How to explain something in Harry Potter

[Mrs Mungo]

It seems to me that Snape is not loyal to Dumbledore and does not love him. He loves Lili, for ever and always, obsessively, and goes to Dumbledore because of his love for her (or maybe Dumbledore approaches him because he knows of his love for her, I can't remember which.) Either way, it's the basis for his work with Dumbledore and his support of DA, which is grudging though very brave and effective. Dumbledore never entirely trusts him, although he entrusts a great TO him. Dumbledore never gives up on him, though.

 

I think most people assume that he initially leaves the DE and joins the OOtP in order to save Lily. However, there is nothing to suggest he didn't or doesn't love Dumbledore. Look at what a jerk Malofy is, he can't kill Dumbledore directly even with his family and life at stake, he has an innate love and respect for him. Snape is only able to do it because Dumbledore warned him previously about it, because of the unbreakable curse, because Dumbledore *begged* him at the end.

 

It is repeatedly stated that Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly and that's the only reason most of the other trust Snape.

 

He bears a genuine, tremendous, unreasonable resentment toward HP, even though he is protecting him. And it shows in his treatment of him. I have a profound disrespect for adults who behave that way toward children in their power, which I realize on reflection probably colors my view of this character more than the author intended.

 

It *is* true that he bears an unreasonable amount of resentment toward Harry. However, many of Snape's actions are through the eyes of Harry. There are many instances where Harry *thinks* Snape is doing one thing when something quite different is going on. I'm not suggesting that he's a wonderful person, he is unquestionably flawed. But, he is often acting out of good intentions. For example, when he enters the Shrieking Shack believing that Sirius is a murderer and Lupin is helping him. Why wouldn't Snape believe that given the information he had at the time? There are many instances like that where Snape is trying to protect Harry (the first Quidditch match and Snape protecting the trio from the werewolf Lupin being two that come immediately to mind), but Harry does not know that, and we are viewing the story through Harry's eyes.

 

was largely inept at magic for most of the series--very weak, though not entirely a squib. So this progress is what I probably don't remember very well--my impression is that when he started to fight he didn't really use magic very much, because he wasn't any good at it--isn't that right?

 

That's why I was so completely in awe of him coming out to face Voldemort--because he was the last student who was likely to even remotely survive, and he did it anyway, solely because it was the right thing to do. The first time I read that, I actually cried (I NEVER cry reading books). But the truth is, I have not read the books in quite a while, and it seems from what you said that I remembered this issue as more black and white than it actually was. I still like him, though!

 

He was inhibited by his grandmother, his parents' shadow and the fact that he was using his father's wand. Professor McGonagall *tells* him that it's his lack of confidence giving him issues.

 

The revelation of the prophecy and the fact that his father's wand is broken give Neville more confidence. It's Neville who stands up to the housemates when they are questioning Harry's story in OOtP and puts an end to the debate. Neville attacks Malfoy when Malfoy makes some crack about St. Mungo's. Neville defends Ginny against Umbridge's goons. He goes to the Department of Mysteries with the DA.

 

You see him grow by leaps and bounds in the fifth book and beyond.

 

I guess I just wasn't surprised by the time he confronted Voldemort and killed Nagini because he had it in him all along, and he had progressed so far. He had stood up for the right thing in the face of danger in so many situations at that point.

[Carol in Cal.]

I also agree about Mrs. Weasley. Her bravery hit me while I was watching the last movie. When Harry and Hagrid return to the Burrow first, it's painfully clear how virtually her whole world is up in the skies. As a mother, I can't imagine what kind of a wreck I would be with four of my sons and my husband in danger like that.

 

Doncha love the scene where she duels with Voldemort's most loyal supporter? You Will Never Touch My Family Again! woohoooo!

[Carol in Cal.]

It is repeatedly stated that Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly and that's the only reason most of the other trust Snape.

 

Yes, but Dumbledore himself won't tell Snape everything. And to some extent I think he chooses to trust Snape because he needs to, and also be he knows how obsessed Snape is. It's not blackmail, but it almost has that feel--Dumbledore is the ONLY one who knows that side of Snape, and he uses it to get Snape to do what is right. Snape is extremely brave, and he does the right thing, mostly, but for the wrong reason. That redeems him to a large extent, but it doesn't make me admire him.

 

 

He was inhibited by his grandmother, his parents' shadow and the fact that he was using his father's wand. Professor McGonagall *tells* him that it's his lack of confidence giving him issues.

 

The revelation of the prophecy and the fact that his father's wand is broken give Neville more confidence. It's Neville who stands up to the housemates when they are questioning Harry's story in OOtP and puts an end to the debate. Neville attacks Malfoy when Malfoy makes some crack about St. Mungo's. Neville defends Ginny against Umbridge's goons. He goes to the Department of Mysteries with the DA.

 

I don't remember the part about his father's wand; I have to go back and revisit that. I'm sure you're right.

 

You see him grow by leaps and bounds in the fifth book and beyond.

 

I guess I just wasn't surprised by the time he confronted Voldemort and killed Nagini because he had it in him all along, and he had progressed so far. He had stood up for the right thing in the face of danger in so many situations at that point.

 

I agree that he progressed, but as a person, not nearly as much as a wizard, was my understanding. Doesn't he kill Nagini with the sword, with no element of magic involved? Doesn't he stand up for people more as a human than as a magician? (I'm asking, not stating this, not asking rhetorically, because it is my impression, but again, I think I missed part of this.) My overwhelming impression was that he didn't ever have much magic power. The rest were learning to do wand battle and such, and he just was never as capable. But in spite of that, he goes out to battle Voldemort, so it makes that action ever more heroic because he doesn't have any reason to think that he can prevail, and in fact he has ample reason to think that he cannot.

 

But it's very possible that I have forgotten a magical progress that occurred. I don't remember it that way, but it's been a while since I've read books 5 and 6. (I reread 7 from time to time, but haven't gone back through the whole series in ages.) Certainly I agree with you that he grew a great deal, character growth and confidence especially. I'll look again.

[Lady Florida.]

 

However, many of Snape's actions are through the eyes of Harry. There are many instances where Harry *thinks* Snape is doing one thing when something quite different is going on. I'm not suggesting that he's a wonderful person, he is unquestionably flawed. But, he is often acting out of good intentions.

 

 

Snape was still willing to let Voldemort kill Harry and James. Yes, he hated James as much as James hated him, but when it came down to it, James wasn't willing to let Snape die (in the Shrieking Shack with Lupin). I don't believe he was only saving his own skin in that case. Snape on the other hand didn't care if James lived or died. He was also willing to let an innocent baby die. He wanted to save Lily. It was only when Dumbledore suggested it, that he agreed to saving James and Harry as well.

 

Snape was not redeemed in my eyes. He never felt true remorse - only grief for Lily's death.

 

ETA: I also believe that if Voldemort thought the prophecy had been about Neville, Snape never would have approached Dumbledore and would have remained a Death Eater.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, but Dumbledore himself won't tell Snape everything. And to some extent I think he chooses to trust Snape because he needs to, and also be he knows how obsessed Snape is. It's not blackmail, but it almost has that feel--Dumbledore is the ONLY one who knows that side of Snape, and he uses it to get Snape to do what is right. Snape is extremely brave, and he does the right thing, mostly, but for the wrong reason. That redeems him to a large extent, but it doesn't make me admire him.

 

Dumbledore didn't tell *anyone* everything. Not Snape, not Sirius, not the Weasleys, not Harry, nobody.

 

I just don't know whether he does things for the wrong reason. Remember, this is Harry's story. It's all about perception and we know that Harry's perceptions of Snape are often wrong. I can totally understand you feeling the way you do about it. I'm just trying to explain why I see it the way I do. :)

 

 

 

I don't remember the part about his father's wand; I have to go back and revisit that. I'm sure you're right.

 

I agree that he progressed, but as a person, not nearly as much as a wizard, was my understanding. Doesn't he kill Nagini with the sword, with no element of magic involved?

 

He definitely progresses as a wizard. Look at the DA scenes and how he improves. Then, look at the testing scenes in OoTP. He gets much better grades here than he has done in the past.

 

Doesn't he stand up for people more as a human than as a magician? (I'm asking, not stating this, not asking rhetorically, because it is my impression, but again, I think I missed part of this.)

 

I think this is often true in the books. They are humans first and wizards second. It's one of the things that make them so captivating. But, it may be especially true of Neville.

 

My overwhelming impression was that he didn't ever have much magic power. The rest were learning to do wand battle and such, and he just was never as capable. But in spite of that, he goes out to battle Voldemort, so it makes that action ever more heroic because he doesn't have any reason to think that he can prevail, and in fact he has ample reason to think that he cannot.

 

But Neville did learn to do wand battle. The fact that he was an Auror after graduation is one indicator of how his skills grew. That doesn't make it any less heroic, mind you. Yes, he killed Nagini with the sword, but they killed (if that is the right word?) most of the horcruxes with the sword.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

He definitely progresses as a wizard. Look at the DA scenes and how he improves. Then, look at the testing scenes in OoTP. He gets much better grades here than he has done in the past.

 

 

 

But Neville did learn to do wand battle. The fact that he was an Auror after graduation is one indicator of how his skills grew. That doesn't make it any less heroic, mind you. Yes, he killed Nagini with the sword, but they killed (if that is the right word?) most of the horcruxes with the sword.

 

:iagree: I especially like it when Professor Mcgonagal says it's time for his grandmother to be proud of the grandson she has instead of the one she wishes she had. Neville did grow as both a person and a wizard, but he had it in him all along. Harry helped bring it out - Neville even said so as he was leading them back to the room of requirement from Aberforth's pub.

 

Dh asked how Neville got the sword to kill Nagini, and I reminded him that the sword will present itself to any true Gryffindor. Neville was a true Gryffindor.

[lmrich]

Neville's progression is a wizard is closely tied to his belief in himself. It reminds of the "magic" in Wizard of Oz when the good witch tells Dorothy she had the power to go home all along, she just needed to believe it (something like that). It seems like Neville had trouble seeing greatness in himself. Even Harry and Ron struggle with having enough confidence to perform certain tasks and it seems that belief in what you are doing has an affect on your action. Kind of like real life -when you believe in yourself you are much more likely to achieve it.

[JeneralMom]

Yes, Neville had to kill Nagini with the sword because she was a Horcrux, and the sword was imbued with basilisk venom and had the ability to kill horcruxes.

 

Don't forget, Dumbledore knew he was dying - he knew it before he went to the cave with Harry. In his attempt to destroy the locket (horcrux) he poisoned himself and only had a short time to live. This is why he told Snape to go ahead and kill him because a quick death which served a purpose would be better than a slow death which served none.

 

About Snape going to the Shrieking Shack - Sirius sent Snape to the shack and James had second thoughts, so it really was Sirius who intended for Snape to be harmed.

 

I also think it is very interesting that Rowling intended for Mr. Wesley to die in OOtP but just couldn't bring herself to kill him off, so sacrificed someone else instead (I can't remember if it was Sirius or Lupin who was supposed to survive). It did make me really sad that Tonks and Lupin die and I am not sure I see the purpose of it other than to create another orphan. I understand why one of the twins had to die - to push Mrs. W over the edge and to allow her to kill Bellatrix (can't wait for that scene on the big screen).

[The Governess]

Snape remained true to his promise to Dumbledore, even after his death. Even when everyone in the OOTP considered him a traitor, he was carrying out Dumbledore's plan in secret. He could have just walked away at this point, but he didn't. Ultimately, he died trying to finish the job Dumbledore had left him, after spending the entire year trying not only to help Harry, but protect the students of Hogwarts as well. Even after he knew that he was just keeping Harry safe so he could die at the "right time", and it wasn't really about Lily anymore, he still complied. Dumbledore put his trust in the right person.

 

Let's give the guy a little credit. :D

 

I think that both Snape and Harry had newfound respect for each other once they had full information of the role the other really played and the extremely difficult things they had to do make the plan succeed. I wish they had been able to meet each other again with this new understanding.

 

Snape is a great character, although a very imperfect one.

[Kirch]

 

Snape is a great character, although a very imperfect one.

 

:iagree: I think it's his imperfection (and how that plays into the story) that makes him a great character.

[MelanieM]

:iagree: I think it's his imperfection (and how that plays into the story) that makes him a great character.

 

Absolutely. I think there are so many great lessons about judgment that come up with HP, and with Snape in particular. Everyone is capable of greatness and, even flawed, deserving of love.

[asta]

I curious about how well your kids are dealing with the books. I have only allowed my elder son, about to be 11, to read through book 3. He said he wants to read book 4 for his 11th birthday and I told him that was fine, but he can't read book 5 until he is older.

 

I figured he wouldn't understand the relationships or the choices the characters make.

 

Do you find your 6 & 7 year old understand the politics and the issues she is addressing? If they are, then maybe I should rethink my stance. I kind of have it in my head that books 1-3 are juvenile books but starting with book for they become young adult novels. But, maybe I am being too hard line.

 

My son has always held the belief that the HP books should only be read simultaneously with Harry's and the child's age. eg: Start the first book at age eleven, read the next one at twelve, etc.

 

His rationale is that Harry's behavior in each one makes much more sense when the reader is looking through the same "eyes".

 

I have to give him some credit - things that annoyed the crap out of DH and I that Harry was doing, kid just looked at us with a "you're so OLD" glare.

 

JMKO.

 

 

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[JFSinIL]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

I agree - his using the M word was just the straw breaking the camel's back.

 

I think we just are not given the entire Lily/James story since it would be a side-track form the main Harry story.

 

PS Snape is my favorite character...now that I have digested all the books!

Edited April 27, 2011 by JFSinIL

[JFSinIL]

Neville's progression is a wizard is closely tied to his belief in himself. It reminds of the "magic" in Wizard of Oz when the good witch tells Dorothy she had the power to go home all along, she just needed to believe it (something like that). It seems like Neville had trouble seeing greatness in himself. Even Harry and Ron struggle with having enough confidence to perform certain tasks and it seems that belief in what you are doing has an affect on your action. Kind of like real life -when you believe in yourself you are much more likely to achieve it.

 

Oooh - I never thought of Neville as the Dorothy of the story - good one!!!

[Mom in High Heels]

Best thread ever!!!!

 

 

I don't respect Snape as much as all that.

 

 

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom. Why? He is always fighting for good, no matter what the odds. He has no magic powers of his own, and yet he comes out of the castle to challenge Voldemort when all is lost, just because it is the right thing to do. That act is as noble as HP going to give himself up--the context being that he has no magic powers, HP is dead, and the castle breached. He comes out and challenges V after he appears to have already won, and he does it alone. Now there's a hero!

 

I LOVE Neville!!!! From Book 1 I loved him and knew there had to be more to him. He always did the right thing, even when it was hard and unpopular. He stood up to his friends (in book 1 when they were sneaking out of the common room), which was brave for a young kid to do. We also don't learn until book...5 (IIRC) about Neville's home life and what happened to his parents. IMO, Neville survived difficult circumstances to be an upstanding person, which was in the end, more important than his magical abilities.

 

 

I also think it is very interesting that Rowling intended for Mr. Wesley to die in OOtP but just couldn't bring herself to kill him off, so sacrificed someone else instead (I can't remember if it was Sirius or Lupin who was supposed to survive). It did make me really sad that Tonks and Lupin die and I am not sure I see the purpose of it other than to create another orphan. I understand why one of the twins had to die - to push Mrs. W over the edge and to allow her to kill Bellatrix (can't wait for that scene on the big screen).

 

In an interview I read, JKR said Tonks and Lupin died so that Teddy would grow up an orphan. She wanted to show that an orphan could still grow up in a world of love and happiness, unlike the one Harry grew up in.