Seeking recommendations for the chronically disorganized student

[Maura in NY]

My 14 yo ds and I really need to work on his organizational and time management skills. I use Homeschool Tracker, and use this to print out weekly assignment lists. He does okay with this, but by this point, I would like him to take more ownership over his schedule and work load. If he doesn't have a list, he'll say he has no idea what he should be doing. My (mental) reaction is always, "You know your subjects; you know what you did yesterday; you know how we're doing this course -- how can you not have any idea what comes next?" He never seems to know what he needs to bring with him for any outside classes or activities. He's starting to understand that it is HIS job, not mine.

 

And as far as time management, he is terrible at estimating how long something will take. He always tries to put schoolwork off until later in the day, not seeing how difficult this makes his life. He will sit on the couch andday dream and fiddle with some small nothing for half an hour when transitioning from one task or school subject to another. Often he complains that he doesn't have time to do the things that are really important to him (especially his own writing), and we have been emphasizing the idea of setting priorities. I try to point out that all that "thumb-twiddling" is taking up his free time.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions? I started out to post asking for student assignment book recommendations, but I realized the Hive Mind might have a ideas to address the larger issues as well.

 

Thanks.

 

Maura

[Chris in VA]

Just some thoughts, in random order (and HOW is this helpful? lol I just thought I'd give advice instead of getting dressed and starting school here....).

 

Montessori talks about The Rest--after kids have done something hard, they often choose an easy and familiar work, as a rest. Can you help him develop a "rhythm" to his studies? Hard, easy, pretty hard, hard? Or whatever.

 

He sounds like he shuts down when overwhelmed and needs help planning. Most of this, imo and experience, is a maturity issue. Young high schoolers are usually just beginning to learn time management, and need to be taught this skill. The best way may vary, but I'd say practicing with part of his day, and just experiencing and perhaps even writing down how long something took (so that he can see, after a month, how long Biology typically takes, for example) could help him develop a sense of how long something took.

 

I'd also step in and set some boundaries (and ease off later, instead of just expecting him to finally "get it."). Perhaps you can take back some of the schedule, telling him what you've noticed as far as his time management and how he seems to want "more time." Perhaps you could say something like,

 

"Dc, I've noticed your comments about wanting more time to do the things you find important. I've been brainstorming with the Hive, and they had some suggestions. Let's go thru them and see what you think might work. First of all, I'm going to give you a whole section of your schedule for you to control, so you can do it as you want, and find out what works. Then, I'm going to help you manage the rest for now...." and so on.

 

What I'm trying to say is, no I would not expect a 14 yo to really understand how to set up his own work. What might be a good way to teach him, however, would be to let him control one or two subjects--tell him the whole week's work and let him break it up for the week as he wants. Sit with him as he does this, and make him write it out. So something like, "We have to cover Chapters 2 and 3 in Mockingbird this week. How do you want to do this? Can you figure out how much time it might take? (You could actually have him read two pages and time it, then use that to estimate how long an assignment might take.) Ok, I see you want to do Chapter 2 on Thursday. But look, here you have a writing paper due--will you have enough time for both that day? How does Tuesday look? Oh, it's lighter because you don't have Co-0p this week--how about you schedule half the chapter for Tuesday and half Thursday? Ok, let's look at when you can fit Chapter 3 in..."

 

Giving him some control, but not total control, may help.

And honestly, I'd get him used to doing something first thing in the morning. It's like when I get overwhelmed with housework--I just sit there twiddling my thumbs and can't function. But give me a small assignment, and it doesn't seem so bad.

 

Well, that was random order and random thoughts--don't say I didn't warn you!

And now I must get dressed...

[schmittgirlz]

Hi! I whole-heartedly concur with Chris! Setting boundaries is definitely the first step. Consistency and structure also important. I would also suggest that both of you sit down together and create a tenative schedule. Give the child choices so he is involved and feels some sense of control, e.g., would you rather do math or writing in the morning. As the parent, you'll have a better idea how long each subject takes, so you can allot that amount of time for that subject. Do a trial run and adapt accordingly. In regard to accountability, throughout the day periodically ask the child what they have accomplished and what they are still working on. Be sure to check the work every day, even if you just glance over it. This will let the child know that they are accountable. If he hasn't completed the work, remind him that he has made a choice not to complete it in a timely manner. Say something like: You are welcome to "X", as soon as you complete your school work.

 

HTH!

Clare

[Tullia]

Chris' advice is good regarding giving him some "ownership" of planning, however don't be shy about telling him that you have obligations as well and he needs to get his work done in good time for the good of the family. One of the great strengths of home school is its flexibility. It can also be a weakness, if you KWIM. I've had to tell my son more than once that sooner or later he will have to conform to other folks expectations and schedule constraints, so he might as well start now with mine.

 

I've tried all sorts of organizational tools, and weekly lists are a good idea but it's still helpful for us to have conference time first thing each day. I think it's partly a matter of maturity. Many boys that age do spend a lot of time day-dreaming and aren't especially self-directed. That doesn't mean that you just accept it and muddle along, though. It's a process; start where you are and work from there. It is NOT too early to be giving him a taste of the expectations he will have to meet in the next few years.

 

My son has matured a lot in the years between 14 and 18. Don't lose hope!

[Kris]

Hi, Maura -- I *so* feel your pain! I posted a similar question on the old boards a year or two ago. It's hard to read here about all the self-motivated five year olds who can do their own lesson plans, grade their own assignments, plan unit studies that interest them, get it all done before noon, spend their afternoons doing volunteer work, cook dinner, put themselves to bed, and then get themselves up the next morning to do it all again! Meanwhile, your teenager is giving you a blank stare when you ask them why they didn't think they needed to grab a pencil before coming to do their math. :-D

 

My son is on his own time table and there's no getting him to move faster. The conversations we have about time management and keeping things moving only waste *more* time. He nods and smiles and agrees with me -- and then goes back to staring out the window.

 

The thing is, it's just this "laid-back" attitude that other adults seem to notice and comment on -- favorably, I might add. One of his Taekwondo instructors just mentioned it to me the other day -- that he just seems to have this "grace" that she just loves about him. There's a lot going on under the hood, but on the outside, he's peaceful and easy-going.

 

So yes, I often get worried that we're not moving at the pace I'd like to see, that he's not as organized as I'd like him to be, and he doesn't take charge like I'd want him to. But at this point, that's *his* problem. He has the tools if he chooses to use them. If he wants to spend eight hours a day on school rather than six, or four, okay. If he wants to do five years of high school instead of four, that's okay too.

 

I read somewhere many years ago that over-stressed, over-scheduled adults start out as over-stressed, over-scheduled kids, and that made sense to me.

 

We had a commercial here a year or two ago -- I can't even remember what it was for. "Feed the dog." "Tie your shoes." "Do your homework." Something about having to remind kids over and over to do these simple things. I think the point of the commercial was, if it takes that many reminders to get kids to tie their shoes, how many times do you think you need to talk to them about drugs, etc.? That made sense to me, too.

 

And in that post to the old board, I was reminded that kids in PS, even in high school, aren't really expected to manage their assignments the way we might like our HS kids to do. They are, basically, given their assignments every day and expected to do them. They aren't expected to figure out on their own what they're supposed to be working on.

 

So the point of all this rambling is -- I just give him the assignments and expect them to be done. Time management is his own problem. If, at the end of the week, there is still work to be done -- and I'm sure he's had enough time, whether he made good use of it or not -- then he works on it over the weekend. If it *still* isn't done, then summer school -- which is what we're looking at right now.

 

Good luck!

[Maura in NY]

Thank you for the ideas. Keep 'em coming! It's not like we're new at this (we've homeschooled for 7+ years), but sometimes I just need a fresh perspective.

 

I like the idea of alternating easy and hard subjects. Or even school work with other tasks. I will suggest this to him. And I really want to believe that a morning meeting would help, but honestly, I've tried it before, and it really seems like nothing I say goes in! I guess I just need to keep trying.

 

I'm considering using TRISMs next year, so that would give us a chance to try giving him control over some of the scheduling, while continuing to hand him the math, science, Spanish, and literature stuff.

 

Kris, I had to laugh at your first paragraph.

Hi, Maura -- I *so* feel your pain! I posted a similar question on the old boards a year or two ago. It's hard to read here about all the self-motivated five year olds who can do their own lesson plans, grade their own assignments, plan unit studies that interest them, get it all done before noon, spend their afternoons doing volunteer work, cook dinner, put themselves to bed, and then get themselves up the next morning to do it all again! Meanwhile, your teenager is giving you a blank stare when you ask them why they didn't think they needed to grab a pencil before coming to do their math. :-D

Yes! That is exactly how I feel! Especially because this is a very bright boy and friends just assume that he is that highly motivated, pencil-at-the-ready student - NOT!

 

Peace,

Maura

[ChrisN in NY]

Your ds sounds a LOT like my oldest, who's 21 now.

 

He was (and is) very bright, but he SO struggled with organization, time management, and getting school done.

 

For example, one day I asked him "What did you get done today?" And he showed me the list. We agreed together about how much time each item took. Out of six hours, he could account for half. "What did you do the other three hours?" "I don't know."

 

Finally one day I realized, he REALLY DIDN'T KNOW! I had been perusing the old boards, reading a post that described my son nearly to a T. One of the replies was along the lines of "I used to think disorganization, laziness, and poor time management were his problems" until a doctor recommended testing for ADD. I've tried to go back and find this answer, because there were also a lot of web links which were really helpful for me.

 

My ds, then 17, was away for that summer, but I spoke to his doctor a bit, and did some reading. It explained A LOT of the past 17 years, let me tell you! I talked to ds when he got home... he laughed. Why? Because the teens he'd been with all summer kept telling him he must be ADD!

 

Ds wasn't a climb-the-curtains kind of kid, so I never would have guessed it when he was young. But we had him evaluated and the conclusion was "off the charts" (my term) inattentive ADD. He took meds for awhile, and the difference was huge. This whole thing was such an encouragement to him.

 

I'm not saying your son DOES HAVE ADD, but that it's something worth considering.

 

One of the books that was really helpful for us was Driven to Distraction, by Edward Hallowell. There are a number of books on amazon.com now that look quite helpful.

 

HTH

[lv2sing]

Briefly, my I add, that sometimes when people are "just sitting staring out the window" it appears that they are doing nothing. However, many people ARE doing something....thinking. "Stew pot thinking" is some of the most creative, original and ingenious thinking that can be done. Maybe this is not the case here, but I thought it worth putting the thought out there.

 

Secondly, a trick I use that none of my children like, but that it does work very effectively for short durations, is the timer. It gives us a plan and then we go work it.

 

Joy to you today,

 

Ronda

[lv2sing]

A man at a hs conference once told us that to help his kids figure out that they were responsible for their school work, he told them that if they were behind at the holidays they would do school on that day. They could eat with them but have to go back to their work after the meal. He said that at least 2 of the older ones had to do that, but ONLY once and the younger ones got it and never did have to do that in highschool. Kinda radical, but you know our lives are like that now, don't you think?

 

Ronda

[Maura in NY]

When ds was little (5 to 7), we had him tested for ADD on two separate occasions by two separate psychologists, with teacher and parent input questionnaires. Both times he came up "just below the bar" in terms of ADD. In other words, he leans that way. But he is definitely a dreamer. He wants to be a writer, has several novels in the works, and is a renown storyteller among up stories for all his younger friends and cousins. When he isn't paying attention to me, it's not because his mind is bouncing every which way from Sunday (what does that mean?), but because he is completely absorbed internally in something else. When he's been nodding along to my explanations, but clearly wasn't listening, he can repeat the last thing I said, and then tell me everything that he was thinking instead of paying attention. Argh!

 

So I think it's some of both. A "spectrum thing," as I think of it. (Actually, he's probably NLD as well, but none of the interventions are particularly appropriate because he is bright enough to compensate for everything, except frustration!)

 

Thanks for the insight,

Maura

[Kendall]

My almost 13 year old is very similar to other students described in these posts. I go back and forth between shouldn't he be able to do this himself and if I don't help him he is getting nowhere.

 

We don't know if ADD is an issue but my guess is he would fall just below the line or over it.

 

One of the books on adult ADD talked about learning to work with how you are and this might mean lists and schedules and someone to be accountable to. So if an adult with ADD might need that, a student with ADD or just ADD tendencies might need that as well.

 

The thing that has worked the best for us is to give him a set schedule (which he helped design) so that each day he has X amount of time at a set time each day for each subject. Anything that doesn't get done during that time gets done during his free time. I always let him have 25-30 minutes activity around the lunch hour, but if he has really 'lost' a lot of time during the day then at least some of his 'homework' gets done right after school in the afternoon. It isn't pleasant to reinforce this, but it is what has finally convinced him that he needs to spend his schooltime on school. He still 'loses' time during the day, but the percentage is so much higher than it was before we did this.

 

I also have realized over the year, that unlike my first son, this one can not be counted on to figure out that if he read pages 100-120 on Monday then 120-140 needs to be read on Tuesday. I have to really spell everything out. I hope over time I can back off and he will figure it out, but for now there is less frustration all around if I spell things out very specifically.

 

I don't like doing things this way. I much prefered to tell my older son to work for X amount of time reading Y book and have him work well during the whole time. I know there are times that the assignment I give this second son is really too long, but I usually have no way of judging that unless I sit and watch him the whole time (which I can't do).

 

HTH,

Kendall

[Kris]

Kris, I had to laugh at your first paragraph.

 

Good, 'cause I was chuckling while I wrote it, too. :-)

 

Yes! That is exactly how I feel! Especially because this is a very bright boy and friends just assume that he is that highly motivated, pencil-at-the-ready student - NOT!

 

Exactly! As a matter of fact, the way I know he *has* the skills and tools to motivate and organize himself is because I've seen him do it -- better than *I* every could -- when it's a project that "lights him up." He's a completely different kid. The trick is to get him that interested in everything that needs to be done, and I haven't figured that out yet.

 

It's frustrating when it seems all those smarts are going to waste, but I really don't think they are. I think they're just well-hidden and will reveal themselves in time. Hopefully about the time I'm ready to retire, he'll invent the next "Pet Rock" and buy me a house. :D

[Starr]

"Ds what are you doing?"

"I'm thinking thoughts", he answered matter of factly.

"How about thinking some thoughts I have for you???" That pretty much sums up our life! LOL

[Carmen_and_Company]

When ds was little (5 to 7), we had him tested for ADD on two separate occasions by two separate psychologists, with teacher and parent input questionnaires. Both times he came up "just below the bar" in terms of ADD. In other words, he leans that way. But he is definitely a dreamer. He wants to be a writer, has several novels in the works, and is a renown storyteller among up stories for all his younger friends and cousins. When he isn't paying attention to me, it's not because his mind is bouncing every which way from Sunday (what does that mean?), but because he is completely absorbed internally in something else. When he's been nodding along to my explanations, but clearly wasn't listening, he can repeat the last thing I said, and then tell me everything that he was thinking instead of paying attention. Argh!

 

So I think it's some of both. A "spectrum thing," as I think of it. (Actually, he's probably NLD as well, but none of the interventions are particularly appropriate because he is bright enough to compensate for everything, except frustration!)

 

Thanks for the insight,

Maura

 

Maura, my experience with my eldest is almost identical. We had a second opinion done at 13, with findings of Taz being ADHD without hyperactivity.

We then zeroed in on creating daily, weekly, and monthly rhythms for him.

 

In the beginning, we met daily to discuss what assignments to work on and how much time to allot to each subject. If Taz went into lala land, he knew homework was the result of not completing assignments during school time. As Taz entered 10th grade, we switched our focus from daily meetings to weekly meetings where I printed off a week's worth of assignments from HsT. We discussed how Taz would approach completing the list of weekly assignments each Sunday or Monday in preparation for the coming week. As we discussed the assignments, we also chose the times of day that worked best for him. So, although the bulk of school assignments were expected completed during the day, many assignments Taz completed during the evening, or at night. Helping Taz gain control of his schedule and own it, helped with organization skills. Scheduling in hour breaks throughout the day afforded Taz the time to hyper focus on his science research, experiments, and writings.

 

Taz uses a vibrating wrist watch that he programs to go off at specific times during the day. He keeps a planner that not only lists assignments, but those hour breaks, appointments, outside activities, and other important dates.

 

So some steps & helpful ideas:

 

1. The work area must be kept clean & organized even if your ds must delay the start of school to get the area back in order.

 

2. Keep the work area stocked with supplies kept in designated containers, drawers, or organizers.

 

3. Keep a visual schedule at eye level, such one of those small dry-erase boards with calendar markings, or one of those $5 office desk calendars hung on hooks.

 

4. No distractions allowed in work area. Keep the area clutter free, and free of any articles not necessary to completing school work.

 

5. Every book has a place & must return to it's place. No exceptions.

 

6. Use a two or three tiered in/out basket system--work needing correction in one slot, work completed in one slot, and work to file in the third slot.

 

7. Clean out binders & notebooks every Friday in preparation for Monday.

 

8. File, file, file.

 

10. Teach Cornell note-taking

 

11. Meet daily in weakest subject

 

12. Ask pointed question about studies

 

13. Stating you need to complete x assignment in y minutes creates mental anguish. As your son will focus on the clock & not the assignment. Have your child begin the assignment & state you will check in on him periodically to see how he's faring. Check on him every 10-15 minutes. He'll get the assignment done so you'll leave him alone.

 

14. Begin with the hardest assignments first.

 

15. If your ds goes backward, go back to daily meetings, and move forward.

 

16 Issue grades on every assignment, even an F.

 

Do not give in one inch on the work area set-up--not one millimeter.

 

If you find your ds on Planet X, bring him back to reality by having him quickly type up his thoughts, tell him he can continue with his mental vacation on his next break, then transition him back to the assignment at hand.

 

Don't feel discouraged if at first, you must spend more time with him than an average toddler. You may even find yourself holding his hand as he whines through an assignment. Let him whine, but demand the assignment be completed no matter how boring or painful your ds makes the assignment out to be. No fun subjects until he's finished the icky ones. The longer he thinks about how dumb the assignment as he ventures off to lala land, the longer that dumb assignment sits there uncompleted.

 

Let your ds take lots of breaks. I know such advise sounds counterproductive, but he may need those frequent breaks to order his thoughts, and to transition to a new subject.

[Gwen in VA]

Oh Carmen -- what a WONDERFUL list! Can you come over to my house and give a pep talk to my son? Seriously, that is an amazingly complete list!

 

I have two completely opposite thoughts on disorganized daydreaming kids --

 

1) Work hard / Play hard. I try to teach my kids to focus on school so they can get it done efficiently and have more time for what they choose to do. Being in lala land is time wasted, and I try to get them to see that.

 

2) Time in lala land is central to some people's being. It is the way they think. My dh gets his eureka ideas, his way-out-of-the-box-I-finally-figured-out-how-to-do-this idea, while doing "nothing". He will take a 30 minute shower and will come out with a great big grin having solved something that has been bugging him for a month or more. He will just be sitting seemingly vegetating on the sofa and he will figure out an approach to a problem at work. If my dh didn't have time to do "nothing" he would not be the neat interesting person he is.

[Maura in NY]

You people are awesome! I need to print out this thread; there are so many great ideas.

 

Kris -- Yes! I know he CAN focus when he is interested, and not just on things like LEGOs and computer games. He will write for 3 or 4 hours at a stretch. He has a cooperative writing wiki that he created and moderates for 20 some kids. But if he's not interested or vested, he's frequently checked out! Are you sure it's not one kid, tesseracting back and forth?

 

Thank you so much for all the ideas and encouragement, folks.

 

Peace,

Maura

[Kris]

Kris -- Yes! I know he CAN focus when he is interested, and not just on things like LEGOs and computer games. He will write for 3 or 4 hours at a stretch. He has a cooperative writing wiki that he created and moderates for 20 some kids. But if he's not interested or vested, he's frequently checked out! Are you sure it's not one kid, tesseracting back and forth?

 

You might be on to something here! :D

[Jan P.]

Thank you for the list! I've been trying to find something like this from numerous ADD/ADHD type books to no avail. I've been leaning towards some of these suggestions already. This will be a lifesaver for me!

 

Blessings,

Jan