Anyone else see the FLDS mothers on Larry King Live last night?

[Charon]

It's a sad thing all the way around. The complete "Stepfordness" of the women is just amazing to me. The way they go on about "what's best for the children, the children, the children..." simply makes me sick. How many of the wives are children? Who's looking out for them? How many of those frontier tablecloth-wearing, bouffant-sculpting "wives" in that courtroom and begging on national television are (or were) mothers at 12, 13, 14?

 

Just sick.

:sad:

 

 

No, they weren't stepford wives. An army rolled in literally with jack booted thugs and even a tank and took their kids and EVERYONE ELSE's. What would you do? I would be begging for my babies back. I would be very careful about what I might say to piss anyone off or that could be twisted six ways from Sunday by a world class propagandaist like a professional journalist. Do you really think any one of these women is any match for Larry King?? Or, even just a local television celebrity journalist?

 

They aren't stepford wives -- they are POWs in current captivity. They are trying really hard not to piss anyone off and are begging to just go home. You can see their facade crack a little as they talk normally for a split second in the video and tell where their sentiments lie as well as exactly why they are so guarded in what they say. Yeah, it's pretty scary, alright, but not for the reasons you guys are saying.

[Claire]

Actually, I have never been in a group of homeschoolers where there wasn't diversity -- not just of clothing or hair, but facial expression, voice intonation, body language, etc. There are so many different types of homeschoolers too. I have met radical unschoolers, WTMers, and most types in-between. If you got a group of us in chairs on national tv, I don't think we would ever look alike, sound alike, or say the same things in the same ways.

[Claire]

If we are squeamish about this close connection to companies run by members of the FDLS then why haven't we raided these compounds for years and enforced the law of one man, one wife?

 

Actually, the polygamous relationships are probably not illegal. If a man never marries legally, he can cohabit with multiple women. There is no law against this. That's what most of the men appear to have done.

[mom31257]

I haven't read all of this post, but I do feel for the women. I believe they are victims as much as the children. This case has broken my heart. I see the women not showing the emotions that I would, and I think they are totally mind-controlled. I can't imagine how these children feel. When they told of a boy with downs syndrome who needs constant care, and the mother not being allowed to stay with him, I cried. I have a special needs nephew, and having my sister and brother-in-law taken away would devastate him in ways I can't imagine.

 

I feel like their beliefs are totally wrong and would never want abuse to be allowed, but it has alarmed me that the government has the power to do this. I read that there are all ready threats in parts of Canada to take children from homeschool parents who won't teach the public school curriculum. When will what I teach (i.e. conservative values on homosexuality, creation science, etc.) our children be labeled "hate speech" or "wrong" and I won't be able to do it anymore?

 

I feel that they need to separate the men from the rest (jail if they are found guilty of a crime, court orders to stay away, if not), return the children to the mothers, and assign social workers to oversee that they all (men, women, and children) receiving counseling.

 

That's probably different than most, but I just want the easiest transition possible for these children. My prayer is that God will protect their hearts and their spirits won't be wounded. I also pray that they won't receive any further abuse in foster care, because that could be even more damaging to them.

 

Amy

11yo dd

4yo ds

[unsinkable]

No, they weren't stepford wives. An army rolled in literally with jack booted thugs and even a tank and took their kids and EVERYONE ELSE's. What would you do? I would be begging for my babies back. I would be very careful about what I might say to piss anyone off or that could be twisted six ways from Sunday by a world class propagandaist like a professional journalist. Do you really think any one of these women is any match for Larry King?? Or, even just a local television celebrity journalist?

 

They aren't stepford wives -- they are POWs in current captivity. They are trying really hard not to piss anyone off and are begging to just go home. You can see their facade crack a little as they talk normally for a split second in the video and tell where their sentiments lie as well as exactly why they are so guarded in what they say. Yeah, it's pretty scary, alright, but not for the reasons you guys are saying.

 

 

POW -- still means prisoner of war, right?

 

Are the women being held by law enforcement?

[Fourmother]

:rant:

Why shouldn't the government have the power to remove children from a community in which they will be systematically abused and/or neglected? Should parent's rights be extended to allow any and all kinds of abuse? Contrary to those who are appalled by the government raid, I think too much tolerance was shown. The FLDS have been allowed to act with impunity for far too long, in my opinion. I say it's about time they were stopped.

 

Our society has an interest in the welfare of all its citizens, especially those who cannot protect themselves. I don't believe the government's action in this case portends a threat to the liberty of homeschoolers in general. There's a big difference between institutionalized s*xual abuse and teaching conservative values. I think this is a case where the government did its job. The problem now is that the poor, innocent children must face a foster care system that is just as distorted in some ways as the homes they left in the first place. These kids are literally between Scylla and Charybdis.

 

The FLDS has chosen to live in societies like the US and Canada which strongly object to their behavior. Unfortunately, there are many other places in the world where polygamy, forced child marriage and even s*xual abuse are openly accepted. If they were interested in avoiding conflict, they could have taken their Pentagon money and gone elsewhere. Also, I understand that some of the women are receiving welfare benefits, so obviously they don't disagree with all government intervention. They had to know that a day of reckoning was coming.

 

And one last rant... Saying that the women are powerless victims is like accepting the Nuremberg Defense. Following orders excuses neither soldiers nor mothers from their ethical obligations. They still share some responsibility for the abuse.

 

Whew! It felt good to let that out. BTW, thanks for all the positive feedback on my blog!

[Mrs Mungo]

No, they weren't stepford wives. An army rolled in literally with jack booted thugs and even a tank and took their kids and EVERYONE ELSE's. What would you do? I would be begging for my babies back. I would be very careful about what I might say to piss anyone off or that could be twisted six ways from Sunday by a world class propagandaist like a professional journalist. Do you really think any one of these women is any match for Larry King?? Or, even just a local television celebrity journalist?

 

They aren't stepford wives -- they are POWs in current captivity. They are trying really hard not to piss anyone off and are begging to just go home. You can see their facade crack a little as they talk normally for a split second in the video and tell where their sentiments lie as well as exactly why they are so guarded in what they say. Yeah, it's pretty scary, alright, but not for the reasons you guys are saying.

 

Sorry, I gotta agree with Fourmother on this one.

 

Here's what cinches it for me:

But about 20 women or more gave birth when they were minors, some as young as 13, authorities say.

 

These men were having sex with TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRLS! If the community is *allowing* it then, yes, the children need *someone* to protect them and if their mothers aren't doing it then the government will.

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced it's an underaged sex ring dressed up in religious clothing and it makes me sick.

[Danestress]

I'm sure there are some devoted mothers who are heart broken, and whose children are too. It's very sad.

 

However, these mothers were part of a community, if the allegations are true, where girls were openly married off to old men when they were as young as 13. These mothers apparently sat back and watched that happen. In fact, it probably happened to some of them. Which is tragic. It's a legacy of sorts.

 

But honestly, I can't help but feel that these women were cowards and that they are suffering for the sins of the community - sins they ignored and of which they are now suffering the consequences. The allegation is that they knew girls were being "married" to old men who already had multiple wives. I don't care what your religious beliefs are, if you are sitting back ignoring the rape of 13 year olds in your community, you are part of the problem.

 

I think it's entirely possible that these women are victims, loving mothers, *and* cowardly participants in pattern of rape and abuse children. And in a world in which women won't protect girls from the selfishness of men, someone from the outside is going to have to intervene to protect those girls. It's a tragedy that any actor as imperfect as the state came in to try to "resolve" the problem by removing so many children from the only families they know. But it's an even bigger tragedy that the mothers, fathers, grandparents, aunts, uncles and neighbors of these children wouldn't protect them and make that state action unnecessary.

[my2kidsmom]

It's a sad thing all the way around. The complete "Stepfordness" of the women is just amazing to me. The way they go on about "what's best for the children, the children, the children..." simply makes me sick. How many of the wives are children? Who's looking out for them? How many of those frontier tablecloth-wearing, bouffant-sculpting "wives" in that courtroom and begging on national television are (or were) mothers at 12, 13, 14?

 

Just sick.

:sad:

 

I agree....Have you seen/heard Warren Jeff's....it is eerie how these women seem to really model him. Also, that tour of the house....how impersonal. The whole situation is just so sad.

[pixelroper]

I should preface this with the following....I question the ability of government to intervene on anyone's behalf judiciously, sorry but I do. I also have issues w/children being interviewed by strangers in general, while acknowledging parental presence a possible barrier to the truth, anyone w/children knows they can become easily confused and not be able to understand the gravity. If they had the evidence they needed why do they need to question the dc? That said...

 

Several things bother me...What are the laws the woman are referring to as having been changed or added in the last three months?? Why weren't they asked specifically about 12 yo giving birth?? They could answer "no" to minor marriage honestly, b/c it seems they get around the polygamy thing by not legally marrying... Their answer tells me nothing. They could also honestly deny knowledge if they didn't have it.

 

It bothers me that the woman claim to have not been served papers and/or have been tricked into leaving their children. ?????

 

Their mannerisms are odd but so is the situation. Not sure at all how that can be properly read, too many variables.

 

I'm trying very hard to not let my personal opinion of this way of life confuse the issues which are already.... confusing.

 

I'm assuming there is going to be a trial. At which point those accused will be found either guilty or innocent.

 

I'm now going to try to accumulate the facts and precise evidence that the officials have..if it is even available. I reserve the right to comment further.

 

These poor dc!

[Charon]

POW -- still means prisoner of war, right?

 

Are the women being held by law enforcement?

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. They rolled in, literally with a tank (!), took everyone into custody and removed them against their will to some place for interrogation by CPS. They've only just now returned them to the ranch that they spent several days turning upside down and still have their children in custody. Don't you think these women know that public opinion is against them -- that half or more people think that the FLDS is some crazy cult? And, now the whole basis for the raid in the first place, is almost certainly bogus. They found the 30 year old woman posing as the 16 yo girl.

 

How would you sound if an army of law enforcement personel descended upon your neighborhood and took everyone into custody and ransacked the place looking for something -- anything -- to charge someone -- anyone -- with? What if you knew that they were trying to stamp out your "evil" way of life and they didn't just take you but everyone -- all under completely false pretenses -- and they still had your kids? How would you talk? Would you go on Larry King and just talk normally -- just be your self?

 

Or, would you be incredibly gaurded in everything you said so that not even the slightest slip of the toungue can be taken and used to twist both public opinion and legal proceedings against you? That is what they sound like not a stepford wife. They sound like the POWs from the Hanoi Hilton that were paraded out by the North Vietnamese to prove that they were not committing war crimes while Jane Fonda and the rest of America go around condemning the POWs as being the war criminals.

[Johanna]

Here is my opinion, it comes down to one thing!!! Child abuse! It does not matter thier beliefs, dress, hair, daily activities, housing...etc!

It is cut and dry! If these children are being "married off" and made to have s*x with men before 18 (and conscenting!!) then they should absolutely be taken away(as they were) by law enforcement!! It is for their protection! It is sad that they have to be seperated by their mommas, but hopefully it will be a wake up call to the mommies! You dont treat children this way.....it is sick!

Sure, the mommies dont think that they are doing anything wrong, because they are brainwashed into thinking it is right! That is what is so sad about it. But, I am sorry....you cant do that to kids and get away with it!

[Charon]

:rant:

Why shouldn't the government have the power to remove children from a community in which they will be systematically abused and/or neglected? Should parent's rights be extended to allow any and all kinds of abuse? Contrary to those who are appalled by the government raid, I think too much tolerance was shown. The FLDS have been allowed to act with impunity for far too long, in my opinion. I say it's about time they were stopped.

 

Our society has an interest in the welfare of all its citizens, especially those who cannot protect themselves. I don't believe the government's action in this case portends a threat to the liberty of homeschoolers in general. There's a big difference between institutionalized s*xual abuse and teaching conservative values. I think this is a case where the government did its job. The problem now is that the poor, innocent children must face a foster care system that is just as distorted in some ways as the homes they left in the first place. These kids are literally between Scylla and Charybdis.

 

The FLDS has chosen to live in societies like the US and Canada which strongly object to their behavior. Unfortunately, there are many other places in the world where polygamy, forced child marriage and even s*xual abuse are openly accepted. If they were interested in avoiding conflict, they could have taken their Pentagon money and gone elsewhere. Also, I understand that some of the women are receiving welfare benefits, so obviously they don't disagree with all government intervention. They had to know that a day of reckoning was coming.

 

And one last rant... Saying that the women are powerless victims is like accepting the Nuremberg Defense. Following orders excuses neither soldiers nor mothers from their ethical obligations. They still share some responsibility for the abuse.

 

Whew! It felt good to let that out. BTW, thanks for all the positive feedback on my blog!

 

 

Forced marriage and sexual abuse are allegations. Have they been proven? Well, there are at least some people that have been arrested and others that have gone to jail. But, it is not even clear how legitimate that is, for that matter. And, even if that is all completely legitimate (because there isn't a campaign going on to systematically attack and destroy these people both publically and legally or anything), you are still talking about a handfull of cases. It certainly doesn't justify taking the whole community of people.

 

You can find far more real provable cases of abuse just going down to the local ghetto and rounding up hundreds of women and children.

[pixelroper]

And there has been a further arrest made.

[Charon]

Sorry, I gotta agree with Fourmother on this one.

 

Here's what cinches it for me:

 

 

These men were having sex with TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRLS! If the community is *allowing* it then, yes, the children need *someone* to protect them and if their mothers aren't doing it then the government will.

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced it's an underaged sex ring dressed up in religious clothing and it makes me sick.

 

 

No -- that is almost certainly an at least exaggerated slander against them by their critics. Right now there are registered sex offenders living near me. Does that mean that CPS has the right to round up everyone in my neighborhood? What if I said "I don't think that guy should be considered a sex offender and I don't mind if he hangs around my 16 yo daughter"? Do you really think that gives you the legal right to take my daughter from me, take me into custody and so on? And, again, these are just allegations. Prove them and take the guy who did it into custody -- you don't get to take everyone else, too, just because they don't think he should get into trouble for it. If you get to arrest people for that, then everyone that disagrees with the latest law being passed has to go to jail. And, these allegations are probably just more outrageous hoaxes just like the 16 yo.

 

Also, in terms of marrying and having sex with girls under the age of 18, in general, the law is what it is for a reason. Don't act like there isn't a long precedent for this in normal society. Obviously, 12 yos and so on are certainly over the top, but again, if you round up hundreds of people, it wouldn't be surprising that at least one of them really is a criminal. And, we still have yet to really see that. All we have seen is that most of the allegations turn out to just be speculation or hoaxes. And, they are obviously trying to "crack down" on them, so let's just say I am not surprised that they are making allegations like that.

[Charon]

I'm sure there are some devoted mothers who are heart broken, and whose children are too. It's very sad.

 

 

 

No, there aren't just some -- they are all that way. This is mostly all hype by a bunch of people that hate the polygamists. Hey, I don't like polygamy, either. But, there's a lot of stuff I don't like and a lot of stuff people don't like about me. I would hope that just based on allegations -- especially ones that can be easily investigated and found to be false -- CPS and an army would not take over my neighborhood.

 

What do you think CPS is going to say? That there was no abuse after all? After they roll in there with armored personel vehicles and crap like that and tear the place up? Or, do you think they are going to say "I think there is some cult-like practices of father and brothers raping their 9 yo sisters and daughters!.... Maybe there's some ritual human sacrifice to Warren Jeffs -- we don't know, we'll have to investigate further."

 

So far, the best they have come up with is some speculation about a handful of cases amoungst hundreds. Again, I am not impressed. You could have done better than that just by randomly picking some block in the ghetto and rounding up a few hundred families in that area. And, you wouldn't just be speclating 10 days later, you would already have hard evidence.

[Danestress]

And, you wouldn't just be speclating 10 days later, you would already have hard evidence.

 

My understanding is that they have a list of minors who are pregnant or have given birth. I think that counts as evidence of rape, and I hope that if it's true and if it violates the state's statutory rape laws, there will be ten prosecutions and that other adults who aided in that crime or protected the perpetrator will be brought to justice. News reports say that the list was producted in court.

[pixelroper]

One fact? Apparently prior to some date in 2005?? marriage w/consent of parents was legal for 14 and over.

[Charon]

My understanding is that they have a list of minors who are pregnant or have given birth. I think that counts as evidence of rape, and I hope that if it's true and if it violates the state's statutory rape laws, there will be ten prosecutions and that other adults who aided in that crime or protected the perpetrator will be brought to justice. News reports say that the list was producted in court.

 

 

It isn't rape if you married them. Yeah, it might be kind of disgusting that a 50 yo man marries a 16 yo girl, but it's not illegal -- not even now just after they changed the law in Texas. And, prior to that, you could have an 80 yo marry a 14 yo.

 

Look, no one is defending their life style, here. But, that doesn't give us the right to persecute them just because we don't like them. From what I can tell, CPS doesn't have a leg to stand on. Even their own psychologist says the kids should not be put in foster care.

[Claire]

It isn't rape if you married them. Yeah, it might be kind of disgusting that a 50 yo man marries a 16 yo girl, but it's not illegal -- not even now just after they changed the law in Texas. And, prior to that, you could have an 80 yo marry a 14 yo.

 

The underage girls could not have been legally married. The men typically legalized only their first marriage. Adulterous relationships cannot be prosecuted, so they did not legally marry their subsequent wives.

 

Statutory rape laws apply if the underage girls were not legally married.

[Charon]

The underage girls could not have been legally married. The men typically legalized only their first marriage. Adulterous relationships cannot be prosecuted, so they did not legally marry their subsequent wives.

 

Statutory rape laws apply if the underage girls were not legally married.

 

 

 

No, I think they marry one wife, get a divorce and then marry the next wife and so on. It's at best a technicality, anyway. I doubt anything will or can come of it. If it could, those guys would be arrested for it already.

[elizabeth]

Charon and others who think this was a case of religious persecution as a lawyer I would like to share one salient fact with you regarding evidence and minors...it cannot be discussed. The basis for the warrant in its particulars cannot be discussed . It may come to light that in fact the judge who signed the order permitting law enforcement and cps to raid the property did so on only one allegation from one complainant. I doubt it but it could be. We will not hear the particulars re:the corroborating evidence, the forensic evidence which will likely reveal incest etc as this is a highly closed community. It shows how pundits pretend to know the facts and it is nothing more than an educated guess until the particulars come out. In many cases until there are charges filed and a response from a defendant on those charges the public is in the dark when minors are involved to protect the child's privacy and to avoid tainting testimony or destroying evidence. It is sad beyond belief - all of it.As a woman and mother ,I think it is about power and sex and control-it always is.

[Parabola]

I personally don't have a problem with polygamy. If everyone involved is happy, of legal age, and made the choice without coerscion. I would even be friends with a polygamous family. Its not a problem for me.

 

I DO have a problem with government butting its head into people's lives. I'm pretty liberal: I want the government ALL OVER businesses and corporations, etc...but let people live the way they want to live so long as no one is being hurt.

 

And in this case, the government needed to be involved because there were people being hurt. Its child sexual abuse, however you want to frame it.

 

I do and I don't blame the moms. They were victims as much as the children, in fact they are former victims who have just aged a little.

 

The analogy to a pig farm is chilling.

 

Its hard for me to imagine casting off my male children, and marrying off my 14 year old daughter to a man as old as me. So I tend to think that if they *really* loved their children they would've gotten out. Realistically though, some of these above posts are exactly right. The moms have no power, no knowledge of that scary wicked outside world they've been brainwashed into believing exists, no one in that world to help them, the men of these communities keep them that way. I entirely blame the men.

 

The moms should be able to get their children back legally, but only if they meet certain criteria. If I were a judge (so help America :D ), then I would have them cut all ties with this church, this community and this way of life. I would have them monitored to make sure the tie cutting was permanent. I would make counseling for them and their children mandatory. I would provide people to help them fill out any government forms that may help them get assistance while they get their new lives established. I would offer some kind of scholarship or something to make education a reality for these women. I would get them involved in an LDS church that is among the mainstream. It would even be nice to set up some sort of voluntary outreach program so that other stable women nearby could befriend these women and help them acclimate to life out here.

 

If they couldn't meet those or any other criteria then they don't get their kids back. They can choose to go back to the community if they want, but they aren't taking the kids. This will end any debate of whether or not these women really love their kids. I think, given a real chance of getting out of that life with their kids and with a chance to actually truly be free then the women would take it. I like to think so anyway.

 

After these particular women and children in this particular situation have been dealt with and its been figured out what works the best way to get these women and children free and self-reliant....then I would go after all child abusing polygamist sects there are. Ruthlessly.

 

But, for real, my criteria are so.......not gonna happen. I know I'm not being realistic as to whats going to happen to these women. It will end up being a fight that tears people apart, that scars the kids, that polarizes both sides to the point that there is no real communication...you know, the usual.

 

Its really just too bad that we can pull these people's lives apart and then do very little to help them get new ones.

[Charon]

Charon and others who think this was a case of religious persecution as a lawyer I would like to share one salient fact with you regarding evidence and minors...it cannot be discussed. The basis for the warrant in its particulars cannot be discussed . It may come to light that in fact the judge who signed the order permitting law enforcement and cps to raid the property did so on only one allegation from one complainant. I doubt it but it could be. We will not hear the particulars re:the corroborating evidence, the forensic evidence which will likely reveal incest etc as this is a highly closed community. It shows how pundits pretend to know the facts and it is nothing more than an educated guess until the particulars come out. In many cases until there are charges filed and a response from a defendant on those charges the public is in the dark when minors are involved to protect the child's privacy and to avoid tainting testimony or destroying evidence. It is sad beyond belief - all of it.As a woman and mother ,I think it is about power and sex and control-it always is.

 

 

Are you talking about the federal warrant? Basically, CPS said that the raid was mostly based on the phone call. They said that -- not journalists speculating about it. It is now known to be a complete hoax. Other than the federal warrant, I don't think there are other sealed warrants hanging out there. My point is that there have been no arrests. If you had some pretty good evidence to suspect one of the men of statutory rape or even just regular rape or all these other abuse allegations, then I think you would have arrested him by now. But, they don't seem to be making any moves at all in that direction. They are just making allegations like that as part of their attempt to take custody of the 412 children. And, it is CPS making the allegations not law enforcement in a criminal proceeding against one of the men.

 

That's why I kind of doubt the DNA testing will come back with a whole lot. It's just a standard part of the process. And, they are tryign everything they can to drudge something up. It's a witch hunt. At this point, there is little reason to suspect that all these other allegations and stories about the evil polygamists isn't just more hype like everything else that has happened so far.

[Charon]

I personally don't have a problem with polygamy. If everyone involved is happy, of legal age, and made the choice without coerscion. I would even be friends with a polygamous family. Its not a problem for me.

 

I DO have a problem with government butting its head into people's lives. I'm pretty liberal: I want the government ALL OVER businesses and corporations, etc...but let people live the way they want to live so long as no one is being hurt.

 

And in this case, the government needed to be involved because there were people being hurt. Its child sexual abuse, however you want to frame it.

 

I do and I don't blame the moms. They were victims as much as the children, in fact they are former victims who have just aged a little.

 

The analogy to a pig farm is chilling.

 

Its hard for me to imagine casting off my male children, and marrying off my 14 year old daughter to a man as old as me. So I tend to think that if they *really* loved their children they would've gotten out. Realistically though, some of these above posts are exactly right. The moms have no power, no knowledge of that scary wicked outside world they've been brainwashed into believing exists, no one in that world to help them, the men of these communities keep them that way. I entirely blame the men.

 

 

 

Why do you say this? You are saying that there is child abuse going on and that the women are brainwashed and ignorant of the outside world and so on. I really don't know that to be true at all. That is what a lot of anti-FLDS people have said about the FLDS. Obviously, you can't just take that for granted as if it were a fact.

 

I'll agree that marrying off a 14 yo is pretty extreme. It is certainly skirting the absolute limits of the law. But, don't forget that the law did permit that. Yeah, I would never do that with my daughter, but just because the neighbors do when it is technically legal and so on and so forth doesn't justify raiding my whole neighborhood, alleging that I am part of a conspiracy to rape and abuse children (because I went along with something that was apparently legal at the time) and so on.

 

I think if they had a real case of child abuse, some people would have been arrested by now. Instead there is no criminal move and so it looks like CPS is just sensationalizing its case. (And, it may be because in Family Law there are different standards of evidence and so on.)

 

You just can't take it for granted that there is all this child abuse or that the wives don't know what the outside world is like. There are 412 kids. They have produced 10 people under 18 they think might have been abused or something. On that basis, you cannot take all 412 as if it is a culture of abusing children, especially when something like 1 in 4 foster children get raped (and, that is where you will put them all if you get custody).

[elizabeth]

I am speaking about the federal warrant. No arrests- just wait a bit longer. It takes a guardian ad litem for each child to be appointed then there is a great deal of back and forth between the state attorneys, the parents attorneys(we of course do not know who the parents are since they are hiding parentage-odd-) and cps. It is a logistical nightmare.Until there is dna and forensic psychological testing we know nothing of any real import. Search findlaw for better info regarding what is needed for a search warrant. It was not likely based on a phone call used as a pretext to raid the ranch which seems to be the upshot of your position. http://news.lp.findlaw.com/ap/other/1110//04-18-2008/20080418015006_22.html Of course there have been no arrests yet read the article in the link they are not exactly cooperating-they are obfuscating, pandering to the segment of the population who might have sympathy for their "cause" and doing nothing to protect those children. These are not merely abstract principles at stake but young innocent lives ,an ounce of caution is certainly warranted. I too hope the govt used an ounce of caution when the judge signed the warrant permitting the raid,truly I do.

[Claire]

I'll agree that marrying off a 14 yo is pretty extreme. It is certainly skirting the absolute limits of the law. But, don't forget that the law did permit that.

 

The law would permit this if they were legal marriages. This FAQ indicates it was common practice for the men to not legalize any of their marriages in order to avoid charges of bigamy or polygamy. Since the 14yos were not entering into legal marriages, the men are likely guilty of statutory rape. Mothers who gave consent could probably be charged as accomplices to statutory rape.

 

This particular community fits the criteria of a family. When CPS has good reason to believe a child in a family is at risk of abuse, it is obliged to remove all the children from that family. It is not required to determine exactly which children are being abused and which are not, in order to remove only the abused children. I think that is exactly what happened in this FLDS case, and that the government has acted within its legal mandates.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html the warrant is here not the evidence etc that comprised the warrant that is still sealed.

[Fourmother]

Forced marriage and sexual abuse are allegations. Have they been proven? Well, there are at least some people that have been arrested and others that have gone to jail. But, it is not even clear how legitimate that is, for that matter. And, even if that is all completely legitimate (because there isn't a campaign going on to systematically attack and destroy these people both publically and legally or anything), you are still talking about a handfull of cases. It certainly doesn't justify taking the whole community of people.

 

Yes, it's true that some of the allegations may be proven false, but they may also be proven true. As you said there have already been convictions against FLDS members. Elizabeth also pointed out that we are not privy to all the evidence before the judge. It will take a long time to sort it all out. Given the nature of the allegations and the past convictions, I can understand how CPS would want to ere on the side of caution for the children's sake. CPS is always between a rock and a hard place. If they act aggressively to remove children they could be erroneously breaking up families, but if they fail to act they could be leaving children prey to horrific abuse. It's always a judgment call, and somebody has to make it.

 

Many families have to deal with false allegations every day. Of course it isn't right, but it happens. If indeed a 30 year old woman's false allegation prompted the raid, then she should be prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law. It is possible, however, that her false alarm ends up uncovering abuse and saving some children.

 

You can find far more real provable cases of abuse just going down to the local ghetto and rounding up hundreds of women and children.

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you didn't mean this the way it sounds.

[Parabola]

Why do you say this? You are saying that there is child abuse going on and that the women are brainwashed and ignorant of the outside world and so on. I really don't know that to be true at all. That is what a lot of anti-FLDS people have said about the FLDS. Obviously, you can't just take that for granted as if it were a fact.

 

I guess I say this because I have seen interviews (not just currently with this situation, but in the past as well) with former FLDS women and young people who say that there is a disconnect between what the "real world" is like and what they are told it is like. They liken it to brainwashing.

 

 

I'll agree that marrying off a 14 yo is pretty extreme. It is certainly skirting the absolute limits of the law. But, don't forget that the law did permit that.

Just because its legal doesn't make it right. And vice versa.

[Charon]

I am speaking about the federal warrant. No arrests- just wait a bit longer. It takes a guardian ad litem for each child to be appointed then there is a great deal of back and forth between the state attorneys, the parents attorneys(we of course do not know who the parents are since they are hiding parentage-odd-) and cps. It is a logistical nightmare.Until there is dna and forensic psychological testing we know nothing of any real import. Search findlaw for better info regarding what is needed for a search warrant. It was not likely based on a phone call used as a pretext to raid the ranch which seems to be the upshot of your position. http://news.lp.findlaw.com/ap/other/1110//04-18-2008/20080418015006_22.html Of course there have been no arrests yet read the article in the link they are not exactly cooperating-they are obfuscating, pandering to the segment of the population who might have sympathy for their "cause" and doing nothing to protect those children. These are not merely abstract principles at stake but young innocent lives ,an ounce of caution is certainly warranted. I too hope the govt used an ounce of caution when the judge signed the warrant permitting the raid,truly I do.

 

 

No, you don't need any of that to arrest the parents. If my neighbor takes a video of me and my wife beating my kids, the police will come and arrest us both on the spot and put my kids in the custody of CPS. What you are talking about is how they eventually get custody permanently transfered to someone else. Now, if the hype is all true, then they might uncover evidence that does get them a real case of abuse, and at that point they will actually arrest someone, collect more evidence and start building a criminal case against them.

 

As for what promted the raid,

 

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/06/teens-calls-led-to-raid-search/

 

Palmer, in an interview Saturday with the Standard-Times, revealed for the first time the raid's genesis.

 

The girl called authorities at least twice, Palmer said - once March 29 and again the next day. Palmer declined to say which agency the girl telephoned, but said it was not by dialing 9-1-1, and that the girl said she was calling from inside the ranch.

 

"She didn't use the term 'forced into marriage,'" Palmer said. "She indicated that she was underage and had a (50)-year-old husband."

 

According to a search-and-arrest warrant filed Thursday in Tom Green County state district court and released by the court Friday afternoon, the girl named Barlow as her husband and said he had fathered her child.

[Charon]

The law would permit this if they were legal marriages. This FAQ indicates it was common practice for the men to not legalize any of their marriages in order to avoid charges of bigamy or polygamy. Since the 14yos were not entering into legal marriages, the men are likely guilty of statutory rape. Mothers who gave consent could probably be charged as accomplices to statutory rape.

 

This particular community fits the criteria of a family. When CPS has good reason to believe a child in a family is at risk of abuse, it is obliged to remove all the children from that family. It is not required to determine exactly which children are being abused and which are not, in order to remove only the abused children. I think that is exactly what happened in this FLDS case, and that the government has acted within its legal mandates.

 

 

No it doesn't. CPS is clearly reaching on that. I doubt it will get particularly challenged, though. CPS was certainly not obliged to do any of this. They wanted to and they may well take a serious fall in the long run for it (although I wouldn't count on that, either). In terms of their basis for removing the children, they really don't have any, and in the end, I am betting those kids are going back.

[Charon]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you didn't mean this the way it sounds.

 

What does it sounds like?

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html the second warrant after the calls were brought into question. It may eventually come out that what was discovered via the raid is not admissable due to a faulty warrant(based on a falsehood) or not in plain view nor listed on the warrant. Who knows?? There is no video of the alleged acts . Straw man

[Charon]

I guess I say this because I have seen interviews (not just currently with this situation, but in the past as well) with former FLDS women and young people who say that there is a disconnect between what the "real world" is like and what they are told it is like. They liken it to brainwashing.

 

 

 

Well, of course. Those are the critics of FLDS. They could be exaggerating or even just lying. It could be that it really felt like that for them (which is why they left), but that it isn't really like that for most of the other women. There's all kinds of ways something like that gets spun.

 

Just because its legal doesn't make it right. And vice versa.

 

 

But, we are talking about a government agency intervening, here. That is all about the legality of it. There is no case for abuse that warrants a CPS raid or the like if they are operating within the law.

[Charon]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html the second warrant after the calls were brought into question. It may eventually come out that what was discovered via the raid is not admissable due to a faulty warrant(based on a falsehood) or not in plain view nor listed on the warrant. Who knows?? There is no video of the alleged acts . Straw man

 

 

If there is enough evidence of any of these allegations, be it video or anything else, then they would be all over the alleged perpetrators with criminal proceedings. There have been no arrests -- not even after they turned the church upside down and got all the church documents and so on. I doubt there will be any arrests and I don't think they have any real evidence. The best they can do now is turn something up with the DNA or get one of the kids to start testifying.

 

If they had any good evidence at this point in time, somebody would be arrested and they would be preparing for a separate criminal proceeding.

[PiCO]

And there has been a further arrest made.

 

So... according to this article, it looks like Charon might be right- if the arrests were based on this woman's phone calls, the whole thing is a mistake. What a disaster. Good for Jessop for reporting the innacuracies as soon as she noticed. (Would have been better if someone had bothered to investigate the phone calls a little more before storming in and tearing a community apart...)

[unsinkable]

Don't be ridiculous. They rolled in, literally with a tank (!), took everyone into custody and removed them against their will to some place for interrogation by CPS. They've only just now returned them to the ranch that they spent several days turning upside down and still have their children in custody. Don't you think these women know that public opinion is against them -- that half or more people think that the FLDS is some crazy cult? And, now the whole basis for the raid in the first place, is almost certainly bogus. They found the 30 year old woman posing as the 16 yo girl.

 

How would you sound if an army of law enforcement personel descended upon your neighborhood and took everyone into custody and ransacked the place looking for something -- anything -- to charge someone -- anyone -- with? What if you knew that they were trying to stamp out your "evil" way of life and they didn't just take you but everyone -- all under completely false pretenses -- and they still had your kids? How would you talk? Would you go on Larry King and just talk normally -- just be your self?

 

Or, would you be incredibly gaurded in everything you said so that not even the slightest slip of the toungue can be taken and used to twist both public opinion and legal proceedings against you? That is what they sound like not a stepford wife. They sound like the POWs from the Hanoi Hilton that were paraded out by the North Vietnamese to prove that they were not committing war crimes while Jane Fonda and the rest of America go around condemning the POWs as being the war criminals.

 

 

You read way too much into 2 simple questions.

 

The first was to make sure I had the acronym P.O.W. correct.

 

The second was to ask if the women were being held by law enforcement.

 

I really wanted to know the answer to both questions. I don't think the questions were ridiculous.

 

Oh, and thanks for the history lesson. You threw that in here free of charge!

[Claire]

So... according to this article, it looks like Charon might be right- if the arrests were based on this woman's phone calls, the whole thing is a mistake. What a disaster.

 

Actually, I don't think it works that way. If the warrant was issued in good faith, then evidence gathered inside the compound could form the basis for removal of the children if it seemed they were at risk for abuse. It would be sort of like a policeman stopping a car based on a false stolen car report, then finding that the driver was intoxicated.

 

Of course, all of this will be argued in court.

 

My understanding is that CPS has a mandate to remove children if an investigation reveals serious risk of abuse. I don't think that mandate is dependent on whether an initial report of abuse is real or not.

 

Edited to add: I saw Flora Jessop on tv last night. Apparently this woman had talked to her on the phone for a total of about 40 hours. Towards the end, after police had been contacted, several of these phone calls were videotaped. Parts of one conversation were shown on tv. The woman was very convincing.

[Mrs Mungo]

They sound like the POWs from the Hanoi Hilton that were paraded out by the North Vietnamese to prove that they were not committing war crimes while Jane Fonda and the rest of America go around condemning the POWs as being the war criminals.

 

I'm sorry, as a military wife I find your repeated attacks against law enforcement and the military extremely insulting.

 

I find the comparison to POWs downright ridiculous. Have they starved and tortured these women for *years*? No. The comparison is not valid at ALL.

[Charon]

So... according to this article, it looks like Charon might be right- if the arrests were based on this woman's phone calls, the whole thing is a mistake. What a disaster. Good for Jessop for reporting the innacuracies as soon as she noticed. (Would have been better if someone had bothered to investigate the phone calls a little more before storming in and tearing a community apart...)

 

 

Well, there were two arrests of these people. It was because they had a warrant to search the temple and it is required that the men protect the temple. So, when the law enforcement officers came to search the temple the men of the FLDS surrounded it to provide nominal resistance. In that exchange two people got arrested essentially for obstructing justice. (And, that is a legitimate arrest regardless of how legit their being there in the first place was.)

 

There have been no arrests for sexually assaulting a minor or even bigamy, yet. You would think that after ransacking the temple, they would at least be able to get some kind of bigamy or something. And, you would not expect to see it come up in the custody hearing over the course of several weeks and then all of a sudden the guy get's arrested. You would see him just get arrested right now while the state also builds a criminal case against him and you would see it come up in the custody hearing evenutally, too. The raid happened on the 3rd. It is over two weeks later. In all of that, they don't have enough evidence to even arrest someone and charge them criminally?

[my2kidsmom]

I know that when a report is called in to the child abuse hotline, depending on the information reported, the case is either listed as reported with no further action, the child wefare department investigates, and/or the state police investigate.

 

This definately was not a mistake. Anyone can call the hotline on anyone for child abuse. Even in the caller lies, an investigation will take place (if the caller was compelling). In this case, once the investigation got underway, the phone call was not the issue anymore.