A fella of few words...impacting grade

[Miss Marple]

Ds#2 is very quiet. He is quite sociable, but doesn't need to be the life of the party. He is contented with life in general and doesn't feel the need to vocalize much :D

 

So he's enrolled in an online CC class that requires "discussion board" participation. He did more than the "minimum" required, but his posts were very basic and straightfoward. He received 8/25 points :glare:

 

I *know* what the professor is looking for although he is vague in his syllabus about the requirements. He wants a chatty discussion, but Ds just has never had it in him to be chatty! How do I help him become "chatty"? Also, would it be morally wrong for me to sit with him and help him write responses? I feel like he needs guidance and would like to assist him in the same way I would critique an essay...but would that be unfair? I feel badly because he is otherwise doing fantastic in the class (physics for non-majors). It's just that this area of discussion is going to doom his grade and make him feel horrible!

 

How would you all approach this? BTW, this is a senior who is dually enrolled.

[Kalypso]

I don't think there would be anything wrong with you sitting with him and giving him examples of what would be a more "chatty" answer. I think he would catch on quickly and I think it is easier to be chatty online than it is in person.:)

[regentrude]

Maybe it would help him to understand WHY he should talk more.

Seeing that it is a physics course, let me offer my perspective : talking about physics, discussing concepts, even coming up with wrong explanations, defending one's point of view to a classmate, convincing a classmate that my view of the concept is correct - these are extremely valuable tools for gaining in-depth understanding.

I employ those techniques in the classroom, and let me tell you, at the beginning it is like pulling teeth to get the students to talk. But talking about it gives an educational benefit that book study, listening to lectures and working problems do not have. Discussing wrong notions and thinking mistakes is one of the most valuable exercises.

So maybe it would help your son to understand that this is not about being chatty, about making small talk, about asking questions only when he did not understand - it is about playing with ideas, bouncing concepts, using the class members as sounding board and corrective.

 

If he still has trouble contributing, it might be that the professor is not very effective in moderating the discussion, does not lead the students in questions and discussion topics. If that is the case, your son could simply contact the professor, explain his difficulty (and willingness) in contributing to the discussion and ask for suggestions on how he could learn to contribute more. I have not seen a colleague who would have a problem with students asking how they can improve their performance (as opposed to asking for more points ;-) I wish more students took the initiative and asked for constructive suggestions.

Hope this helps.

[KJB]

Set a minimum word count requirement for him. Look at other posts from other students to guide this count. In addition to a word count, have him make sure he is contributing something meaningful. Set specifics guidelines for him like if he agrees/disagrees with a previous poster, he must give two reasons why.

 

I think with some rules in place he would probably be fine. It sounds like he just doesn't know what the expectation is so I would read other posts to get a feel for what the standard is and then write up a checklist for him to guide his posts.

 

And, no I wouldn't sit with him. It sounds like he could handle it with a little support.

[Susie-Knits]

I think it is especially hard for some guys to be chatty even though they know the material.

 

In my opinion, discussion and brainstorming with you about possible chatty answers would be of benefit to him. Give him a pre-chat chat session. And with the knowledge of how it will effect his grade... perhaps he will blossom in chattiness! haha

[Myra]

My general rule for my eldest son in any writing situation is write the amount you think is just right then go back and double it!

 

While it is just the opposite for my youngest!

 

Myra

[Murphy101]

Regentrude may be right. It really depends on the instructor.

 

I have told my son to view courses such as this as mini debate classes.

 

It is not enough to just say an opinion or ask a question - you must always back it up.

 

I think black theory might work better because it allows for x, y, and z.

So does that mean this would be true then? Because if so, I see repercussions for example a or example b.

 

It's a hard skill to learn and it takes a good facilitator to keep the group on track, but it can be a great positive experience.

[Miss Marple]

I have not seen a colleague who would have a problem with students asking how they can improve their performance (as opposed to asking for more points ;-) I wish more students took the initiative and asked for constructive suggestions.

 

We did discuss that yesterday. He will be e-mailing his professor asking to know how he can improve, what he can do to get full credit, examples of posts the professor thinks are excellent, etc. I told him the same thing: professors *want* their students to ask them how to improve.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that the professor is engaging in the discussion group under the guise of a student. There is one particular student who is truly excellent and makes encouraging comments to the other students. My ds uses the "minimum acceptable" as his benchmark. He is academically gifted, but lazy when it comes to writing. He does great on standardized tests because he doesn't have to "interact".

 

I'm also wondering if the professor graded everyone low in an effort to bump up the participation...

[Miss Marple]

Set a minimum word count requirement for him. Look at other posts from other students to guide this count. In addition to a word count, have him make sure he is contributing something meaningful. Set specifics guidelines for him like if he agrees/disagrees with a previous poster, he must give two reasons why.

 

I think with some rules in place he would probably be fine. It sounds like he just doesn't know what the expectation is so I would read other posts to get a feel for what the standard is and then write up a checklist for him to guide his posts.

 

And, no I wouldn't sit with him. It sounds like he could handle it with a little support.

 

Minimum word count - that's a great idea!

[Miss Marple]

I think it is especially hard for some guys to be chatty even though they know the material.

 

In my opinion, discussion and brainstorming with you about possible chatty answers would be of benefit to him. Give him a pre-chat chat session. And with the knowledge of how it will effect his grade... perhaps he will blossom in chattiness! haha

 

So maybe discuss the answer before he writes it? He could then write down points to bring out in the discussion.

 

I just don't want to feel like we're cheating...on the other hand, who knows what's happening with the other students.

[Miss Marple]

My general rule for my eldest son in any writing situation is write the amount you think is just right then go back and double it!

 

While it is just the opposite for my youngest!

 

Myra

 

Good idea! My oldest and youngest are never at a loss for words; the middle 2 are definitely not communicators!

[Miss Marple]

Regentrude may be right. It really depends on the instructor.

 

I have told my son to view courses such as this as mini debate classes.

 

It is not enough to just say an opinion or ask a question - you must always back it up.

 

I think black theory might work better because it allows for x, y, and z.

So does that mean this would be true then? Because if so, I see repercussions for example a or example b.

 

It's a hard skill to learn and it takes a good facilitator to keep the group on track, but it can be a great positive experience.

 

There really doesn't seem to be a facilitator on this discussion board. Maybe I should act as his individual facilitator :D

[Miss Marple]

I think it is easier to be chatty online than it is in person

 

I've been trying to get this point across to him. Sometimes I think his mind is just...empty...nothing to say rather than an inability to say it.

[regentrude]

There really doesn't seem to be a facilitator on this discussion board. Maybe I should act as his individual facilitator :D

 

So how then do they get started? Do they come up with questions themselves? Discuss the homework problems?

I imagine this very hard to do. I usually give my students "prompters" in the form of conceptual questions in order to help them get started. I can not imagine them just sprouting a physics discussion without any "seed".

[Miss Marple]

Well, there is a discussion question to start off with. The students are then on their own. I haven't seen any input by the professor during the discussion .

[Murphy101]

There really doesn't seem to be a facilitator on this discussion board. Maybe I should act as his individual facilitator :D

 

So how then do they get started? Do they come up with questions themselves? Discuss the homework problems?

I imagine this very hard to do. I usually give my students "prompters" in the form of conceptual questions in order to help them get started. I can not imagine them just sprouting a physics discussion without any "seed".

 

:iagree: Something is up then. If the professor is counting this for a grade, then quite frankly he needs to step up to the plate himself. I would be more than a bit disgruntled if a professor basicly said I had to be social where and as often as he likes outside of class. If the discussion board is part of the "class", I'd expect the professor to make an effort to attend and guide that part of the class.

 

Of course one can't say that to the professor.

 

RAther I'd say something along the lines of:

 

Prof X,

I am a rather quiet person, but I am interested in doing a well as possible in your excellent course. I don't seem to be meeting your standards for a quality grade in the forum discussions. What specificly are you looking for in forum participation that I was failed to meet your expectation for? ..

 

:D

[Susie-Knits]

I've been trying to get this point across to him. Sometimes I think his mind is just...empty...nothing to say rather than an inability to say it.

 

Guess this was exactly my point of the pre-chat chat - to have ideas or points he would like to make. Not so much that you give him points to make. I do this with my guys by asking questions that lead and rarely giving answers or my opinion. It seems to help sort out their thoughts.

 

Lots of good ideas on the thread -

[Julie in MN]

Also, would it be morally wrong for me to sit with him and help him write responses?

 

Personally, I think that would be an excellent thing to do for your son's education. You'd be modeling a skill to him that he is weak in. What better way for him to learn? He is still young and doesn't need to have all the skills in place just yet.

 

You know, I think many times teachers teach to the way that "they learn" and really don't understand that people learn in different ways. Another student might have a teacher who assigns a mountain of books to read, because that's the way that teacher learns best. Still others emphasize drawing -- I've even seen high school teachers give a grade on coloring. I've seen some teachers value the "group experience" and take one student's grade down because another student in the group didn't do his job.

 

Personally, I think it's great to include all different methods; however, I don't think these methods should penalize a student but instead help more students succeed. It's a pet peeve of mine. A person who knows the science, knows the science. Rarely is it true in the real world that you "have to" do something in a particular way, as long as the results are there. And this is not a speech and communications course. I think we all need to work on our weak and our strong areas, but likely we will need to find a place in the world that values our strong areas, or at the very least find ways to compensate *using* our strong areas to make up for any weaknesses we have.

 

I love that as a homeschooler you can work around these types of requirements. I helped my oldest, public-schooled son in several ways, including being an involved editor & navigating teachers in a few cases. My son also worked with several teachers himself, doing "extra credit" to make up for weak spots, etc. When he went on to college & then out into the working world, he did wonderfully all by himself, so he didn't rely on help forever -- he doesn't even live in the same state as me :)

 

Julie

[regentrude]

A person who knows the science, knows the science.

 

While I agree with most things you said about learning styles etc., I would like to comment on this and try to explain where the value of a discussion comes in - even if that is NOT the student's preferred learning style.

 

It is well known among professors that you have not fully understood a topic until you try to teach it to somebody else. This is true even if you have a PhD and years of research experience and think you have mastered the introductory material just fine - explaining it to somebody creates a much deeper understanding that no amount of problem solving and bookwork can achieve. It is an experience every instructor makes.

 

In this sense "A person who knows the science, knows the science" is not really true, because there are different levels of knowing.

This "peer teaching" (I hate the term, but that's what the educators use) tries to get students to a better understanding and this is really a universal thing, independent of an individual's learning style, because you have fully understand something only if you can explain it to somebody else. And no quiz or problem or exam can substitute for the actual questions of an actual confused and curious human being.

Does that make sense?

[Miss Marple]

however, I don't think these methods should penalize a student but instead help more students succeed.

 

I think this the crux of my issue. I wanted him to learn physics. He scored 23/25 points on the lab and 8/25 on the discussion. So out of 50 points he has a 62% which hardly reflects what he does know. The lab was rather involved and took a couple of hours to complete; it wasn't just a fill in the blank worksheet. Interestingly the labs and the discussion are both worth the same amount in the final grade award - that just seems a bit skewed in my mind.

 

I understand well the argument that a person doesn't really know something until they can teach it. And I agree with that. What bothers me about this method of assessing what someone knows is that one is penalized if the discussion isn't interesting or chatty. Ds had the basic points in his discussion but they were in a "just the facts, ma'am" presentation rather than an interesting, engaging discussion. So it appears to me that he is being graded on his *ability* to write or lecture rather than his knowledge or his ability to state his knowledge.

 

I'm almost convinced that we need to drop this class because of the emphasis on the ability to write in an engaging style. I presented the idea to my son and he wants to give it another try for the next unit. If he still doesn't do well (we will be utilizing all the ideas suggested as well as e-mailing the professor), he will probably drop. Perhaps the sciences are not good courses to do online.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input. It has helped me help my son as well as helped me formulate a plan of action for the future.

[Julie in MN]

you have fully understand something only if you can explain it to somebody else. And no quiz or problem or exam can substitute for the actual questions of an actual confused and curious human being.

Does that make sense?

 

Yes, I see what you're saying. However, I really don't think everyone is a good teacher (or off-the-cuff speaker), even if they know their stuff. I think teaching *does* help you learn, but I have known many genius-level people who can't explain their way out of a paper bag. Even my youngest son, who is very verbal/auditory and strong in math, can't explain why he gets something (or not). It's just sort of osmosis for him.

 

This especially seems strange for Physics, to me. I suppose if it's a 200+ level college course (non introductory), then maybe discussion starts to be part of upper level expectations. I think counting it equal to labs is excessive, personally, but I suppose as long as the requirements were clearly on the syllabus.

 

I think it struck a chord for me because of all the non-academics that my kids had to do in public school that felt like mickey mouse.

 

Julie

Edited August 25, 2010 by Julie in MN

[Sunshine State Sue]

I have a degree in math and computer science and am naturally straightforward and concise. My son takes after me in those areas. As we worked through our junior high writing program, I had to constantly ask him to elaborate with more details. My son's history teacher also requires verbosity (if that's a word) in all tests. Honestly, it's beneficial because he is learning to communicate more of his knowledge.

 

Last summer, I took a Statistics class at the CC for "fun". I haven't been in a classroom in 20+ years. I was surprised (although I had heard about this) at how much more writing was involved than when I was in college many moons ago. Because of my experience working with my son, I was able to understand that I needed to be verbose, not concise. Because of my experience with my son in history and writing, I was able to demonstrate my knowledge by "telling all that I know".

 

I would ask my son:

Can you elaborate on that?

What else do you know that's related?

Can you give more details?

 

I hesitate to post. With my son in 9th grade, I feel like I'm playing with the big kids. Who am I to give advice? Also, I realize that there could be a huge distinction between writing for tests/papers and a discussion board. But, there's my 2c.

 

Best wishes!

[Miss Marple]

I have a degree in math and computer science and am naturally straightforward and concise. My son takes after me in those areas. As we worked through our junior high writing program, I had to constantly ask him to elaborate with more details. My son's history teacher also requires verbosity (if that's a word) in all tests. Honestly, it's beneficial because he is learning to communicate more of his knowledge.

 

Last summer, I took a Statistics class at the CC for "fun". I haven't been in a classroom in 20+ years. I was surprised (although I had heard about this) at how much more writing was involved than when I was in college many moons ago. Because of my experience working with my son, I was able to understand that I needed to be verbose, not concise. Because of my experience with my son in history and writing, I was able to demonstrate my knowledge by "telling all that I know".

 

I would ask my son:

Can you elaborate on that?

What else do you know that's related?

Can you give more details?

 

I hesitate to post. With my son in 9th grade, I feel like I'm playing with the big kids. Who am I to give advice? Also, I realize that there could be a huge distinction between writing for tests/papers and a discussion board. But, there's my 2c.

 

Best wishes!

 

Sue, never hesitate to post! I appreciate *all* input. Ds and I have a date at the computer this afternoon after he gets back from his brick/mortar classes. I am also a "just the facts" person, but I've learned over time that in omitting the details I often confuse people or am unable to convince a person of my point. So I'm learning to add the extra verbage, although I generally prefer people to make their case in a "just the facts" manner :tongue_smilie:

 

I truly believe Ds needs to learn to communicate more effectively. I am just hesitant to have him learn it in the venue of a physics course, especially when the grade will not truly reflect his knowledge.

 

We're going to give it another try this week and see if he can pull the discussion grade up. If not, we'll just drop the class and he will pick up a science here at home. Ds is really enjoying the course and I'm particularly pleased that he isn't willing to just give up.

 

Thanks again for your perspective. I'll incorporate your questions today as we work together on the discussion. :001_smile:

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sue, never hesitate to post! I appreciate *all* input.

Thank you for the kind words, Cynthia. Please let us know what happens. :grouphug:

[Charles Wallace]

Ds#2 is very quiet. He is quite sociable, but doesn't need to be the life of the party. He is contented with life in general and doesn't feel the need to vocalize much :D

 

So he's enrolled in an online CC class that requires "discussion board" participation. He did more than the "minimum" required, but his posts were very basic and straightfoward. He received 8/25 points :glare:

 

I *know* what the professor is looking for although he is vague in his syllabus about the requirements. He wants a chatty discussion, but Ds just has never had it in him to be chatty!

 

I'm sorry -- some students don't have it in them to be chatty, and others don't have it in them to be test-y or write-y. Eventually, sooner or later, we all run into some measure of our skill that pushes us out of our comfort zone. (Sorry about the cliche!)

 

Being one of those teachers who grades for classroom discussion, I've run into this many times, but unfortunately, the only thing I can say is that your son needs to demonstrate his knowledge just like a non-writer needs to learn to write or a student not fond of tests needs to learn to take tests.

 

 

How do I help him become "chatty"? Also, would it be morally wrong for me to sit with him and help him write responses?

 

I would consider it to be a form of cheating. Yes, I would absolutely consider it to be morally wrong.

 

In terms of how you help him become chatty, if he's good at short-answer tests, for example, tell him to pretend that the chat IS a test -- and that, just as he would on a test, he needs to demonstrate the knowledge he has about the topic.

 

That means dropping key names, words, concepts, and terms into conversation -- that is, rather than saying (for example), "She does stuff that gets her in trouble," say rather, "Hester Prynne violates the Puritan community's theocratic rules by committing adultery and having an out-of-wedlock baby, Pearl."

 

HELPFUL TIP: CAPITAL LETTERS AND NUMBERS ARE HIS FRIENDS. The more capital letters he's using, the more specific he's being. Same with numbers, dates, figures, and data.

 

In a physics class, I'm thinking that his other major tool in the box needs to be the word "because."

 

Instead of...

A rusted iron bar (Bar A) has greater mass than a nonrusted iron bar of the same size (Bar B), though both bars may initially have had the same mass before Bar A rusted.

 

Try...

A rusted iron bar has greater mass than a nonrusted iron bar of the same size, though both bars may initially have had the same mass before bar A rusted because essentially, rusting is really oxidization, a process in which oxygen molecules attach to a metal. Therefore, the oxygen, having bonded to the metal, increases the overall mass of the bar.

 

Hint: Use transitional words and phrases. These help tremendously!

Edited August 26, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Murphy101]

Beautiful!

Perfect!

Constructive and useful!

 

Would that every prof would be so helpful!

:hurray:

 

I'm sorry -- some students don't have it in them to be chatty, and others don't have it in them to be test-y or write-y. Eventually, sooner or later, we all run into some measure of our skill that pushes us out of our comfort zone. (Sorry about the cliche!)

 

Being one of those teachers who grades for classroom discussion, I've run into this many times, but unfortunately, the only thing I can say is that your son needs to demonstrate his knowledge just like a non-writer needs to learn to write or a student not fond of tests needs to learn to take tests.

 

I would consider it to be a form of cheating. Yes, I would absolutely consider it to be morally wrong.

 

In terms of how you help him become chatty, if he's good at short-answer tests, for example, tell him to pretend that the chat IS a test -- and that, just as he would on a test, he needs to demonstrate the knowledge he has about the topic.

 

That means dropping key names, words, concepts, and terms into conversation -- that is, rather than saying (for example), "She does stuff that gets her in trouble," say rather, "Hester Prynne violates the Puritan community's theocratic rules by committing adultery and having an out-of-wedlock baby, Pearl."

 

HELPFUL TIP: CAPITAL LETTERS AND NUMBERS ARE HIS FRIENDS. The more capital letters he's using, the more specific he's being. Same with numbers, dates, figures, and data.

 

In a physics class, I'm thinking that his other major tool in the box needs to be the word "because."

 

Instead of...

A rusted iron bar (Bar A) has greater mass than a nonrusted iron bar of the same size (Bar B), though both bars may initially have had the same mass before Bar A rusted.

 

Try...

A rusted iron bar has greater mass than a nonrusted iron bar of the same size, though both bars may initially have had the same mass before bar A rusted because essentially, rusting is really oxidization, a process in which oxygen molecules attach to a metal. Therefore, the oxygen, having bonded to the metal, increases the overall mass of the bar.

 

Hint: Use transitional words and phrases. These help tremendously!

[oldskool]

I am in grad. school now and participating via a discussion board is a part of almost every class I take. It is not a format that I like, but one that I have had to get good at. I feel that this is a skill that will be needed as we head into a future full of new technology and ways of working. As your son heads off to college he will undoubtedly run across this again and now would be the perfect time for him to master it. I believe that science, especially in the current time, is a field that relies on collaboration. By showing an understanding of this, I am certain that the professor will respond favorably. It could be that the goal is not to be chatty, but to show the ability to have enough knowledge about a subject area to be able to defend, explain, accept/reject it, and relate to another persons understanding of something. And again since we do live in a digital world it will be very important to know how to communicate this through the use of technology.

 

Maybe a good way to start out would be for him to take the discussion question and explain it to you first. You could play ignorant so that he is forced to talk more and explain more. This may be better than starting out cold on the board. It has helped me to say something out loud before committing it to writing.

 

Lesley

[Miss Marple]

Thank you! This is very helpful. He has e-mailed his professor and he has written his first discussion on the next unit. We'll see how it goes. I told him that he probably needed to treat this as a mini-essay. I think that helped him be more verbose. He was thinking that this was "conversation" and as such he posted as he would have if it were a conversation.

[Miss Marple]

Maybe a good way to start out would be for him to take the discussion question and explain it to you first. You could play ignorant so that he is forced to talk more and explain more. This may be better than starting out cold on the board. It has helped me to say something out loud before committing it to writing.

 

That's exactly what we did yesterday for his new post. Since I'm not in the class, I really don't know what they are reading. So he wrote his response in Word, read it to me, and I was able to say things like, "Something important has been left out here because this doesn't flow and I don't know how you got from this point to that." He then went back in and filled in the details. In the end, I thought it was decent - we'll see how the professor responds.

 

My oldest son has participated in these discussion boards for several online courses he has taken. Always, the discussion expectations have been spelled out. This is a good exercise for ds, though, because the physics is easy for him, but the communication is difficult so he'll be stretched there.