TOG: Would I be wasting $$?

[Robin in Alabama]

To use TOG for one student? Does it have to be strictly followed (which I'm not opposed to and probably NEED!) on a day to day basis, and can I use different levels (say one grade lower if the student isn't strong in a subject) but on her grade level with other subjects?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I'd like to hear from people that use this and what you like or dislike about it.

 

~Robin in Alabama

[Karenciavo]

Many people use TOG with one student, no problems there. Except for writing there are only four levels, not 13 grade levels, and where ever your child fits is what you use. There is no daily schedule contained in TOG, you make up a schedule to fit your individual homeschool from the abundance of assignments included each week. TOG is easily adaptable to any situation, use it as little or as much as you like, though the less you use it the less cost effective it is.

 

I'm a person who loves TOG, it fits my family perfectly.

[kathleen]

I used it with my oldest in high school, and he was the only student. I thought it was very worth it. Now, that was back when it cost $85 for a year plan!

 

As for using different levels with the same student--well, it's not really done by grade level (except for the writing assignments). There are learning levels (for lack of a better term): lower grammar, upper grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric. So the only thing you could do is have, say, a rhetoric student do a dialectic assignment if you thought he wasn't up to the rhetoric reading.

 

As to the cost, though, TOG is very easily resold. Assuming you didn't write all over everything, you can recoup much of the cost. Or, if you don't need the redesign, you can find used copies of the Classic plans for very good prices. And, when you think about it, $185 (I think that's the price for the new ones) isn't that bad for all the subjects you get--history, literature, geography, government, fine arts, church history, and writing, and philosophy (hope I'm not forgetting anything!).

[Robin in Alabama]

Could you tell me what differences there are in these?

 

Thanks for both replies, ladies!

 

~Robin in Alabama

[Karenciavo]

 

that was back when it cost $85 for a year plan!

I remember those days. It's actually $225 now. I see them selling on ebay for almost full price.

[Karenciavo]

 

Here's a link that explains the difference between classic & Redesign. I would strongly advise getting Redesign for dialectic level and up.

[mommaduck]

It's $225 now?! Wow! A few year's ago it was $100 or $150.

[kathleen]

I remember those days. It's actually $225 now. I see them selling on ebay for almost full price.

 

Gulp. Wow, what a huge difference. I did think $85 was pretty low way back when, and when one factors in all the subjects that I mentioned above, I still think it's a pretty good deal.

[Karenciavo]

I still think it's a pretty good deal.

 

It really is. Kathleen, you should see the literature program now, it's amazing.

[J'Marie]

We have the classic, and I think it is definatly suffucient...the redesign has improved the set up- but personally I prefer the classic, maybe because I am use to it. It has way more than we could complete, I have used it for 4 years, done all four years with all levels..So if budget is an issue buy a used classic- especially with one child..spend the difference on books you can't get from the library (IMO)...I could only compare the classic with the free three weeks they give you online but to mee the differences were not major...and actually it seems they are making everything separate..which can be more costly

[Karenciavo]

I could only compare the classic with the free three weeks they give you online but to mee the differences were not major...and actually it seems they are making everything separate..which can be more costly

 

I haven't looked at the samples, but as a former classic user and current redesign user I must say that redesign at the rhetoric level is vastly improved and the differences are significant.

[jananc]

I haven't looked at the samples, but as a former classic user and current redesign user I must say that redesign at the rhetoric level is vastly improved and the differences are significant.

The same is even more true for dialectic levels -- there are now answers for the dialectic discussion questions, when before you were left to find them somewhere in the reading or teacher notes.

[Janie]

Karen,

Could you explain more about the changes in the literature program? I am planning to use most of TOG next year in my 6th, 7th, and 8th grade classes using my classic versions. But the changes in the Redesign could change my mind!

 

Oh, and I LOVE your TOG booklets at Rivendell! I had already decided to do something like that for my spelling, vocabulary, and writing for each grade next year. I shared your post and pictures with my Middle School Coordinator who was equally impressed.

 

Thanks!

[Karenciavo]

Karen,

Could you explain more about the changes in the literature program? I am planning to use most of TOG next year in my 6th, 7th, and 8th grade classes using my classic versions. But the changes in the Redesign could change my mind!

 

The changes at the dialectic level literature are not as dramatic as those at the rhetoric level, but Redesign does begin to gently introduce dialectic students to literary terms. Here is a quote from Dana over at the TOG forum:

 

"We have several goals in regard to dialectic literature:

*Begin to prepare them, especially in regard to recognizing terminology, and using that terminology in a basic way, for rhetoric literature analysis.

*Give more understanding to the fact that part of a good education is not always "fun," and that sometimes, the enjoyment and pleasure comes in the future. But, learning basic lit analysis does aide in future understanding and enjoyment!

*Be introduced to Great Books, most often in a revised children's version...for exposure.

*See connections between literature and history. Oftentimes, this is where historical fiction comes in, but it is used less and less as students get older.

*Learn discernment between the Christian worldview and other views, and formulate his own viewpoints, with teacher guidance.

*Continue to build on the fact that we want students to *love* to read."

 

As is the case with the rhetoric level, the main literature selection in redesign has more of a great books focus (albeit, most are retellings.)

[kathleen]

Karen, is there somewhere at the TOG site that explains the literature

changes in the rhetoric levels? I have searched and searched and can't find a thing--other than that they have a "literature expert" who wrote them. I did look at the sample weeks, but I couldn't really get a feel for it. Is there some sort of overarching plan?

[Karenciavo]

Marcia's daughter CJ has taken the literature reins. Unfortunately, you're right, there is no one place to read (as far as I know) about Tapestry's literature program and it's goals before you purchase it, although the scope and sequence (linked below) sheds some light.

 

I suppose the first difference to be noticed is that Tapestry is more Great Books focused. You can download the scope and sequence of years 1-3 (I believe they will be posting 4 soon) to see what books, or portions of books, are assigned. Also contained on the S&S charts is an overview of the literary analysis. A difference between Classic and Redesign perhaps is not readily apparent when comparing Year 1 Classic and Redesign, but it is once you get to Year 2. What does add a lot to the literature study in all years is the addition of the Leland Ryken book "Words of Delight." The literary analysis that is learned from it is enough of an improvement to warrant a switch.

 

If you don't mind, I'm going to discuss Redesign with Year 2 in mind since the differences are more evident and because that is the only year I've used at the rhetoric level.

 

Year 2 covers a vast amount of literature types and styles and Redesign includes a wonderful "Framework" for each unit (Medieval Frameworks, Renaissance Frameworks, Age of Reason Frameworks, and Enlightenment Frameworks.) These provide students with an excellent overview of the world at the time and the types of writings produced. The Medieval Frameworks for example points out in the midst of the chaos that resulted because of Western Rome's fall leisurely pursuits such as the writing and study of literature became suddenly much less important. Many works were lost. Christianity became the dominant religion and the literature at the time reflected that. The Frameworks provides background information about what students will be reading, e.g. Mystery Plays, imaginative literature, epic poems, lyric poems, romance, exempla, dream visions, fables and I'm sure there are more I'm missing. The Frameworks describes the worldview of the time. One thing I love about Tapestry is that it does not shy away from shedding light on the sins committed by "Christians." Students will read about the Medieval attitudes toward Jews and Muslims and are reminded what Scripture says about these. Also discussed are various cultural aspects, the view of the medieval world toward women being one.

 

Another addition to Redesign are the analysis documents, there is a Poetry Analysis document, a Story Analysis document, and a Drama Analysis document. Students read these for background information and they provide instruction for analysis. As the students are incrementally introduced to the literary analysis used in Tapestry, they can refer back to this document for definitions and general assistance. Also included are appendices that contain literary terms defined (students make flash cards from these) and blank analysis forms and various charts (character analysis for example.)

 

Students are also provided with various supplements that add to their study, such as a Literary Criticism supplement.

 

A typical week of Redesign rhetoric literature study includes reading a great book, reading from the Ryken book to gain knowledge of the part of analysis added in the particular week*, analyzing the literature via one of the analysis forms (poetry, story, drama), making literary term flash cards for the new terms introduced, and a suggested recitation from the work for the students to memorize (sometimes I just have my son write it in his commonplace book.)

 

The teacher's discussion script is also improved. Both Classic and Redesign contain excellent questions, answers to those questions, and background information for the teachers, but also included in Redesign are discussion questions the students haven't seen. These added questions help the teacher provide Socratic discussion where as Classic was more of an answer key.

 

* I want to mention that for years 2-4 there are 2 tracks in literature, beginning student and continuing student. Beginning students have fewer assignments (though believe me, it's very meaty) and continuing students will sometimes read another book to assist with analysis since they already read Words of Delight.

 

I'm not sure I have done justice to describing the literature component of Redesign or if I've just mucked it up :tongue_smilie:. If you have any questions please ask.

 

HTH,

Karen

[kathleen]

Thank you, Karen! That was very helpful. I'm off to check out that scope and sequence!

[Laurie in CA]

Kathleen,

I have been researching on the TOG boards about the literature redesign and found a couple good threads on how to start a new student at the rhetoric level. I will be starting TOG (Year 1) for the first time next year for my 9th grader. My concern was that the rhetoric level would be too difficult for a student who has never used TOG and may not be mature enough for the subject matter. Anyway, I found some good threads about it on the TOG forum. I have not received my curriculum yet but I am pretty sure I will need to start out at the dialectic level for the literature analysis after reading the posts from some who found the rhetoric too difficult. I guess in the Year 2 redesign there is a beginning level and a continuing level for the literature and when Year 1 is revised in a few years, there will probably be a beginning level option. Right now Year 1 does not have that option. This curriculum looks top-notch and I can't wait to dive in. This thread helped me make the decision to try TOG.

 

Laurie

 

I hope these links work. I found these in General Information R on TOG forum.

http://tapestryofgrace.groupee.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8101059621/m/3211047232 (Question on Beginning and Continuing level for lit.)

http://tapestryofgrace.groupee.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8101059621/m/5521040382 (What age to begin Rhetoric?)

http://tapestryofgrace.groupee.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8101059621/m/9561089972 (Anyone transitioned to Rhetoric With Year 2?)

[Langhaven]

Karen did a fabulous job outlining the strengths of TOG and its literature portion! I agree with her synopsis! I love the curriculum too! What we enjoy the most is that this curriculum forces the student to think critically and weaves history together sequentially, so that it builds week to week and year to year. We are still talking about the ancients as well as the Middle Ages, even though we are finishing up the Revolutionary War era. I would do it if I only had one child - and am thrilled that I can use the curriculum again and again with my younger ones (and gain myself every time I go through it). It is a fabulous curriculum for teaching worldview.

 

The down side, in my opinion is that there is not enough time in a day to do it all (and it is not meant to be be used that way). We had a hard time doing history, government, and literature well, and still maintain slots for math, science, writing, English, piano, etc. All that and trying to reserve time in the week for test taking and other evaluations made school very consuming. This curriculum lends itself to adjustment and you can make it fit your family any way you want, but each segment that they offer can be very consuming if you want a thorough coverage of the topics. The Lit component is every bit as involved as the History component. You move very quickly through time periods handling very heavy involved topics and unless you adjust it to your fashion, it is hard to savor.

 

Of course, we've adjusted TOG to the needs and desires of our family - but be aware that picking and choosing at the beginning of your school year will help when crunch time comes!

 

I hope this helps!

[Laurie in CA]

Good point about making adjustments...I have been homeschooling for a long time and need to be reminded to use curriculum as a tool to help me and not feel like I have to do everything. I only have one to homeschool now so I hope I can use this to the fullest yet not get overwhelmed and feel condemned if I don't do everything. A buffet is "all you can eat" not "all you CAN eat".

Laurie

[SwimmerMom]

I found that TOG did not work for my only child and me. She is dialectic-level and NOT all the answers are in the Teacher's portion of the redesign. There were many times we felt like we were expected to find answers on our own or "just know" things.

 

Also, we felt like we missed out on quite a bit of the richness of TOG because Bean doesn't have younger siblings to "help" with their work.

 

We finished Year 1 Redesign and are giving up and going back to Sonlight.

 

I still love the idea of TOG, though, and if I had a passle of kiddos, it would be my first choice. But for one student, it just didn't work for us like I hoped it would.

[Denise in PA]

Absolutely!

For the past three years TOG has been my primary source of instruction and support in teaching my two teens! Even if I was home instructing only one child I would definetly utilize TOG. Rather you wish to spend full retail or purchase the teacher notes/material used (which I have always done) the parent and student will receive an incredible education. The instruction, with an amazing in-depth of material, is ready made for the parent. This is very easy to use and very flexible. Just as important is the fact that TOG teaches the student to "own" his/her schedule. The student learns to really think, to analyze and synthesize. No boring work books, but real books is the mainstay for TOG. I have only used classic TOG, but will be utilizing the redesigned this coming year. Honestly, the classic version is fantastic - and inexpensive on the used market.

[Rebecca in VA]

We've used TOG Classic Year 4 (third grade) and Redesigned Year 1 (fifth grade). Next year we will use Redesigned Year 2. I consider it very much worthwhile. It's a good fit for my teaching style. I especially like the week-to-week breakdown of topics, which ensures that you move along at a nice pace and not get mired down in one topic.

[Susan in TN]

Karen, thank you for your input here. While I only have a 7th, 4th, and K'er this coming year, I have 2 more "waiting in the wings" and am feeling a bit of trepidation when i