3byzaz Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is my first post on the high school board - that is scary!! :D My oldest is pretty darn smart. He has an Oct. b-day - we started K "early" by ps guidelines. He was reading already and K was a breeze. He has always stayed totally on track - probably a little ahead and I keep him at his pace - maybe slowing him down some. He turned 13 in Oct and is doing 8th at home now. He is amazing in Science - can rig out house electronically and is very quick. He is doing BJU Phy. Science this year and gets it. Very good at English subjects also - and a great guitar and piano player. He doesn't have a weakness. Math, however, has always been a sticky subject. He has always seemed to 'get it' - to totally understand. BUT...cuz he's the first, we have definitely switched around a LOT! He started out doing VT alg this year - terrible - then Lial's Intro Alg - better, but I realized we needed to do Pre-Alg. I thought we had with LOF, Key To's and a few others last year, but not so much! Anyway, I put him in Kinetic Books Pre-Alg. He likes it a lot since it's on the computer. He does great on the lessons - has flown through it, but is NOT doing well on quizzes and tests. I am sure it is mostly a studying thing, but I am concerned about continuing with it because I can't help him without a book. I don't need to do all the lessons with him and don't feel like I have the time (or energy - terrible, I know), but my hubby and I would like to be able to help. I would like to find something I can use for the duration. Alg 1 - whatever. I think he would do well with TT, but the criticisms about the 'easy' and 'not rigorous enough' here make me nervous. I want him to be well prepared for college level math and would like a high school program that is not too easy, but not too hard. I like that it has a book and the cd's. So, I am wondering about using TT and then LOF to follow it up or a combo of some sort. He liked LOF. Has anyone done this? How has it worked? Is it too much? Just right? He is a fast worker, so I'm not too concerned about it being too time consuming. I guess we could do KB and LOF also and it would be cheaper?? I am also considering BJU online Alg (and possibly science too - maybe whole program and just using these two, plus foreign lang.) Sorry soooo long - does anyone have any BTDT wisdom for me??? I would sooo appreciate it!!! Maureen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 T He does great on the lessons - has flown through it, but is NOT doing well on quizzes and tests. I am sure it is mostly a studying thing, I do not understand what you mean by "studying thing". There is no need to "study" in math- you need to understand the concept and practice it. So, not succeeding in tests can have basically two reasons: either he is not understanding the concept, or he is careless because he did not have enough practice to really do things automatically. If you say he gets the concepts, that can only mean the program offers inadequate practice. If he is not doing well on his prealgebra tests and quizzes, I would by no means advance to algebra, that is a recipe for disaster. He needs to be solid in prealgebra. If practice is the issue, I would recommend something drill based like Saxon. I don't like it, but it gets the job done. Only AFTER he has mastered prealgebra I would consider having him do algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 I mean he doesn't study for the test - look over the material. You don't have to study for an algebra test??? I wouldn't move him on - he has a way to go. I'm looking ahead for next year. Sorry to not be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I mean he doesn't study for the test - look over the material. You don't have to study for an algebra test??? No, you do not have to study for an algebra test. You have to master the material through practice until you can do the problems... if you have mastered them, you can do them after a week, a month, a year. A student who needs to specifically study for an algebra test has not truly mastered the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keniki Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I agree he shouldn't have to study for an algebra test. I see your other two are using CLE math, and I was thinking he was too. Is there a reason he isn't? I highly recommend it, but I know you are familiar with it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 I didn't put him in CLE because I thought he was too far along to jump in late to it. I wish I had a couple of years ago. I LOVE CLE and am very thankful to have found it for my other two. He also likes the computer a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 You don't need to study for a math test. IMO, if you like CLE, try the placement test. It is not "too late." I don't know how KB works, but he definitely needs to be working the problems out. There are other things he can do on the computer. He might be able to go back to the computer. Now, he needs to work on The Basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3andme Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I'm not sure I would give up on KB just yet if he likes it. You do say he is flying through it which makes me wonder if he's really trying to understand the concepts or just clicking along to see the right answer and moving on. Which quizzes and tests, is he not doing well on? The chapter tests or the units within the chapter? Is he doing all the online Kinetic Homework sections and the hard copy end of unit problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 A student who needs to specifically study for an algebra test has not truly mastered the material. I agree with this--with the exception of the occasional need to learn mathematical vocabulary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks for the help. By flying through, I meant not having any trouble on the lesson work. He has an upper 90s avg on those scores. Quizzes and tests are lower - like 70s at last check. It was 74. I think he does do the lesson and is able to with no problem, but is probably going too quickly and not really focusing on it. Then, takes the quiz or test and makes silly mistakes...it's usually very close. He has had this same thing throughout math. Even in the beginning of KB pre-alg, where it was very basic and he totally knows it, he didn't do well on them because of silly mistakes or whatever. I'm sure I have ruined his math life...:tongue_smilie: I am not giving up on KB - he will continue the pre-alg with support and assistance. I am just looking ahead. Didn't think we should get KB Alg 1 because I find it difficult to jump in and provide assistance without a book to look over. But, we'll see... Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlovebaker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) but there is a textbook for KB pre-alg. It's in pdf format. I've saved it to my laptop and nook in case I need it - I do think it's helpful, as a parent, to have a reference. You might want to print at least the chapter he's working on to start - the whole text is long (maybe 400 or so pages). I like KB so far ... it's mostly self-explanatory and self-checking although I will sit in with my kids when they are in need of an extra explanation. No program is completely self-teaching IMO. There are the extra homework problems too ... they are in the textbook (as well as online) so you can just print those to go over with your kid at a leisurely pace. Maybe you already know all this - it just took me a while to figure out KB. Between my three kids, we've done way too many programs - for my now 8th grader (math whiz), we've used VT Algebra (good), VT geo (terrible) and ultimately Thinkwell Geo (excellent); we also did a short stint with AofPS Number Theory (too much for summer but that IS the class for math students - way advanced). For my now 6th graders (good students but not math whizzes), Mammoth Math 4 (4th grade) & 5 (5th grade - fantastic but parent intensive and only sort of self-teaching - my kids like videos and online grading better), Teaching Textbooks 7 (6th grade - easy for mom!). As far as TT, I really had to nothing with this one but I had worries that it was too easy according to this board :). The reason we didn't do TT pre-Algebra because it is not self-grading and my kids really like that instant feedback. Now we are doing KB pre-algeba (6th grade - fairly self-teaching, online grading which is nice). Hope this helps someone. Until I wrote this out, I didn't realize how many programs we've used in the last three years ... This is what I love about homeschooling - keep going until you find the perfect fit! Edited January 16, 2011 by jlovebaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Wow - thanks so much! I did NOT realize there was a textbook available. Seems I read that somewhere in my research, but I thought it was just for the school side - not homeschool version. I will look at that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks again - I just found where the textbook is. I just emailed the company to see if I can purchase it. It says you can only purchase it with a digital one also. Since I did that a while ago, I'm hoping I can still do it. That will be very helpful - thank you so much!! This may be the answer we need!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I won't try to suggest a specific book, b/c it sounds like you have several good ones to choose from. . . But, I will share with you that both my olders, who're both very bright and are both advanced in math & other subjects. . . BOTH have had to WORK in Algebra. It came as a shock to all of us, lol. I have come to believe that Algebra (at least a solid, challenging Algebra) simply requires a great deal more concentration, time, effort than any prior math. They have to stretch their brains. For bright kids, this can come as a shock, lol. So, I'd be wary that your 13 yo, like mine, might be resistant to putting in the required effort. I've found I need to enforce a schedule/deadlines for Algebra. My kids needed to put in an avg of an hour or more each day to complete our Algebra (Thinkwell's Intermediate Algebra) in a year, whereas in every prior math (and also LoF Geometry), they can get away with 2-3 hours a week (max, lol) and complete a "year" in 6 months or so. Algebra just takes more time. (That most Algebra programs, including ours, review most/all of lower math/pre-alg in the first few chapters adds to the time commitment, as those earlier concepts are not simplistic & may require some significant effort to relearn/review at such a rapid pace!) Also, Algebra is just hard & most kids need some hand holding. A 'normal' school would obviously provide that daily. Both my kids have needed occasional assistance in understanding a concept. Of course, I had routinely provided that same assistance in lower math, but once you get to Algebra, that takes more work from Mom (even for a mathy-mom like me, who excelled in math through Calc. . . I don't remember all that stuff either!) When dc hits an exercise he isn't getting, then I have to watch the lecture, review the sample problems & notes, then work through the exercises. Helping with a day's assignment might take me 30 min as opposed to the 3 min it took back in the lower math. . . This is a PITA, but needed. So, I suggest that unless you or dh feel comfortable & willing to tackle understanding/learning/relearning the material, then having a session with a math tutor a couple times a month (or even weekly) could help your son tackle trouble spots. That's what I'd do if I couldn't dive in & figure it out when dc needs help. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I mean he doesn't study for the test - look over the material. You don't have to study for an algebra test??? I wouldn't move him on - he has a way to go. I'm looking ahead for next year. Sorry to not be clear. No, in general one does not need to 'study' for a math test in the traditional 'memorize/reread these notes' way. One needs to work problems until s/he understands them sufficiently to do them for the test. On occasion, he might need to memorize a few formulas which might require a bit of official 'studying'. My kids' Alg program provides a Practice Test prior to each test. They do the practice test, identify problems they couldn't do, then review those sections/exercises by working a few similar problems to the point of proficiency. Math mastery is all about working problems. If the math program doesn't provide a Practice Test, then you have to pick problems from each exercise to practice prior to the exam. (That's the way I did it through high school, college, grad school.) Go through each exercise picking sample problems of each problem type; do them; check them; redo more until you've got it nailed. (FWIW, this is also how most physics, chemistry, O chem studying works in math-based science courses.) HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 I definitely think there is an effort issue as well. He does work for a minimum of an hour. But, yes - I think the focus needs to be upped. He never says if he needs help and I don't think he is working as hard as necessary on certain problems...we've been talking about all this! He is willing, luckily - such a great boy! I think you are right - it is surprising to him to have to 'work' at it. I need to make sure I am paying attention. I get very busy with my youngest and sitting and working with him - then teaching other subjects...and you are right again - the times slips away. I can still do the pre and probably Alg 1 and then I will probably be in trouble!! :) Thanks again for everyone's help! It has helped to clarify some things, for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 How, exactly, is he "flying thru" the lessons? I don't have the homeschool version of KB, so I can't check exactly how it works, but as I remember on the regular version, you can retry the problems on the lessons until you get them correct. So maybe he's doing that. I'd suggest sitting beside him as he works thru a full lesson. Make sure he's reading, viewing and listening to the whole thing, and actually working out the problems before clicking buttons. I suspect he (like many students) is taking shortcuts along the way. The KB math programs are, in my opinion, very well done and quite rigorous. I wouldn't give up on it yet. If he gets thru Pre-Algebra, he will be very well prepared for Algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Oh - just going quickly - he is just a quick worker. I just meant that he wasn't having any trouble. I've been sitting in with him as well as constantly asking and he hasn't expressed any troubles. We will just work on making sure he's ready before a quiz or test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlovebaker Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I think you just download it from the main screen once you've logged in - toward the bottom, I think. Glad to help and good luck! Thanks again - I just found where the textbook is. I just emailed the company to see if I can purchase it. It says you can only purchase it with a digital one also. Since I did that a while ago, I'm hoping I can still do it. That will be very helpful - thank you so much!! This may be the answer we need!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I think you just download it from the main screen once you've logged in - toward the bottom, I think. Glad to help and good luck! I'm not sure this is true for the new homeschool editions. Likewise, for the Physics products, if you have a disc, you don't get access to the PDF version; it's only the internet version that has the PDF file of the text along with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchser Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Oh - just going quickly - he is just a quick worker. I just meant that he wasn't having any trouble. I've been sitting in with him as well as constantly asking and he hasn't expressed any troubles. We will just work on making sure he's ready before a quiz or test. It sounds like you have my son there! He's almost 14, 8th grade and working through KB Algebra 1. Bright guy - but tends to be on the lazy side, moving very quickly through his work just to get done... In the same way as your son, mine also does very well on all the lesson work, consistently in the 90's. But when it comes to quizzes and tests, he does poorly. I finally realized what's going on. When he does the daily lesson work, he is given 3 tries (or is it 2?). If he gets it wrong, he has another shot. But the quizzes and tests don't give you any more chances. So by getting used to careless errors and then just fixing them as he went along every day, he wasn't prepared to check and re-check his answers before submitting when he was doing the test. I haven't figured out the solution yet, except to stress the importance of careful work. Adding in some motivations are probably the key here as well. In other words, a little kick in the butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3byzaz Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Oh, so glad I'm not the only one!! But, this is true for him, I am realizing. We had a year a long time ago with SOS - ugh!! Anyway, that was the same - we could just clear the answer. Can't do it as much on paper...all that to say, I am still seriously considering TT cuz there will be a book AND the computer part that he likes, but he will have to work it out. I would, most likely, follow it up with a more typical Alg. curriculum or something?!! LOF??? I have definitely learned that a computer only program is not good for us here, but a combo might be great!! Thanks for commiserating!! We have discussed it and he is backing up and re-doing this last section that caused difficulty. He is having spend all the time making sure he gets it. I am going to start working my way through the video portion only to try to get up to speed, so I can be of more help!! Thanks again to everyone for their wisdom!!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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