X-postFOURTH language for a languagy kid?

[Dmmetler]

Cross posted to here:

 

 

My DD is a "languagy" kid. She loves languages, loves the structure, loves grammar, and draws connections easily. She was an early reader, and an early talker. As a preschooler. she'd bring home the "100 first words in X" books from the library, sit, and read them. She learned, and still uses, quite a bit of ASL vocabulary from Signing time.

 

We started Spanish pretty early, and while she's not bilingual, she's reasonably competent in it and can hold her own with other kids her age who speak it as a primary language. We do some Spanish reading, Spanish for Children for Grammar, and some of her other subjects partially in Spanish. We started Latin about a year ago at her request, which she loves and has done well with, and when she finished SSL, she wanted to do SSG, so has done Code cracker, SSG, and Biblical Greek 4 kids. We have "Hey, Andrew" book 2 on the shelf to start once we get into the hot part of summer (we're reviewing and playing now, mostly with modern Greek vocabulary cards to practice decoding skills).

 

Well, it's just come through our homeschool group that there is an option of Mandarin classes for the fall, through the local university. Cost is reasonable-it's a grant funded program, so really the only cost we have is having a place for their teacher to come in. And I suspect DD would love it. Every time she sees ideograms, she's enthralled by them, and she gets a few new words from her favorite waitress at a local restaurant whenever we're there (although I'm pretty sure those are in Cantonese). She loves Asian mythology and art-we have a nice museum of Asian art here, and since I did some of their educational materials, I have a lot of resources that she's been able to read and enjoy that relate to the art works and the stories behind them. And, she's a dragon nut, which doesn't hurt.

 

So I KNOW DD would love this-but mommy is already feeling overwhelmed trying to keep up with three languages (plus English grammar-and with a grammar-nut kid, there's times Latin feels easier!). I'm not sure I can manage adding another one-especially since this would be another language, like Greek, where I have NO background, unlike Spanish and Latin. And Greek has enough cognates with languages that I know that once I decode the words, I don't feel totally lost-Mandarin really doesn't. We could drop a language, I guess-but DD is enjoying them enough that I hate to tell her she'd have to give one up-languages really are her favorite part of school.

 

So, what do you think? Am I insane even to consider it? I haven't let DD know that it's an option-but as soon as the class starts, it's probably going to be impossible to hide it from her, since it will be listed with the other homeschool group offerings, she'll have friends doing it, and so on.

[2smartones]

I would simply explain to her that kids are an empty sponge, and adults are a full sponge. My kids pick up Latin SO MUCH faster than I do! My son gripes at me when I get the key out to check his answers, because he already knows they're all correct. (... and he's right. LOL) There are things she'll be able to learn that, as adults, we just can't compete. If she really WANTS to take on another language like this (something completely foreign to what everyone in the household already knows), she'll need to take the initiative to learn it on her own. Fourth grade is a good time to start taking on more responsibility for learning. Go for it. If she doesn't like it, fine. If she likes it, you'll have been an encouraging parent, and you'll have taught her a little lesson in independence. :001_smile:

[zaichiki]

If she loves languages that much, they might be her "thing" and perhaps she'll line up her future in that direction. So... why not make languages the cornerstone of her homeschool education? You don't have to give up other things, but go ahead and feed her love of languages as much as you can.

 

Go for the Mandarin!

 

Disclaimer:

I'm a former language-obsessed child who used to follow foreign-language speaking strangers around the supermarket. I studied Latin, Spanish, French, a little German, and ASL. I'm fluent in ASL and needed that fluency for my social and professional life -- before children. I live in a Russian/English bilingual household. My parents NEVER supported my interest in languages. If they had, I'm sure I would have developed fluency in multiple languages in my childhood. I *still* love languages, though I devote my time to other things now. When the kids are older and I have more personal time I'm sure I will be signing myself up for some language classes. :D

 

My 9 year old shows signs of being a language-lover. She's currently studying Russian. Our plan (she is in on this) is to begin Spanish soon and then add in another language a year from now. I'm thinking Latin, but she's hoping for something else. We'll see...

[Embassy]

I'd go for it. Sounds like you wouldn't be the primary resource for Mandarin anyway if you go with the classes.

[musicianmom]

I'd say let her do it, but tell her she'll have to do it on her own. And let the teacher know that this is her 4th language, and that you won't be able to help at home.

[Ester Maria]

I have mixed feelings about this one.

 

In one hand, I would hate to prevent a child who loves learning and is capable of handling one more language from, at least, some exposure to it. I doubt much "harm" can be done by exposing a young child to one more language and culture, especially at such a young age when she is not burdened by "real" academics and when everything she learns is still mostly a "joke" compared to what awaits her later. She has time, she has capacities, she has will, so why not?

 

On the other hand, there is a well-known "Jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome which often strikes people who shoot for quantity, try everything, and then wake up one day without a tangible, "real" competence in anything they tried because their efforts were so dispersed. As crazy as it may sound, sometimes the best option for a language-loving child is to put your foot down at one point and say, no more excitingly-new stuff, this is what we are stuck with and this is where we will aim for a slow, gradual, but secure progress, even if the initial excitement wears off. Consistency is the key in such accumulative areas.

 

My kids had that many languages in their lives at that age, but it was a different situation and looking back, I definitely could have waited with Latin and Greek (or at least only Greek) until middle school and let all the foreign language focus be on Hebrew, rather than dragging them for years in "eternally-intermediate" stage in all three - I think this is where I made a mistake.

 

One more thing to consider: when kids are small, grammar is pretty much a joke. I would be careful not to draw too early conclusions from the fact the child - even an advanced one - is good at phrasebook-level foreign languages, SSL or English "grammar" at the age of 6. Both of my daughters, having grown up in the families where they grew up and in circumstances where they grew up, etc., would appear EXTREMELY language-y between toddlerhood and middle school, but the appearance of things often hides the simple fact that one of them does not really have a natural bent in that direction, but has simply been "pushed" a bit by her life circumstances (living abroad, travel, classically educated parents, multiple languages and dialects spoken on both sides of the family, etc.). And the moment school became more "real", languages stopped being phrasebook-level, subtleties started to matter and a more nuanced understanding of things was required, things were not so easy for her, even if she is very very intelligent and can handle them - but what a difference from her sister! And at 6-7 years old, barely any difference was noticeable because they were small and you could not do many tangible things with them in any area. They were both pretty much equally "everything-y" to my eyes and it took several years of getting "real" with school to filter what things they naturally excelled at, what was the product of specific life circumstances, and what were their actual interests, past the initial excitement of ANY new area, typical for early years of schooling. It might be a good idea to keep that mind, because you might be adding too much on her plate, ending up in not having really learned anything substantial in ten years from now, because you assumed she would always excel or be interested in languages or because you focused on so many things where you cannot "follow" her and thus cannot really estimate how she handles each area or direct her in her studies.

 

In the end, I probably would ask the kid and sign her up if she wants to go (the social factor, why prevent her from learning, breadth of educational experience, etc.), but keeping all the stuff I wrote above in mind. I would probably even present it as an extracurricular to her, as "not really school", unless she gets serious about it on her own later. So, I would not "count" it, but I would allow her to go, and watch very closely that it does not interfere with your regular / planned language activities. This is how I am handling my eldest's language fits, because she has a tendency of choosing many things, changing her mind, etc. - I require a fixed path, and she can add things, but not remove, and added things cannot interfere with the quality of studies of the framework we agreed upon.

[Rivka]

This is an interesting thread for me, because my just-turning-6yo is about to start Spanish (with conversational aims) and Latin (with actual language-study aims).

 

She is also insisting that she wants to learn Greek, so that she can read the Rosetta Stone. I am putting her off. My excuse is that there aren't any Attic Greek programs suitable for a 6-year-old; also, her father is going to study Spanish with her and I am going to study Latin with her. We don't have a third parent in the home to take on a third language. ;)

 

I think, if I were the OP, I might allow the Mandarin class for fun and exposure, but I would not commit to studying a fourth language over the long term.

[In The Great White North]

One year mandarin at 6 makes no sense if you can't do any mandarin after that if you know what I mean...

 

It does, actually, make sense even if you can't follow up right away. Mandarin has many sounds that Westerners cannot easily pronounce. The earlier she learns them, the more likely she is to be able to pronounce them correctly if she comes back to the language as an adult.

 

Maintaining the language isn't really necessary to maintain the ability to pronounce it.

 

I would let her do it as an extra curricular also, assuming she fits the age range.

[Ester Maria]

Maintaining the language isn't really necessary to maintain the ability to pronounce it.

I agree with you, BUT:

 

1. The phonetics part will only be relevant if she is taught by a NATIVE speaker - or at least a highly competent one (as in, a non-native, but who has studied the language extensively theoretically and spent extended periods of time in the relevant country, with the final result of having reached a near-native competence, which is a level that not all language teachers can boast). If she is not taught by such a teacher, it is actually better for her not to attend the course, so as not to learn the misused phonetic nuances which will become cemented in her mind and very hard to get rid of later as an adult.

 

2. Phonetics is actually forgotten first, believe it or not. The process of losing a language, barring a small number of exceptions, actually BEGINS with phonetics - first you lose the accent nuances, then you start losing vocabulary, while the fixed framework of grammar is what stays with you the most. Contradictory, maybe, but in the vast majority of cases it is exactly like that. People who start losing their native languages abroad also go through the same process - first their accent becomes slightly "foreignized", then their vocabulary starts stuffering, but grammatical structure is solid to the very end.

In spite of that, though, producing in adulthood sounds learned to produce in early childhood is generally easier. But that won't mean that in the meanwhile the kid will speak phonetically good language or that she won't have to "relearn" things.

[Dmmetler]

The goal of the program, which has existed in several schools in the area, is to build fluency over the years a child is in school, instead of trying to teach a language in high school only. So elementary is cultural and building basic skills, mostly via immersion, but it gets more formal in secondary. I don't know how this will work for homeschoolers-I'll have to see what is said at the parent meeting. I know the program looked interesting when I was looking at schools, but it wasn't enough to compensate for the lack of higher level academic offerings in other areas. I would think, though, that at her level, it would be pretty casual and relaxed-and if it ends up being a one year thing, well, hopefully it would help some cultural awareness, even if it has no language benefits at all.

 

Really, the only language I consider important for her to learn early is Spanish, and that's simply because we live in an area where being able to converse in Spanish is helpful-it's not at all odd for us to end up at the park with a mother and child who speak all or mostly Spanish, for example. If DH ever gets a transfer to a non-US office, that language priority would change accordingly (although Spanish and French are the only two modern languages besides English that I'm beyond the "knowing a few useful phrases" stage in).

 

 

Latin and Greek both are language I feel are useful for her to know from a classical standpoint-but if she were not interested, we wouldn't do it, so if she decided to drop one in favor of learning Mandarin now, I wouldn't mind setting them aside and waiting until she's older. Although I have to say I'm enjoying studying them with her and sharing her joy-Latin was a chore for me in school, and it's so different to see it through her eyes.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I have nothing much to say right now, except that my kids are fluent in two languages (English and French) and are learning Spanish, and either Latin or Mandarin. My Mandarin learning child will do Latin later on, just not right away, and my Latin learning child did 2 years of Greek at one point. So each child will be exposed to five languages, with various degrees of success.

 

And at least one of my children is not languagy at all...