything tricky in theology; the only questions were always based on very fundamental beliefs like the Apostles' creed. So yes, we could join a number of denominations- Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Lutheran, and probably some others. But there are ones we wouldn't join because of discomfort with a core practice- Baptist, AOG, etc. and others we couldn't join because of fundamental differences in belief- Roman Catholicism as one. I don;t know what I would do if dh suddenly came to me and said, I want to go back to the Catholic Church. But I don't think I would follow and that would put disharmony in our marriage. (I can't see dh doing that since he is even less of a fan of Catholic theology than I am). Oh and I am not anti-Catholic in that I totally respect that others have different beliefs but they are just not for me.

[Greta]

Of course, and you might want to CC Patty Joanna and/or Mommaduck and/or Father of Pearl, etc. too, perhaps. I'm not an expert on the EO faith (!!) and the understanding and veneration of Mary is still one of "those" issues for me.

 

Thank you so much! But in thinking through how to even formulate my question, I decided to do a little online reading on the subject, and I found the answer. Or if not THE answer, an answer that satisfied me. :001_smile:

[texasmama]

No; I feel the need to be labeled. :lol: And I have a hard time going to church when I don't fit moderately well. It's like wearing the wrong size shoes: it hurts.

 

If you were to look simply at the facts of my life, you would assume I was a particular denomination. This has been true of me almost since I got married. What I am suggesting is that this means that I am, essentially, that denomination. I *fit.* Even if I don't completely fit.

 

I am currently at a church which doesn't really fit me in many ways, and I have more questions than answers about many spiritual issues, most of which I hold quietly in my heart because some of it really does "feel" heretical. I love and trust Jesus, but I'm kind of conflicted about God, for instance. I've lost faith in organized religion of any sort at this stage in my life, and yet I feel "stuck" attending church because my dh and my kids go. It feels "wrong" to go and "wrong" not to. I agree with the shoe analogy. The whole thing hurts my heart...and I haven't a clue what to do about it, if anything. You are not alone, Aubrey.

[Carol in Cal.]

Ok, if you know I'm not saying that, then I'm confused about the whole paragraph. I agree w/ you, but...?

 

I guess it's shorthand for, "I don't think that this is what you're saying, certainly it didn't come across that way, but if you were, by any chance, this little point of mine would be worth considering." Because you never sound like you're saying those things, but that's because I've seen you post elsewhere, and some of what you say here could be construed that way, but I don't think that's what you mean, because of other posts.

[Scarlett]

I guess it's shorthand for, "I don't think that this is what you're saying, certainly it didn't come across that way, but if you were, by any chance, this little point of mine would be worth considering." Because you never sound like you're saying those things, but that's because I've seen you post elsewhere, and some of what you say here could be construed that way, but I don't think that's what you mean, because of other posts.

 

Hee heee......you made me dizzy. The scary part is I totally understand what you are saying.

[Carol in Cal.]

Hee heee......you made me dizzy. The scary part is I totally understand what you are saying.

 

See, that's why I originally went with the shorthand. Useful thing, shorthand...