For All Who Freak Out About Math...Including Myself :)

[stripe]

If a child is well educated by the time they graduate, does it really matter which particular year they learned fractions? Really?

But unless you are willing to try as an experiment the "hold off on math until they're 14 and then they'll learn it all in 3 months" thing,

 

Would we feel this way about learning how to write (as in, form letters)? Is it okay to hold off on this until 10th grade, AND expect that by the end of high school, the child would be able to write a 5 page essay?

 

Some things are foundational.

[jentancalann]

But unless you are willing to try as an experiment the "hold off on math until they're 14 and then they'll learn it all in 3 months" thing,

 

Would we feel this way about learning how to write (as in, form letters)? Is it okay to hold off on this until 10th grade, AND expect that by the end of high school, the child would be able to write a 5 page essay?

 

Some things are foundational.

 

Thoroughly confused. Guess I need to go read all 16 pages to see what you're talking about. This isn't what the article, or MUS advocates at all.

With the fraction thing, I mean 5th grade, which is when MUS would teach them if you take your time through one book a year and do every single sheet of paper, as opposed to 2nd grade. MUS doesn't even advocate doing every page in the book, but rather moving through at the child's own speed. If they have a lesson down pat, by all means skip the next 5 pages and move to the next. I think most opposers don't have a clue how the program works.

Edited April 23, 2011 by jentancalann

[joysworld]

But unless you are willing to try as an experiment the "hold off on math until they're 14 and then they'll learn it all in 3 months" thing,

 

Would we feel this way about learning how to write (as in, form letters)? Is it okay to hold off on this until 10th grade, AND expect that by the end of high school, the child would be able to write a 5 page essay?

 

Some things are foundational.

 

This is a bit dramatic. Nowhere in the article does he say to hold off till your child is 14 to start math.

 

I'm one that is in the camp 'better later than early'. There is no need to start formal lessons at age 5 or even 6, and holding off on formal lessons till 7ish, is in no way going to harm a child. My dd, who is 4, has no formal schooling, and yet, she is starting to right letters, and learn some of the sounds letters make. This applies to math as well. No, she can't sit down and read 1+1=2, but if she has three cars, and tells her brother that she wants five cars, I can ask her how many cars he needs to give her and she can tell you 2.

 

Delaying formal academics in no way means that a child learns nothing until they are formally taught. We don't have talking lessons for children, and yet they learn just simply by being around it. So long as a child is around math, reading, writing, etc, then they are going to learn these things.

 

Now, I'm in not saying delaying is better than other ways. I'm simply clarifying that delaying in no means 'holding off till the child is 14' and that delaying till a child is 7 or 8 is not going to hold them back in life or education.

[stripe]

This is a bit dramatic. Nowhere in the article does he say to hold off till your child is 14 to start math.

 

No, he doesn't say this, but there are other people, in other threads on here and elsewhere, who have enthusiastically recommended various things where someone waited quite late to start any formal math programs. They believe this is advantageous. I was suggesting that not everyone feels comfortable not worrying about it AT ALL, and letting the student figure it out when s/he wants or is ready, which is the only pace recommended in the article linked to in the first post.

 

I am saying that some people may see this as in line with this philosophy, that it is fine to delay until your child is ready, but not everyone is willing to try this for themselves. Some people DO worry if a child of (whatever age) doesn't understand fractions.

 

Honestly I don't even know what understanding fractions means. My five year old understands what a "half" is. I hope older children do too. Why not seize this curiosity, instead of shrouding it behind scary terms? Does this come out of parents' own fear of math? I think it does. It worries me as a general observation. However since I am not scared of math, it doesn't worry me in my own case.

[regentrude]

Does this come out of parents' own fear of math? I think it does.

 

I think you put the finger exactly on the wound.

Some parents are not comfortable with math and consider it something complicated that is somehow shrouded in mystery. Hence they tend to either worry a lot or believe in the "it will come on its own" approach. Unfortunately, many people never learned math properly (no wonder, since many teachers don't really understand what they teach.) I think this is the reason why these debates always flare up with respect to math - and not with reading. (I would guess there are more people who find reading fun than people who feel the same about math.)

OTOH, parents who are confident about math because they themselves have mastered it are much less prone to anxiety on the one side, and ready to recognize and remedy a problem on the other.

 

I think it must be hard to radiate confidence to a student if the parent feels that higher math is something scary.

[stripe]

I think this is the reason why these debates always flare up with respect to math - and not with reading.

Although there is a lot of fire in the "how to read" camp, as well as what to read (with descriptions like "great books" and "twaddle," it's not exactly a neutral discussion). But, while there is some discussion about, say, 4 year olds reading, or 8 year olds not reading, you don't really hear quite the same stuff.

[MissKNG]

Wow...this thread is still going!

 

:nopity:

[stripe]

Sorry, why's that a problem? There have been endless repetitions of "What reading program is best for my kid" and "Should I use R&S for grammar?" or "What to do after Singapore?" Most online fora are repetitive and are frequented by people who like to talk.

[joysworld]

No, he doesn't say this, but there are other people, in other threads on here and elsewhere, who have enthusiastically recommended various things where someone waited quite late to start any formal math programs. They believe this is advantageous. I was suggesting that not everyone feels comfortable not worrying about it AT ALL, and letting the student figure it out when s/he wants or is ready, which is the only pace recommended in the article linked to in the first post.

 

I am saying that some people may see this as in line with this philosophy, that it is fine to delay until your child is ready, but not everyone is willing to try this for themselves. Some people DO worry if a child of (whatever age) doesn't understand fractions.

 

Honestly I don't even know what understanding fractions means. My five year old understands what a "half" is. I hope older children do too. Why not seize this curiosity, instead of shrouding it behind scary terms? Does this come out of parents' own fear of math? I think it does. It worries me as a general observation. However since I am not scared of math, it doesn't worry me in my own case.

 

I do seize opportunities, as do others I know who are much more relaxed than I am. I don't start formal schooling until first grade. It's not about being scared of math, it's about not forcing them to sit down and do formal work when they are not ready. My kids have learned math and reading way before any formal work starts. They have learned this because I seize teachable moments, I read them books that are on their level but teach practical concepts. If I wasn't such a type A personality, I would hold of on any formal schooling until age 7/8:)

 

I'm new here, so I haven't read any threads about people waiting till their child is 14 to do any formal math. My comment was strictly in reference to your comment in this particular thread.

[Spock]

If that's what was said there would be no discussion, but that isn't what is actually said in the article.

 

Bill

 

Apparently Steve Demme needs to be more clear. I don't get his newsletter because we only used MUS elementary for one year (I went back to Singapore/Miquon), but I have read his website several times, and I also read all the materials we used. Based on this, plus reading many different homeschooling publications over the past 18 years (I started reading about homeschooling when my oldest was an infant), I am familiar with the mindset behind what he was saying.

 

While I have definitely read articles/books that do have the philosophy of "trust the children" to know how much to learn, when, and how, (and the philosophy that any pace is just fine, or that homeschooling automatically means children will learn well whether parents do much or not),that is not the philosophy of Mr. Demme. He truly does encourage parents to work with their children consistently to help them learn what they need to learn.

[stripe]

I'm new here, so I haven't read any threads about people waiting till their child is 14 to do any formal math. My comment was strictly in reference to your comment in this particular thread.

This is what several of us were referring to, not waiting until a child is 6.

[cdrumm4448]

Bill's post was thoughtful, insightful, and positive, and you're attributing that to grumpiness because you don't agree with him?

 

Spycar said,

"Being "behind" is not some invention of the State that wants to do harm to your beautiful children. It is a real problem for many."

 

I personally found that reply sarcastic, not thoughtful, insightful or positive.

[MyLittleBears]

I can't believe this thread is still going! As was said earlier, why do I keep coming back and reading this? As a MUS user, I have watched the DVD intro- the one before all the lessons. Mr. Demme advocates staying on a particular topic and not moving on until the child "gets it". Never has he advocated letting the child flounder and not worry about it. They are always willing to help you with any issues and questions you may have. And I've had a few. They always respond quite quickly. His audience was the target of this newsletter in particular- we were the ones who recieved this email. We get his sarcasim. His method may be unorthodox but for many this type of mastery works. I have one child that needed this type of approach desperately. Now that he gets it, we have added singapore and he's flying through that. I have MUS to thank for this. I have other children who do not need this type of approach. A mixed bag, like most families, but a family that extremely values math and science.

 

As far as this thread is concerned, personal attacks are uncalled for and should not be accepted, but I think that some people were offended by tone of some of the initial comments made. They came across as insensitive and arrogant. Surely, there are kinder ways of making a point.

Edited April 24, 2011 by MyLittleBears

[jentancalann]

Amen.