Knocking my head against the wall with math...

[Mama2Three]

DS has done very well with math for the last 2 years. We started with RS, worked through whole/part circles (about 1/4 through level b), then switched to Singapore. We've been working on Singapore year-round with occasional small breaks. We hit some hurdles along the way, but I would slow down and work through them with him until he was comfortable to move on. Right now, DS is in 3rd grade and started 3a in September. Now the problem is that he is forgetting something that I thought he had down cold -- subtraction with borrowing. The only new thing that has been introduced is that problems work up to the 1000s.

 

DS will look at a problem like 2345-1569, and go to the 2 in the thousands to borrow. Or he will borrow from the tens but forget to change the 4 to a 3. At first I thought he was just being sloppy, but now I think that he might have forgotten the order of the steps.

 

How could he be solid a couple months ago, but have lost it since then? Since we school year-round, he's had opportunities to use this math. More importantly, what should I do now? I'm pulling out the base 10 blocks to use manipulatives to explain the process all over again, and we're concentrating on working in the hundreds until he is mostly mistake-free. I'm trying to be light about it, but it's been frustrating. Should I park here for a little while until I think that he has it again, or would it be ok to help him work through the subtraction problems in the workbook and then move on to the word problems (a few pages worth) and multiplication/division (many pages)?

 

Thoughts?

 

:bigear:

[kalanamak]

I find that my son loses these skills through two mechanisms: no refresher and poor motivation.

 

I do a refresher problem OR flashcards as a warm up each day. If kiddo fumbles all over the refresher, we do more. 90% of the time, for us, it is attitude. If he knows there will be 9 more problems coming if he doesn't sit up and pay attention to basics on the refresher problem, he is MUCH more likely to do well. :D

 

My son also dislikes manipulatives, because they are time-consuming. If he makes two basic errors, I drag out of the manipulatives, and that gets his attention even faster.

 

HTH

[siloam]

DS has done very well with math for the last 2 years. We started with RS, worked through whole/part circles (about 1/4 through level b), then switched to Singapore. We've been working on Singapore year-round with occasional small breaks. We hit some hurdles along the way, but I would slow down and work through them with him until he was comfortable to move on. Right now, DS is in 3rd grade and started 3a in September. Now the problem is that he is forgetting something that I thought he had down cold -- subtraction with borrowing. The only new thing that has been introduced is that problems work up to the 1000s.

 

DS will look at a problem like 2345-1569, and go to the 2 in the thousands to borrow. Or he will borrow from the tens but forget to change the 4 to a 3. At first I thought he was just being sloppy, but now I think that he might have forgotten the order of the steps.

 

How could he be solid a couple months ago, but have lost it since then? Since we school year-round, he's had opportunities to use this math. More importantly, what should I do now? I'm pulling out the base 10 blocks to use manipulatives to explain the process all over again, and we're concentrating on working in the hundreds until he is mostly mistake-free. I'm trying to be light about it, but it's been frustrating. Should I park here for a little while until I think that he has it again, or would it be ok to help him work through the subtraction problems in the workbook and then move on to the word problems (a few pages worth) and multiplication/division (many pages)?

 

Thoughts?

 

:bigear:

 

My guesses:

 

1. He didn't understand why he was doing it in the first place and only memorized the steps, thus when he forgot the steps he couldn't use reasoning to figure out what needed to be done.

 

2. He moved to quickly through the material for his maturity level and just didn't have the time to absorb it.

 

3. He has some sort of learning disability in which he will always randomly forget how things are done.

 

The one I would be most concerned about is number 1. If you still have an abacus I would go over borrowing and trading, to make sure he has a solid foundation on why he is doing this.

 

I have experience with number 2 because I was worried about my oldest being behind grade level and had her doing 5 pages in Singapore for a while. Big mistake. It was too much for her to be able to really absorb the concepts. She did well with them at the time but every time since that they have come up she does them wrong, then I have to re-teach them to her. In the end I had to back her down to 3 pages a day to both get her to put her best effort into the work and to give her the time she needs to really absorb what is going on.

 

But she is also dyscalculic, and will randomly write that all 3x7 problems equal 28 on a worksheet. The best way to fight against randomly forgetting it to have a couple math dictionaries around that they can pull out and look up concepts for themselves. Usborne has one that is nice, and I like Math Dictionary for Kids by Fitzgerald. The Usborne is more colorful, but the child has to use the index to look up topics. The second one is broken up by fields of math (basic, geometry, mid level concepts-fractions, ratio, percent) and then is alphabetical within each type of math covered, so it is much easier to grab and find what you want quickly.

 

 

Heather

[Beth in SW WA]

Should I park here for a little while until I think that he has it again, or would it be ok to help him work through the subtraction problems in the workbook and then move on to the word problems (a few pages worth) and multiplication/division (many pages)?

 

Thoughts?

 

:bigear:

 

MM blue Place Value levels 2 and/or 3 would be my first suggestion. Those little worksheets pack a bundle of goodness. Place value is so much more than borrowing/carrying.

 

MM is wonderful. Trust me. And inexpensive.:001_smile:

 

We are doing Singapore with MM, so I speak from experience. Dd7 has learned so much from MM. So glad moms turned me on to MM last summer. Dd 6 will go through them also.

[Ray]

I used a magnetic dry erase board with the manipulative below to mimic the text book lesson. The place valued disks may be available with magnets, but it was not too much trouble to attach the magnetic dots.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Place+Value+Disks+-+140+Disks+%2835+for+each+of+4+values%29/045432/1289068222-1736766

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Peel-and-Stick+Magnetic+3-4%94+Dots+%28Set+of+100%29/034508/1289068222-1736766

[Corraleno]

MM blue Place Value levels 2 and/or 3 would be my first suggestion. Those little worksheets pack a bundle of goodness. Place value is so much more than borrowing/carrying.

:iagree:

Cheap, easy to use, and provides a really strong foundation in place value concepts.

Jackie

[ondreeuh]

I think this is the difficulty with mastery programs. I just don't believe you can master something forever with only a bit of time invested in it, no matter how well you understand it at that time. If you don't use it, you lose it. I am a huge believer in regular review - we do it daily. I use CLE but if you really like Singapore then I would work in review somehow, maybe get the extra practice book and have your ds do a problem of each type each day.

[blakereese]

Do you recommend using the MM workbook in addition to any other curriculum being used? And is this just the level 3 blue book or is there something with Place Value in the title?

 

 

 

MM blue Place Value levels 2 and/or 3 would be my first suggestion. Those little worksheets pack a bundle of goodness. Place value is so much more than borrowing/carrying.

 

MM is wonderful. Trust me. And inexpensive.:001_smile:

 

We are doing Singapore with MM, so I speak from experience. Dd7 has learned so much from MM. So glad moms turned me on to MM last summer. Dd 6 will go through them also.

[Beth in SW WA]

Do you recommend using the MM workbook in addition to any other curriculum being used? And is this just the level 3 blue book or is there something with Place Value in the title?

 

I purchased MM blue PV 1, 2 & 3 (along with addition, subtraction, mult & div). Here is the link for 2. You simply pay, save/download the files and print (in either b/w or color). You can use them for multiple children and print more as needed.

 

I plan to purchase the entire grade 3 program next year.

[Beth in SW WA]

I used a magnetic dry erase board with the manipulative below to mimic the text book lesson. The place valued disks may be available with magnets, but it was not too much trouble to attach the magnetic dots.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Place+Value+Disks+-+140+Disks+%2835+for+each+of+4+values%29/045432/1289068222-1736766

 

 

I am buying these! Brilliant! Thanks, Ray. :)

Edited November 7, 2010 by Beth in SW WA
typo

[Mama2Three]

My guesses:

 

1. He didn't understand why he was doing it in the first place and only memorized the steps, thus when he forgot the steps he couldn't use reasoning to figure out what needed to be done.

 

2. He moved to quickly through the material for his maturity level and just didn't have the time to absorb it.

 

3. He has some sort of learning disability in which he will always randomly forget how things are done.

 

The one I would be most concerned about is number 1. If you still have an abacus I would go over borrowing and trading, to make sure he has a solid foundation on why he is doing this.

 

I have experience with number 2 because I was worried about my oldest being behind grade level and had her doing 5 pages in Singapore for a while. Big mistake. It was too much for her to be able to really absorb the concepts. She did well with them at the time but every time since that they have come up she does them wrong, then I have to re-teach them to her. In the end I had to back her down to 3 pages a day to both get her to put her best effort into the work and to give her the time she needs to really absorb what is going on.

 

But she is also dyscalculic, and will randomly write that all 3x7 problems equal 28 on a worksheet. The best way to fight against randomly forgetting it to have a couple math dictionaries around that they can pull out and look up concepts for themselves. Usborne has one that is nice, and I like Math Dictionary for Kids by Fitzgerald. The Usborne is more colorful, but the child has to use the index to look up topics. The second one is broken up by fields of math (basic, geometry, mid level concepts-fractions, ratio, percent) and then is alphabetical within each type of math covered, so it is much easier to grab and find what you want quickly.

 

 

Heather

 

Thanks everyone for your input! I suspect that Heather's #2 is largely to blame, as well as insufficient review. He definitely got it at the time. Or at least he appeared to because we used manipulatives, he was able to do the steps in order and tell me why he was "trading in" 1 ten for 10 ones, and he worked through many, many problems (I made extras for him). Then spring/summer came -- and renovating/selling our house and buying a new one -- and although he kept up with completing the Singapore 2b workbook, it was more independent work. I should have being monitoring him more closely and keeping up with extra review problems. Lesson learned (for mommy).

 

This weekend has been good, and DS has been doing better, although he's not all the way there yet. Problems in the 10s and 100s are fine, but he starts to get mixed up with the 1000s. We've pulled out a big chalk board and are doing problems together on there, and if he's making more than a couple mistakes I take out the manipulatives.

 

I tried MM but the spacing was so small for my DS who has some fine motor issues, that it didn't work for us. Too bad because I really loved the content, I think that it would be a very good compliment to Singapore. I think that adding in CLE would be too much, especially since we are "before schoolers," and I still need time for cursive and writing (and lots of running around).

 

I also added the Math Dictionary for Kids to my cart at Amazon. After next payday. ;)

 

Thanks again!

[Mama2Three]

OK, rethinking MM. I just went to their website -- I forgot how cheap they were! All the $10+ things I try add up over time, but for $2, I think it's worth another go. :)

[kalanamak]

T

 

I tried MM but the spacing was so small for my DS who has some fine motor issues, that it didn't work for us. Too bad because I really loved the content, I think that it would be a very good compliment to Singapore. I /QUOTE]

 

When I hit something like this, I do it on whiteboard or on the large grid paper (it has small grid on the flipside). I got it in the school section at Staples.

 

If I sit for a couple minutes, I can copy the problems onto bigger paper in just about 3 mintues.