S/o teaching, training, discipling young children

[Murmer]

In the new to homeschooling thread someone mentioned teaching, training the children to be respectful and disciplined. How do each of you do that?

 

In particular my dd is amazing but special. She is very very very active, has no impulse control and does not sit still. When she gets mad she just starts swinging. Time out doesn't work because she will not sit or stand where I ask here and escalates. Time in does not work because I usually end up holding her down so she doesn't hurt me. I know she is 2 but every other 2 year old I know do not behave like her and I am at my wits end for what to do to help her. I want everyone to see how amazing she is but right now all anyone sees is her being naughty (and she usually is not doing it on purpose just can't control herself). Oh mighty hive help me. Tia.

[jillian]

I am so struggling with this exact issue right now (except the "violent" behavior). I do NOT want to spank but I have such issues regarding how to discipline. We try to take things away (last night at church was HORRENDOUS and I tried taking away her bedtime story; ended up taking it away but it didn't even phase her).

 

DD is 2 1/2 and she doesn't quite "get it" either. Have you checked out Love and Logic (it talks about logical consequences)? I try to use this but it isn't quite working anymore especially when the logical consequences are irritating others or disrupting something like Mass (logical consequence would be to ignore her if she is just trying to get attention).

[Murmer]

We are doing love and logic and it means nothing to her. We can't transfer it out of the house because she just doesn't care. I really think a lot of things are out of her control but that doesn't excuse it. I don't know what to do to help her and other people don't want to be around her because she is a firecracker.

[kmacnchs]

Consequences need to be immediate for 2 yos (time outs or spankings) - even in church, take her out. If my 2yo throws a tantrum b/c she is frustrated w/a toy not working or her sister is taking from her, I look her in the eye, tell her that is unacceptable, etc. and then I help her learn how to deal w/that frustration ("momma, will you help me with this toy? It's not working?", etc.). If I tell her to do something and she throws a tantrum, she is spanked right away. She knows she is to obey right away and with a happy heart because this is how God wants us to obey. If you are not a Christian, I would suggest the Supernanny. I'm not a big fan but from what I've seen she is BIG on consistency and I think that is soo important!

 

HTH

 

if you want any further elaboration or book suggestions, let me know!

 

ETA: no one has impulse control naturally - that is learned. If we do not teach that to our children, not only will they not be a blessing to others as children but they will reap what we have chosen not to sew as adults (speaking as one of those children - I have had to learn as an adult to hold my tongue and not argue w/superiors b/c I was not taught that as a child...)

Edited June 6, 2010 by kmacnchs

[abbeyej]

First off, two is tough. They don't call it the "terrible twos" for nothin'. ;) Kids come with different challenges then (as at all stages), and some are tougher than others. But don't start to think that because you're overwhelmed at 2 that things are hopeless. You just keep working. Don't give up, don't give in, just keep at it (gently, lovingly, consistently)...

 

Have you ever watched Super Nanny? I know it seems ridiculous to be suggesting a reality show, lol, *but* I think that seeing how she works with younger children can be very helpful if you need some visual examples. How she handles time-outs with small ones, especially the ones who get up (over and over and over), and her gentle and loving but firmly consistent approach can be really helpful... The amount of talking she does, coupled with the amount she does *not* do at various ages is also useful. For instance, with a toddler, you can explain the problem in one sentence the first time, the second time it's a two-word summary of what you said the first time, and after that, you simply stop them and return them to the time out spot without talking. Over and over and over. Whereas with an older child, there's a lot more talk... Too many times we talk too much with toddlers -- and too little with our older ones.

 

With an active 2yo like you describe, I'd have her outside as much as possible, in places where she can run and climb. Aim for a minimum of 2 hours a day outside -- whether that's going to the park, walking in the neighborhood (one of those tricycles with a handle so you can guide it a bit while the baby rides in a sling or backpack is really great), just playing in the yard digging holes or playing in a sandbox or with bubbles or on a simple (kid-powered) ride-on toy... Fresh air, vitamin d from sunshine, and a chance to work out some of that energy.

 

But don't get discouraged. She won't always be two. And your loving, consistent discipline *will* pay off.

 

One more thing... *If* I were in your position with an adopted toddler who was showing even less impulse control than I thought average for a two year old... And maybe this is controversial, but I would look at oxytocin supplementation. There is some evidence that children who are adopted (even at birth) are less able to produce oxytocin than children who remain with their birth parents (regardless of how loving, affectionate, and stable the adoptive family). Some kids are more effected than others. But it's something I would at least *consider* (by doing more research), if I felt there were evidence that this might be an issue...

[abbeyej]

...disrupting something like Mass (logical consequence would be to ignore her if she is just trying to get attention)...

 

In this case, I would carry the child out (you can't be in Mass if you're disruptive), and place her in a corner in an empty room (where there's no one to pay attention to her and no one to be disturbed) and sit with my back to her (perhaps even close enough into the corner so that she can't move out, if necessary). No, you don't want to reward her demands for attention with attention -- but she can't be around people (in mass) if she's being disruptive. I would also be working hard to make sure she realized that whatever alternatives existed, they would be more boring and less pleasant than sitting quietly on Mommy's lap (and looking at a board book or holding a favorite stuffed animal, etc) during Mass. Even sitting on a toilet in a bathroom stall (if there's no other good place to isolate) with Mommy refusing to meet her eyes or communicate other than to say, "No, we sit quietly in mass"... And, of course, when she's ready to behave, lots of kisses and a snuggly place in Mommy's lap when it's appropriate to return to Mass...

[Ester Maria]

While I definitely cannot put myself in your shoes, as I had rather "easy" toddlers, I can tell you how I used to calm mine.

 

I figured out very soon that refined sugar triggers hyperactivity in my younger daughter, and so do the loud and "psychotic" media. I cannot tell you how much that child changes, even today when she is 12 years old, when she doesn't consume ANY sugar and ANY TV. Now that she's older we can talk to her about it, make her realize it triggers some of the behavior and frustration nobody likes (including her), so she can moderate it herself - but when she was younger, we really took care of it, for both of them. I also know a LOT of close friends and family who do the same with their kids, particularly toddlers. I cannot guarantee that your child is among them, but for some children that really seems to be a magic cure: strict diet regulations, and strict "mental diet" regulations with regards to loud, special effects media which make you nervous (as in, your body prepares for the reaction, which doesn't occur, so you have almost literally blocks of unused energy inside of your body - with a small child who doesn't even get why is that happening it's even more dangerous).

 

That aside, the WORST thing you can do is to "bribe" the child. Never, ever, ever do it - giving them a toy or something to calm them down. It might be an instant cure for that specific situation, but you're doing a big mistake by doing so.

Make sure they don't hurt themselves and just ignore them. Takes a lot of nerves to be able to do it, but with my kids it worked in those few "sessions" they tried pushing my buttons. :D

If you're in a situation in which they would disturb other people, get out immediately (without buying anything, without eating at the restaurant, without attending mass, you name it) and if possible, don't expose them to such situations until they can handle them properly (that's easier said than done, though).

 

I know they're toddlers, part of it is completely normal, but they have to learn to control themselves, gradually, with your guidance. Check first if it might be a nutritional issue (people would be surprised how many things and illnesses can be tracked down to nutrition - hyperactivity and depression, concretely, are more often than not caused by the excess of sugar), or too much media, or the kid not getting enough physical exercise, and only then think about alternative discipline issues.

[jillian]

In this case, I would carry the child out (you can't be in Mass if you're disruptive), and place her in a corner in an empty room (where there's no one to pay attention to her and no one to be disturbed) and sit with my back to her (perhaps even close enough into the corner so that she can't move out, if necessary). No, you don't want to reward her demands for attention with attention -- but she can't be around people (in mass) if she's being disruptive. I would also be working hard to make sure she realized that whatever alternatives existed, they would be more boring and less pleasant than sitting quietly on Mommy's lap (and looking at a board book or holding a favorite stuffed animal, etc) during Mass. Even sitting on a toilet in a bathroom stall (if there's no other good place to isolate) with Mommy refusing to meet her eyes or communicate other than to say, "No, we sit quietly in mass"... And, of course, when she's ready to behave, lots of kisses and a snuggly place in Mommy's lap when it's appropriate to return to Mass...

i'm not talking the screaming like she did last night (we did leave for that) but the general fidgetyness that she does. with screaming I absolutely leave or if she is being touchy with the people around us.

[kmacnchs]

Check first if it might be a nutritional issue (people would be surprised how many things and illnesses can be tracked down to nutrition - hyperactivity and depression, concretely, are more often than not caused by the excess of sugar), or too much media, or the kid not getting enough physical exercise, and only then think about alternative discipline issues.

 

This is very interesting to me - I never thought about this! My kids don't eat any sugar in general and we limit TV very much (we only get about 6 channels anyway) but it never occurred to me that those things had much to do w/their behavior...very thought-provoking :)

[kmacnchs]

i'm not talking the screaming like she did last night (we did leave for that) but the general fidgetyness that she does. with screaming I absolutely leave or if she is being touchy with the people around us.

 

as far as church goes, we bring an appropriate Bible for my 2yo to look at, a note pad and a pencil. As long as she is quiet and sitting in her own chair, a little moving around is to be expected. I'm not completely still the whole time either! :) If it has been awhile and she has been good but she is getting bored of listening, she gets to sit in Daddy's lap for the rest of the time.

[abbeyej]

i'm not talking the screaming like she did last night (we did leave for that) but the general fidgetyness that she does. with screaming I absolutely leave or if she is being touchy with the people around us.

 

In that case, perhaps it's worth investing five minutes a day (initially -- you can build a little after that) in "practice mass" with her. There are several board books that explain the elements of mass to the very youngest kids, so I'd start with those and a CD of some appropriate music. So after breakfast you say, "Okay, we're going to have practice mass now. Do you want to pick a stuffed animal to come with us?" Then you all "take a walk" to church. Perhaps greet some people you know from church ("Oh, here's Mrs. Whozywhatsit! Hello, Mrs. Whozywhatsit! How is your puppy dog?") -- lots of giggling -- then come to the couch, "Let's sit on this pew!"... Snuggle in together. Then you can ask her, "How do we sit in mass? Oh, yes, so quietly! And you folded your hands in your lap so nicely! ... Then what happens? Oh, you're right..." Talk about each thing that will happen. Stand up, kneel. Look at the pages in your book. Listen to a song at an appropriate time (this is also a good time to help her learn songs or responses that are appropriate for mass), but wrap up your abbreviated pretend mass in about 5 minutes total. Praise her for sitting quietly and paying attention. Then walk home from church ("Goodbye, Mrs. Whozywhatsit! Goodbye, Father O'Connell!") and get a very small snack.

 

Work towards having *her* tell *you* what will happen next and how she's expected to behave. You can ask leading questions, if necessary. You can ask silly things, "And then do the elephants come? Nooo?!?!" and giggle together.

 

You want to give her ownership as much as possible, and prepare her so she knows what to expect -- and what is expected of her. And by doing this every day, it will become habit and not just a torture you spring on her once or twice a week...

[Mejane]

Never mind - abbey already said it.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Mejane

[Ester Maria]

This is very interesting to me - I never thought about this! My kids don't eat any sugar in general and we limit TV very much (we only get about 6 channels anyway) but it never occurred to me that those things had much to do w/their behavior...very thought-provoking :)

My husband is a chemist (pharmacy / international business), he's the one that taught me these things.

To put it blatantly, sugar (especially refined) is a drug and does lots of disservices to your body, EVEN IF used in moderation. Ideally, one wouldn't consume sugar, period. However, that's very hard to put into practice since all of our culture is very sugar-oriented (I'm talking sugar in "chemical" definition now, it's found in a lot of things that you wouldn't expect it in), so the next best thing is to severely limit it.

 

The thing with TV is NOT in the radiation and NOT in inappropriate content (those two are separate arguments) - but rather in the kind of information that TV - any TV, even if you watch child program - serves to your mind. I cannot replicate what he explained to me as it was too professional, but shortly put, that type of information "messes up" with some things in infants' and toddlers' brains that go through some big and important changes at that period, the information is in a way "incompatible" with the needs of their brain at that age. He was ADAMANT about our children watching NONE, or close to none, TV before they were school-aged. Later, it's the same as sugar, unless you lead a very particular lifestyle in a very particular community, and if you want your kids to be "worldly", you cannot rule it out - but you can request it be limited.

 

It is connected to behavior as it's connected to the neurology of the brain. What you take into your body, chemically (= food) is VERY important and influences a lot of things, especially in early childhood when the brain is developing the fastest.

[jillian]

In that case, perhaps it's worth investing five minutes a day (initially -- you can build a little after that) in "practice mass" with her. There are several board books that explain the elements of mass to the very youngest kids, so I'd start with those and a CD of some appropriate music. So after breakfast you say, "Okay, we're going to have practice mass now. Do you want to pick a stuffed animal to come with us?" Then you all "take a walk" to church. Perhaps greet some people you know from church ("Oh, here's Mrs. Whozywhatsit! Hello, Mrs. Whozywhatsit! How is your puppy dog?") -- lots of giggling -- then come to the couch, "Let's sit on this pew!"... Snuggle in together. Then you can ask her, "How do we sit in mass? Oh, yes, so quietly! And you folded your hands in your lap so nicely! ... Then what happens? Oh, you're right..." Talk about each thing that will happen. Stand up, kneel. Look at the pages in your book. Listen to a song at an appropriate time (this is also a good time to help her learn songs or responses that are appropriate for mass), but wrap up your abbreviated pretend mass in about 5 minutes total. Praise her for sitting quietly and paying attention. Then walk home from church ("Goodbye, Mrs. Whozywhatsit! Goodbye, Father O'Connell!") and get a very small snack.

 

Work towards having *her* tell *you* what will happen next and how she's expected to behave. You can ask leading questions, if necessary. You can ask silly things, "And then do the elephants come? Nooo?!?!" and giggle together.

 

You want to give her ownership as much as possible, and prepare her so she knows what to expect -- and what is expected of her. And by doing this every day, it will become habit and not just a torture you spring on her once or twice a week...

Thanks....and thanks to whoever else suggested the toys. We do that already....some paper, we have a St. Joseph book about the Mass, and I try to give her a pep talk before we go in and show her different parts of the church and explain what's going on. I think part of last night's horrendous experience was that we were trying the evening Mass that messes with her bedtime routine. She does better Sunday mornings. We are also trying to get to Mass more during the week to help with the practice especially since it doesn't feel so "wrong" to leave on weekdays (still not preferred but it doesn't make me feel guilty)

[Murmer]

In this case, I would carry the child out (you can't be in Mass if you're disruptive), and place her in a corner in an empty room (where there's no one to pay attention to her and no one to be disturbed) and sit with my back to her (perhaps even close enough into the corner so that she can't move out, if necessary). No, you don't want to reward her demands for attention with attention -- but she can't be around people (in mass) if she's being disruptive. I would also be working hard to make sure she realized that whatever alternatives existed, they would be more boring and less pleasant than sitting quietly on Mommy's lap (and looking at a board book or holding a favorite stuffed animal, etc) during Mass. Even sitting on a toilet in a bathroom stall (if there's no other good place to isolate) with Mommy refusing to meet her eyes or communicate other than to say, "No, we sit quietly in mass"... And, of course, when she's ready to behave, lots of kisses and a snuggly place in Mommy's lap when it's appropriate to return to Mass...

Sadly we currently do this and have for the last 6 months, most Sundays she is in the little room almost the whole service with nothing yet she cannot sit. This is with toys that we play with with her during the service and she can't make it more than 15 minutes. She isn't loud during services she just can't sit or stand in the pew she takes off when her attn is up.

[Murmer]

I do know about food triggers. Dd was diagnosed a year ago with milk allergies pre removal of milk she was uncontrollable. She would have screaming fits that lasted over an hour. She would be extremely abusive hitting kicking ect. Off of milk she is closer to typical but still not like other 2 year olds I know. She just go go go go goes and does not respond to discipline.

 

While I definitely cannot put myself in your shoes, as I had rather "easy" toddlers, I can tell you how I used to calm mine.

 

I figured out very soon that refined sugar triggers hyperactivity in my younger daughter, and so do the loud and "psychotic" media. I cannot tell you how much that child changes, even today when she is 12 years old, when she doesn't consume ANY sugar and ANY TV. Now that she's older we can talk to her about it, make her realize it triggers some of the behavior and frustration nobody likes (including her), so she can moderate it herself - but when she was younger, we really took care of it, for both of them. I also know a LOT of close friends and family who do the same with their kids, particularly toddlers. I cannot guarantee that your child is among them, but for some children that really seems to be a magic cure: strict diet regulations, and strict "mental diet" regulations with regards to loud, special effects media which make you nervous (as in, your body prepares for the reaction, which doesn't occur, so you have almost literally blocks of unused energy inside of your body - with a small child who doesn't even get why is that happening it's even more dangerous).

 

That aside, the WORST thing you can do is to "bribe" the child. Never, ever, ever do it - giving them a toy or something to calm them down. It might be an instant cure for that specific situation, but you're doing a big mistake by doing so.

Make sure they don't hurt themselves and just ignore them. Takes a lot of nerves to be able to do it, but with my kids it worked in those few "sessions" they tried pushing my buttons. :D

If you're in a situation in which they would disturb other people, get out immediately (without buying anything, without eating at the restaurant, without attending mass, you name it) and if possible, don't expose them to such situations until they can handle them properly (that's easier said than done, though).

 

I know they're toddlers, part of it is completely normal, but they have to learn to control themselves, gradually, with your guidance. Check first if it might be a nutritional issue (people would be surprised how many things and illnesses can be tracked down to nutrition - hyperactivity and depression, concretely, are more often than not caused by the excess of sugar), or too much media, or the kid not getting enough physical exercise, and only then think about alternative discipline issues.

[Laurie]

I know she is 2 but every other 2 year old I know do not behave like her and I am at my wits end for what to do to help her. .

 

As the mom of two children on the autism spectrum I would say that this is a red flag. Here is a link with symptoms that you can watch for:

http://www.autismspeaks.org/whatisit/symptoms.php#top

 

Your story sounds so familiar to me. I thought our problems could be solved with "discipline" and wasted a lot of precious time when I should've been changing pediatricians and pursuing a diagnosis. It was actually a blessing that our dc needed speech therapy because it was the speech therapist who told me that she saw red flags for autism.

 

For some children, the "terrible twos" only turn into the terrible 3's, 4's etc. without the right kind of intervention.

[Murmer]

As the mom of two children on the autism spectrum I would say that this is a red flag. Here is a link with symptoms that you can watch for:

http://www.autismspeaks.org/whatisit/symptoms.php#top

 

Your story sounds so familiar to me. I thought our problems could be solved with "discipline" and wasted a lot of precious time when I should've been changing pediatricians and pursuing a diagnosis. It was actually a blessing that our dc needed speech therapy because it was the speech therapist who told me that she saw red flags for autism.

 

For some children, the "terrible twos" only turn into the terrible 3's, 4's etc. without the right kind of intervention.

 

While we do not believe she has autism based on lots of research and knowledge from family that have autistic children we do believe she has something. We are leaning towards sensory proccessing (she loves pressure, self calm by rubbing bony body parts and sucking her tongue, and has an extraordinarily high pain threshold) or adhd emphasis on the hyperactivity/impulsiveness but whether we can get anyone to take use seriously at her age is a worry. It took over 2 months and a casual conversation with a dr outside of our state to diagnose a milk allergy that we had been telling the dr of symptoms since she was 6 months old but no one connected them to milk (actually most of them said not to worry she just had a continual cold and her vomiting was for attention) so I am disinclined to trust drs :(

[Joanne]

While we do not believe she has autism based on lots of research and knowledge from family that have autistic children we do believe she has something. We are leaning towards sensory proccessing (she loves pressure, self calm by rubbing bony body parts and sucking her tongue, and has an extraordinarily high pain threshold) or adhd emphasis on the hyperactivity/impulsiveness but whether we can get anyone to take use seriously at her age is a worry. It took over 2 months and a casual conversation with a dr outside of our state to diagnose a milk allergy that we had been telling the dr of symptoms since she was 6 months old but no one connected them to milk (actually most of them said not to worry she just had a continual cold and her vomiting was for attention) so I am disinclined to trust drs :(

 

 

Don't let your distrust of dr's stop you from getting the help your family needs. When I read the OP, I was thinking spectrum or sensory issues.

 

She's adopted? I'd first avail yourself of any resources available. What was her gestational situation? When was she adopted? Can RAD be an issue?

[Parrothead]

Just going to throw my 2 cents in.

 

Mass is hard for a small child. Do you sit up front where she can see what is going on? Is she allowed small toys, crayons and paper, small snacks and books to keep herself entertained? IMHO all of those are a must until time for First Holy Communion.

 

Have you eliminated all processed foods? Additives that generally make kids crazy (for want of a better word) are sugar, milk, red dye, foods made with things you can't pronounce, aspartame, other artificial sweeteners, sometimes soy, sometimes wheat. You may have to eliminate every thing but whole food and introduce one thing at a time.

 

If you suspect a sensory disorder you can keep it in mind and help her work through it or you can take her to a doctor for an evaluation and possibly therapy. My dd has a sensory disorder and I chose to work with her.

 

As for discipline, consistency is key. In my house fit throwing meant (and still means but I don't have to use it) immediate removal from society, aka sent to bedroom. What works for you may be different. But once you find what it is, keep at it. If you have to hold her in your lap until she is calm, so be it. Remember fast, firm and consistent. Oh, and don't ask her to do something- by asking you give her the opportunity to say no. The only time you should ask is if you mean she has a choice. And not to many choices - either the red shirt or the blue, not the entire closet. Either the apple or the banana not the entire fruit bowl.

 

If you are a spanker, I would caution spanking for every infraction. It will loose its effectiveness. We are spankers, but I doubt that dd has been spanked more than a handful of times.

 

I understand that she is adopted. Could there be anything in her biological background that might need to be addressed?

 

The only other thing I can think of that might help is making sure she is on a schedule. Meals, bed and nap times, morning routines and afternoon routines.

 

Good luck.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Parrothead

[texasmama]

With an adopted child, you might not have much information about the genetics or the prenatal environment, both of which impact a child so much. As I read your description of her, I think of ADHD, sensory processing disorder and possible drug/alcohol exposure in-utero as things to look at. All the discipline in the world cannot fix those things because they are neurological. Looking into food triggers (as you have) is always a good idea. Gluten is another trigger for some kids. I don't mean to try and diagnose your daughter over the internet but just to put forth some ideas of the cause. Until you understand the cause, it is difficult to address the behaviors.

 

That said, none of my children at the age of two years old could have sat through a church service (and none have ADHD). I am also one of those folks who takes a pretty laid-back attitude toward disciplining behaviors that are largely developmental, knowing that the child will grow/develop out of them even if I do nothing but wait it out and not expose them to situations which demand more of them than is developmentally appropriate. (Just my opinion - I know there are plenty of folks who can successfully teach their kids to sit through church services. I am just not one who ever tried.)