Can I/Should I/Would you even try...to re-meld my children's history/lit studies?

[Rhondabee]

Goodness, I wish I could post this anonymously. :blushing:

 

A very long story short:

 

For reasons that don't matter now, I chose a pre-planned curriculum this year after doing all the planning myself, using mostly WTM, for the past 5 years. My 7th grader is now studying 1600-1850 (he skipped MiddleAges/Renaissance to be ready for Ancients in 9th), and my 10th grader is studying World history.

 

Right now I don't see how we can ever go back to having history "all together" again - and I hate that. I feel like I have destroyed everything that we used to really enjoy about homeschool - and having the boys studying different things has greatly lengthened my days.

 

So, the past two days I've been looking at Biblioplan trying to think of a way to meld my 7th grader and my 10th grader back together. The only way I can think of is to break completely from what we are doing, and begin a shortened Middle Ages/Renaissance for the rest of the year, flying by the seat of my pants. But I wonder if it's truly worth it?

 

(Really, I don't think my kids care. Well....I think my 7th grader would care once we got back to everything he's already studied this year, iykwim.)

 

There's a part of me that says maybe it's time for my oldest to go to mostly online classes (or maybe even to school!). He certainly tries harder and does better in his online classes than in any of his "mom" or "video" classes, even though the online classes are more demanding. I *could* start looking for something like AP US History and an American Lit class for next year, and then he could take Government and Economics in 12th grade (paired with ?? for English).

 

So, I guess I'm just tired of listening to me argue with myself about this - LOL! Is it time to cut the apron strings? What would you do?

 

:bigear:

Edited November 24, 2010 by Rhondabee

[regentrude]

I have my children in different history eras, it just worked out this way, and they really don't care.

A 10th grader should be able to work mostly independently, so it should not take too much of your time - just turn the work and responsibility over to him. (My 13 y/o does most of her work independently; I am there as a sounding board, for discussions, to provide materials, and to help design writing assignments. Really not very time consuming.)

Unless your kids WANT to do things differently, I'd leave things as they are.

[Julie in MN]

Can you find something to do together? Maybe science or foreign language or electives? Or even parts of the history/literature such as read-alouds, writing a paper, giving a speech? I value family learning time, but it doesn't have to be in every subject.

 

Julie

[Lori D.]

Rhonda, it sounds like you have two questions to answer, and one must be settled first before answering the second:

 

1. How should older DS be learning history:

a. online class or outside class

b. at home

 

If your answer is a.)

Then there is no need to change what younger DS is doing. Your time will be spent this year in finishing what you settled on for both DSs, even though it is time-intensive for you. Plus, you will want to be researching your options for online and outside classes for older DS for next year. So your focus will need to be time managament and perseverance. :)

 

If your answer is b.)

Then you can combine both DSs again, going with whatever history older DS needs to cover.

 

 

2. What should I do curriculum-wise?

If your answer to question 1 was option a.), then your choices are easy -- you will be outsourcing older DS and will not be responsible for the curriculum other than researching which option to go with, and you can continue on course with younger DS, doing whatever your plan was for 8th grade, and doing ancients in 9th grade.

 

If your answer to question 1 was option b.), then you will need to think through some other questions:

 

- What are your history goals for older DS?

(i.e., what history period do you feel MUST be covered, or does he really WANT to cover -- or has he thoroughly covered history by now and could use that as a worldview/world culture/world geography year -- or drop history entirely to have time to pursue a personal interest or career-oriented credit)

 

- Do state education requirements dictate that older DS needs a year of American History? Or if not required, would you and DS want to do that?

(11th grade is usually the year most students do that; and based on some of your other curriculum choices, I think you and DS would find the Notgrass American History very enjoyable)

 

- If you do bring both DSs back together again for history next year, it sounds like they will be separate again the following year, as younger DS would do ancient history, while older DS would do gov't/econ; is that okay with you?

 

- What are your literature goals for older DS?

(I suggest listing what works you (and DS!) REALLY want covered, and sketch out a rough schedule; if a number of the works go with a history period that you want to cover, great! do them that year, and include the remaining "odd ducks" in DS's senior year as he studies gov't/econ)

 

- What are your history/social studies goals for younger DS?

(ex: middle school is a perfect time to take a year break from the history cycle and do a worldview / comparative religions / world culture and geography study)

 

- Is it reasonable for your older high schooler and younger middle schooler to really be able to read/discuss the same lit. if you bring them back together; or would you have separate literature and just joint history?

 

- How much of the literature WILL DSs really be able to discuss together?

(ex: while Brave New World or All Quiet on the Western Front might be okay for older DS, they would not be appropriate for younger DS; while Communist Manifesto may be fine for 12th gr. gov't, younger student may not be ready for or interested in concepts)

 

- What are your state educational requirements for high school for younger DS?

(perhaps start with those and work backwards from the senior year and see where you might be able to be flexible in scheduling to join up younger DS with older DS's last years of high school; example:

12th = gov't/econ (most states require)

11th = Amer. Hist. (most states require)

10th = ?

9th = ancient world history (your plan, but also fulfills state required credit of world history) -- or, bump to 10th gr. and may be able to join up with older DS

8th = ? -- may be able to join up with older DS

7th = 1600-1850 -- or, may be able to drop and do in high school to be able to join up with older DS now

 

 

Not to make it more confusing, but here are several option ideas:

 

7th/10th - continue with what you have

8th/11th - modern history (or other) / gov't & econ

9th/12th - ancient history together

 

OR

 

7th/10th - continue with what you have

8th/11th - American History together

9th/12th - ancient history / gov't & econ

 

OR

 

7th/10th* - drop 7th gr. history at semester break; spring semester fold 7th into 10th's World Hist.

8th/11th - American History together

9th/12th - ancient history / gov't & econ

 

 

* = at this stage, you have more time to work in any missed history in later years for the middle schooler, but have very little time left to get done what must be done for a high schooler)

 

 

BEST of luck as you work your way through this tangle! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Blueridge]

Have you considered Tapestry of Grace, Konos HOW, or MFW high school? Those can be used with everyone 'on the same history page'. Konos takes more work to adapt to younger kids, but it is possible. I've done it. :) You might also consider Learning Adventures, and add more rigor for your oldest child.

[Chris in VA]

I wouldn't want a 7th grader and a 10th grader doing the same thing.

If you are in the same period, you still have to do different reading and assignments; I mean, one is middle school, one is high school, so they should be doing different things!

I don't see the difference, really, between doing two different time periods and doing the same period.

 

I don't think you ruined anything, really!:001_smile:

[Janice in NJ]

My Dear Ms. Rhondabee,

 

Goodness, I wish I could post this anonymously. :blushing:

 

Why blush? I'm in the same boat most of the time. Grand plans that I am SURE will work until they don't. Then I crawl back up to the drawing board AND confess to the group here that I don't know much of anything. And then I ask for more advice. Should I be blushing? ;)

 

A very long story short:

 

For reasons that don't matter now, I chose a pre-planned curriculum this year after doing all the planning myself, using mostly WTM, for the past 5 years. My 7th grader is now studying 1600-1850 (he skipped MiddleAges/Renaissance to be ready for Ancients in 9th), and my 10th grader is studying World history.

 

Right now I don't see how we can ever go back to having history "all together" again - and I hate that. I feel like I have destroyed everything that we used to really enjoy about homeschool - and having the boys studying different things has greatly lengthened my days.

 

I'm there with you with the "I feel like I have destroyed _____. Yup. Felt that too. But then I usually reflect back on WHY I changed what I did, and then I'm usually left feeling like, "Hey! I changed this for a good reason. And that reason trumps some warm cuddly feeling that didn't really FIT with our life." or I think, "Hey, what? Why did I ever do that? This might work for ____, but it's not working for us. This stinks. We're going back to ____. That fits us."

 

Either way, you gotta do what works for your family. Everyone else's reasons are lifeless if they're not yours. You gotta make the reasons breathe in your day-to-day, my sister, or else you'll start to feel like you're being suffocated. What works for me? To really hold things up to the light. Practical. Do-able. And result-producing. If my kids aren't growing as people then I switch gears. Are they chatting about what they are reading about? Do the ideas frustrate without suffocating? Check. Are they growing as readers and writers? Do they have something to say after they read? Check. Are they being mushed out of shape by the materials they are interacting with? Woo-hoo! Are they able to re-shape themselves? Double woo-hoo!

 

It's a bit like washing a delicate sweater in the washing machine. Sure, I could wash it by hand. But we are steppin' in life. I have no time to stand there at the sink trying to wring the water out of something by hand. All of that water dripping off my elbows. Sure I could do it, but life is screaming by. No time for that. So I toss it into the machine. I have much less control over the process, but I'm finding out that if I'm careful at certain POINTS of the process, it works for us. After spending time spinning, my kids come out rumpled and out-of-shape. SO if I have chosen the materials correctly, their reading has infiltrated the fibers of their thoughts. Check. It needs to get IN there in order to do some good. If they aren't coming to me or if they have NOTHING to say in the car as we're driving somewhere and I ask them about ____, then the fibers were locked. The water didn't make it in. Nothing happened. Re-adjust. (LOVE hsing for that. Just LOVE IT!) BUT if the water made it in, then the sweater came out all skee-wonkered. Woo-Hoo. One arm is grossly longer than the other. The front left-corner is horribly mashed into a wrinkled knot. This kid is really bothered about something. "You know, Mom, I was OK with most of it, but did you know that ________?" Ta-dA! Time to dig into the soul and see what we find there. Great stuff. Growth. So you spend an hour slowly re-shaping things on the drying rack. We do it together. When we get all done, we can both still see that the sweater isn't the same as when we put it into the machine. They never stay the same, do they? But I can tell that the kid is much more comfortable with the new "her." Growth. A baby grows up and discovers who she is and who SHE is supposed to be. Good stuff that.

 

So, yes. Life changes in high school. MUCH less of a shared experience as a family in this house. MUCH less. I think that was the hardest part about learning what works for us as a family in hsing high school. I saw that four-year rotation as a rinse-n-repeat thing. Life in the grammar stage with all of us cuddled under blankets in the afternoon reading SL books has NOT been repeated for the past four years around here. MUCH sighing over the fact that younger son's logic-stage years have NOT been like older ds's logic stage years. Blah, blah blah. :001_smile: Younger son has a different life because he is the younger son. Oh well. (psst. He is getting a great education. Much wiser momma. Much!)

 

Everyone gets what they need when they need it around here. It's different for everyone. But it's all good!

 

So push aside regret and do what you need to do when you need to do it, my sister! Be fearless! Chin up! I'm sure your decisions are suiting your family for the day. If they aren't, change them. If they are, don't let some shadow from your past trump who you are and what you are doing.

 

There's a part of me that says maybe it's time for my oldest to go to mostly online classes (or maybe even to school!). He certainly tries harder and does better in his online classes than in any of his "mom" or "video" classes, even though the online classes are more demanding. I *could* start looking for something like AP US History and an American Lit class for next year, and then he could take Government and Economics in 12th grade (paired with ?? for English).

Older ds and I are doing few things solo this year (His senior year.) - almost all of the classes on his schedule are either online, at the community college, or completely out-side paced (Thinkwell Economics, etc). AND it is going well. He was ready to be out from under my pace; he doesn't trust it anymore. And that's turning out to be a good thing. He had four non-momma classes his junior year, and that has turned out to be a good thing too. The engineering colleges that we have been working with have welcomed the outside letters of recommendation and the outside validation.

 

Oh - and a bit of info from our end? The engineering schools that we are looking at couldn't give a rats-hind-end what kind of courses he has had in the "social sciences." They just want a list of textbooks to match with the course description,and they would prefer that there are four credits of course descriptions . Period. No additional interest what-so-ever. Oh - except for the SAT/ACT score. Results in reading and writing skills. Period. Just results. No interest in how we got there. (So you gotta get there. :001_smile: Use whatever means are at your disposal, momma! Just get there!) From the college's end though? Just check the boxes and PROVE that you got results. Other colleges might care. Other departments might care. But not for this kid. The colleges that we are looking at just want the kid to haul his hinder-end over the high-jump bar. Get over the bar, get the score in critical reading and writing and you're in. Oh - and get the math score too. Gotta have it all, baby! ;) (Psst. Happy dance here. This kid managed a 750 for his math score on the last SAT go-round. Tough for him to do; he's not a timed-test taker. AND he wouldn't listen to me and study. I have ALL the stuff. All the tools. But this kid wouldn't use them. But he did it. Huge sigh of relief. Psyched! I really didn't think he could/would do it. But he did. On his own. He would NOT let me help. So life is what it is. They carve out their own path sometimes. And that's not always a bad thing. :001_smile: TOTALLY gut-wrenching when you're in the middle of it, but distance offers one the chance to wax poetic as you secretly gasp for air on the side. Cool that! )

 

Seriously though. You can use the means that you want to; there is a LOT of room with those "social science" and "English" credits. And that's a GOOD thing. Really. That's a huge opportunity on your end. (I hear ya! Sometimes I wish that someone would just TELL me what to do too.) BUT it really is better that those boxes are blank. SO much room to put good things in there based on the kid rather than a one-size fits all. Really. Math and science have such narrow descriptions at the high school level. Most kids who have a "normal" high school have the exact same list. Very little room to vary things unless you have the guts to do it. But there is no "acceptable" list from literature. Those social science courses have categories - World History. What's that? LOTS of room under that heading. And that's good. Not bad. Don't be afraid to make that course match the child's growth trajectory. That's a good thing! :001_smile:

 

On our end? I'm happy with where I am with my oldest. He's a tough nut (He and I are a LOT alike so we scrap like cats sometimes.) With my younger two, I have a LOT more peace about using the content that I WANT to use in order to grow their person. I can teach them the skills they need with the content I want to teach. I get it now. VERY cool!

 

As a side-note, I found this course very helpful in pulling together my thoughts about teaching the humanities. Lots of "Oh! So that's why we do that" revelations. I knew most of this, but he said so much of it in a way that collected my resolve. Helpful. Not necessarily a set that you need to own, but it was helpful for me to work through it. Highly recommended as something to add to your beg-the-local-librarian list. :001_smile:

 

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=2044&pc=SiteIndex

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Rhondabee]

Janice,

 

I don't know if you've been reading my pm's to others, or if you just can read between my lines so well - LOL! But Thank you, once again, for your wonderful ability to put into words what I'm feeling when even I am finding it hard to label the angst I feel, and offer me your heart-felt empathy. More than words to you, girl!

 

Growing as a person....that has been the topic of conversation around our house a lot lately. Not necessarily academically, either. (And not just the kids!)

 

In "talking" this out over the last few days, I think I've decided my boys are not cut out for independent learning. The "read this by yourself and take notes and then we'll discuss it" method of homeschool. There's just too little accountability; and then they invariably have small misunderstandings that grow into big misunderstandings until it seems they've misunderstood some huge concept and suddenly the discussion is more of a lecture - and a very negative one at that! And then that affects our whole relationship, and our whole day, and everyone else in the whole house. Yet, if we're going to homeschool "at home", that's what it will take because I don't have time to teach 3 kids without some classes being independent. So, I think we're going to have to go with outside classes or school next year. (Heck, I would say "after Christmas" if I thought I were organized enough and could find the right classes!)

 

And, I realize that maybe the world hasn't ended - but I don't look forward to getting up in the morning. Last year both the boys studied Ancients, and it's true they had separate history and literature assignments. But, there was still so much overlap because they *were* studying basically the same people and events and books, and even their science correlated. We were able to study art together and watch movies together. There was "we" time, and the family was integrated - we connected to each other through-out the day. We all looked forward to the day.

 

But now, even if one boy watches the other's science experiment, or a movie or what-not - it doesn't contribute to his day. (It just makes the day longer - ugh!) There is no, "Oh, yeah - I loved *this* part," or "I was so glad when so-and-so finally got it..." in history or about a book in the same way that they talk about video games. They used to talk about school-related "stuff" over lunch and dinner, and it was cool. Now we just happen to co-exist in the same house.

 

But...as far as solutions...I think I've decided I will tweak the World History program to my standards for this year, and do some serious searching for some sort of school situation for my DS for next year. First, because he needs someone besides me for a teacher. Someone who inspires him - and yet holds him accountable with definite test dates, etc. (yes, even when his allergies are acting up or he didn't sleep well!) I guess that sounds hard-nosed, which I'm a wimp-to-the-max at home, but you know - real life is coming, and I see this child beginning to enjoy being at home a little "too much." I worry about every negative stereotype of homeschooling being fulfilled in my DS - LOL!

 

And, yes, I feel horribly guilty when I look at all the work I assigned for my oldest in 7th grade and compare it to what I'm having my current 7th grader do!!! (Shh! don't tell - LOL!) I think the older son is the better for it, to tell the truth, but yes - I can relax a bit mostly because I am more effective as a teacher. I know that path now, so I know what's really important (to me) and what can be glossed over. So it all evens out in the end. My younger ds (the non-writer) now writes the most entertaining science reports EVER! And, here I thought he would *never* be able to write a decent paragraph, but it all happened so suddenly - and with no tears this time around - Wow!

 

Behind my back, I've been holding out on you the thought of actually going back to work. We know a head-master of one of the Christian schools in the area, and he has offered to help me find a job teaching music at a Christian school (there are many in the area). I have a Music Ed degree, and I did enjoy teaching Elementary Music; so the thought isn't completely unattractive. But I hate to do it "just because" I'd really like for oldest DS to go to a Christian school, and this is really the only way we can afford it. I worry about my 7th grader - all the cool stuff the older one has had that he won't get to do! But, you're right. They are different kids completely, and *I* am a different person when they are facing "the big things that boys face". And, if he does go to school, he will learn things there the older one didn't. I still feel guilty just considering the possibility. So, I appreciate your laundry analogy. He's really not the "deep thinker". (I was telling someone else my oldest would really have loved TOG's depth, but not so the younger one.) He'll be fine as long as his academic clothes get washed, you know? LOLOL!!!

 

(And I'm trying to convince myself that if he - the 7th grader - does go to school maybe we'll keep doing Read-Alouds like the Iliad and stuff we have here on audio book....But, Eeeehhh...that might be a stretch, huh? At least I have a well-stocked bookshelf for my old age - LOL! I've always wondered what happened to old WTM'ers like PamSFSOM and Kpzz and others whose posts I once had practically memorized. Maybe I'll find out - LOL!)

 

So...I don't know what will happen. I guess next year is all in God's hands. I know there are things that I do really like about what my kids are doing this year, so I will try to focus on those for now, change what I feel I must, and start anticipating a new direction for our family - whether that's school for the oldest, or school for all of us.

 

I'm sorry this is a little choppy - I'm being intentionally vague about some things. But, maybe putting this out there will be good therapy for me, and help someone else, too - who knows?

 

Thanks, Janice - you're a gem!

 

PS - TTC Art of Teaching looks like it would be worth it just for the info on how to make up exams and how to survive the challenges of teaching (especially not taking conflicts personally - this is the biggest downfall of our homeschool!)

Edited November 26, 2010 by Rhondabee

[Janice in NJ]

Just be psyched about who you are and what you are choosing. Don't let guilt to some ideal (that no one is really holding you to anyway. :001_smile:) keep you from being pumped about what lies ahead for you and yours.

 

Don't put your life into a box. Keep living past the borders. Even the one that you USED to think were good borders! Who knows what lies ahead, eh?

 

I'm trying to just be psyched that it wasn't what I thought it would be. In the end, I figure I already lived that life in my head. Why live it again for real, eh? After all - I already figured out the ending in my head so I might as well live a new-n-different life for real. Who knows? The ending might be even better! :001_smile: At a bare minimum at least it will be interesting!

 

Have a great afternoon!

 

Peace,

Janice

[ChristineMM]

Sounds like a chapter has closed and you are moving on. Don't mean that to sound depressing. We used to do history all together with me reading aloud. Kids listened well while they played or colored in history coloring pages. Those days are over for us.

 

My sons are in grade 8 and 5. They want to read on their own and want different (appropriate) levels. Even Joy Hakim's series should be ok for both but the younger dislikes it. They have different taste. So that chapter has closed for me.

 

Onward and upward. I try not to mourn the good times that are no longer and instead enjoy what it is now which is STILL good if not great! It's just different, that's all. :001_smile:

 

Also I find we connect in other ways, the older they get, like playing more involved board games like Settlers of Catan. Just because reading aloud for history and science is over doesn't mean we no longer relate or have fun together. And we have some good long talks too, especially while in the car with no music playing.