Pro-Saxon folks - your opinion, please?

[8filltheheart]

Because most homeschooling parents don't have advanced degrees in all subjects. What I mean is that something marketed to homeschoolers shouldn't assume there is an instructor with a degree teaching the course. The previous poster was saying that Saxon needed to be taught. While most could assume that role in the lower levels I don't think the same could be said of the advanced levels.

 

Granted, I haven't looked at Saxon in literally almost a decade, but I thought it was marketed as a home study kit which meant that the tests, solutions manual, etc. were included. Most math curriculums do not provide tests.

 

I just deleted the rest of my response b/c I don't want to stray from the OP's thread.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Granted, I haven't looked at Saxon in literally almost a decade, but I thought it was marketed as a home study kit which meant that the tests, solutions manual, etc. were included. Most math curriculums do not provide tests.

 

I just deleted the rest of my response b/c I don't want to stray from the OP's thread.

I think it is marketed as a homestudy kit too, which is why I was replying to (and quoted) the previous poster who said it was designed to be taught and not used independently.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If Saxon is meant to be taught by an instructor how are parents who don't have a degree in math supposed to teach their students upper level math? It was my impression that instructional DVD's/etc were optional (vs. mandatory for MUS). IMHO if something is marketed to homeschoolers (and says homeschool right on it) it should assume there is no instructor.

 

 

That is exactly what I mean...the Saxon Homeschool program is designed to be used by a parent with the student and then a student alone. The videos are optional.

 

My point was that when you have a text that is meant to be taught by a teacher and you have a bad teacher you will have difficulty learning. Hence the pp and my experience with bad math teachers. (My comment being a reference to the shared experience of bad math teachers in school.) Saxon works well either way but the homeschool texts do not, in my experience, assume a parent is a qualified math teacher.

Edited November 24, 2010 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

 

That is exactly what I mean...the Saxon Homeschool program is designed to be used by a parent with the student and then a student alone. The videos are optional. My point was that when you have a text that is meant to be taught by a teacher and you have a bad teacher you will have difficulty learning. Hence the pp and my experience with bad math teachers. Saxon works well either way but the homeschool texts do not, in my experience, assume a parent is a qualified math teacher.

Thank you for clarifying. It sounded like you were saying that a "qualified" instructor was required. If the student has access to the teaching materials I think they could have a bad instructor and still succeed but that is not likely if the student is in a school.

[lauracolumbus]

Ok, this might be considered a less than intelligent question, but how much does it matter if the student doesn't understand the 'whys?' My ds tested in the 12th grade range of the Woodcock Johnston III on the procedural math portion of the test (I forget its exact name) after completing 7/6 in 6th grade. DD tested in the 10th grade after completing 6/5 in 4th grade. Honestly, I don't think they understand the whys. Nor did I. I received a 26 or 27 on my math ACT scores. I don't think either of these 2 dc will go on to get a degree in math/engineering/physics.

 

So, even if Saxon did not teach the whys, how much am I harming my dc? And how do I fix it, esp. since I don't understand it myself (sorry but Liping Ma's book did not help).

 

Thanks.

[Mandy in TN]

So, even if Saxon did not teach the whys, how much am I harming my dc? And how do I fix it, esp. since I don't understand it myself (sorry but Liping Ma's book did not help).

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

Don't worry. Saxon does teach concepts. If your child is confused or doesn't remember how/why to do something, review the lesson where the concept was first taught. Another great thing about Saxon is that the lesson where the concept was taught is in parentheses next to the problem number.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[regentrude]

how much does it matter if the student doesn't understand the 'whys?' ... I don't think either of these 2 dc will go on to get a degree in math/engineering/physics..

 

You gave yourself the answer. It probably won't matter for most people - if they do not decide that they want to go into a field where they need to use math creatively, develop mathematical models, find solutions to complicated problems, or do mathematical research. For people who go into physics or engineering, however, not understanding the why's behind their procedure will be a serious obstacle to their pursuit of higher level math and science.

I would have a problem with predicting at an early age what kind of career path my children are going to follow and I would not want to limit their opportunities by deciding that they won't need xyz because they are unlikely to follow a career that uses xyz. (OK, at their age we can already rule out professional musician, but that's it)

Another aspect is that, once a student has understood the reasons behind a mathematical procedure, he will be much more likely to remember long term. If you truly understand something, you don't for get it. So you don't have to memorize a procedure, but can always re-derive it once you need it- which is very useful when you encounter a concept you have not thought about for several years.

[forty-two]

Ok, this might be considered a less than intelligent question, but how much does it matter if the student doesn't understand the 'whys?' My ds tested in the 12th grade range of the Woodcock Johnston III on the procedural math portion of the test (I forget its exact name) after completing 7/6 in 6th grade. DD tested in the 10th grade after completing 6/5 in 4th grade. Honestly, I don't think they understand the whys. Nor did I. I received a 26 or 27 on my math ACT scores. I don't think either of these 2 dc will go on to get a degree in math/engineering/physics.

 

So, even if Saxon did not teach the whys, how much am I harming my dc? And how do I fix it, esp. since I don't understand it myself (sorry but Liping Ma's book did not help).

 

Thanks.

There are differing levels of "understanding the whys". One is having a sense of how the various math procedures and techniques work, and when/why to use them. This is pretty necessary imo - if they don't have this, math is just a collection of rote procedures, and they can't apply to anything remotely novel, including real-life situations. Not good.

 

For example, I fell off the math understanding train at integrals in Calc I. But I soldiered on through 5 more math classes on my rote knowledge, not understanding, but managing to get A/Bs anyway :glare:. But when I needed to *apply* that knowledge in my EE classes, I was totally sunk. Just couldn't do the necessary math - I was unable to do anything novel, and I didn't have the time to rote memorize all the common variations.

 

But Saxon certainly succeeds here with some kids (and fails miserably with others). Try asking your kids about how they solved a problem, particularly a word problem - if they can give an answer other than "dunno" or "cause the book says so" :tongue_smilie:, chances are they've got this level of understanding ;). You can also give them word problems from other books or set some real-life problems, to see if they can apply what they've learned. If they can do this, if they can competently apply what they've learned to novel problems, they are probably understanding what they are doing well enough to make it in life.

 

The other level of whys is concerned with the *mathematical* reasons why math procedures work, with learning how to work in an axiom system and prove things - basically, with doing *real* math, not just applied math. I did not learn this either, though I am now trying to - mostly you don't in this country until you get to upper level college math courses. And you can clearly get through life quite well without it ;).

 

But it matters to me because,

a) it's how the ancients taught math,

b) it's teaching the *real* whys, which is important for its own sake to me,

c) it trains the brain,

d) it's math for the sake and beauty of math, not just for utilitarian reasons.

 

Mostly, it matters to me because it is real, and true, and beautiful - and that is both important to me for its own sake, and also that is the core of classical ed to me - teaching the good, the true, the beautiful. No one *needs* this sort of math, just as no one *needs* to study great literature. But imo it is important in forming a whole human being, one who can think well about important things.

 

But most people don't find it to be worth the effort - I just happen to :).

 

ETA: Living Math has a nice list of books, most of which are geared for the first sort of understanding, but the Sawyer books, at least, I think touch on the power and beauty of math in the second sense, as well.

Edited November 24, 2010 by forty-two

[silliness7]

I used saxon math myself in school from saxon 76-advanced math and got straight As. When I went to college and took the math placement exam, I was placed in REMEDIAL math. I then went on through Calculus 2 and had to work harder than most people to pass because I only knew how to get the right answer but never understood the why of it. I actually have a very mathematically inclined brain.

 

For a very long time I felt that saxon was the issue that my math potential was pretty much ruined. But after reading a lot on these boards, I think that it was probably more my math TEACHER who failed to teach me properly--he would have made every self education proponent proud--"Here is your assignment kids, figure it out yourself. I have to go visit a man about a horse (code for goto the bathroom)" pretty much every class time. He also had us only do the even problems a lot of the time because I think it was the odd problems that the answer was in the back of the text so we could cheat if we wanted to.

 

So was my saxon experience a true indicator of how well saxon worked or is it a better indication of a horrible math teacher? (He was my teacher for 5 years--small private school).

 

I have decided to give it a shot with my own kids and plan to use it as written.

 

Since you were not required to do Saxon as it was designed to be done there isn't a way to know what the problem was. However, if you could still score A's on the test I would think there was a flaw in Saxon's evaluation method. But maybe your teacher graded on a curve and maybe he included more in the final grade than just the test scores.

[lauracolumbus]

Thanks Mandy, Regentrude and Forty-Two for the replies. I will definitely check out your link and the Sawyer books Forty-Two.

 

I think this math weakness manifests itself the most in word problems. I have the Challenging Math books and have a difficult time using them w/my kids b/c if I had to answer a multiple choice test I could probably get the answer right, but in trying to show my kids how to do it (even w/the answers) I often get stumped. Sometimes I feel like my only solution is to hire a tutor b/c I'm struggling to keep up w/everything now. I can't imagine how much time it would take me to get math literate. I envy you Forty Two for starting on your journey so early.

 

Laura

[momto2Cs]

I'll keep this short. We do like Saxon. We have used it from the beginning, albeit with some forays into other math programs (including Math Mammoth), and for us, it is a solid program that works well. The variation of problems within the lessons keeps them interested. The concepts are well covered. It is our primary math right now, with some Math Mammoth Blue series thrown in for extra practice here and there. I bet we'll probably continue with Saxon all the way through, especially since they have dvd's to help in the higher grades.

 

Altogether, it is a program that works for certain children. Mine just happen to fit that mold!