How long should a 3rd grader work at a time?

[choirfarm]

I need to up the requirements for my 3rd grader. She is the baby of the family and 8 and so much younger than her teenage brothers. I think I've let her get away with too much. Also, she had vision problems, so I had to delay and go slow with the reading until it finally kicked in this year. She is now reading all the time: American girl books, biographies,etc.

But she cried daily for school, hourly almost. She just finished 2nd grade. She would look at a Phonics Pathway page, " It's too hard." cry, cry, sniffle sniffle. No, try. Actually I ended up bribing her. I would read a couple of pages from our readaloud, she reads a page, I read a couple more pages and she reads a page. Now I timed her and it takes her 2 minutes to read a page!!! I really want to finish Phonic pathways, so we are doing it through the summer. I started Saxon 3 several weeks ago to get the basic drill as she cannot do subtraction or addition facts. (Tried calculadder, it failed.) She still cannot do her two's in time!!! But she can count even and odd numbers to two hundred forward and backwards without missing a beat. She figured out that last night that if I dh and I had been married for 20 years that I must have been 22 and dh 24 when we got married. She loves playing around with money and can easily make change and came to me the other day and said can you give me 40 quarters for my 10 dollar bill. She cries about the Saxon worksheets, but I timed her secretly and it took her 5 minutes for each side!! She flunks all the math timed tests she ever gets. It's not fun. WELL TOUGH. NOT EVERYTHING IS FUN!!!! Sometimes you just work your but off.

 

If she is extremely motivated she got her work done quickly. Next year I am adding in a lot more writing and history. I have three hour to hour and a half blocks. I bet at least 30 minutes of each block will require my reading something to her.

 

This isn't just school. It is chores and everything. She is playing the baby card and I've had enought. She isn't three. She is 8 and i think about what her brothers were already doing at that age. So yesterday she weeded the entire strawberry bed herself. It is just hard because vision was a problem and did cause her problems, so I felt like I couldn't push her in school, but now that's over. Is it reasonable? I keep telling her, "There is no crying in baseball!!) And she gives me the weirdest look. I HATE CRYING AND IT MAKES ME ANGRY.

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I understand. Been there/done that. My oldest was like this. He has amblyopia...had to wear an eye patch with glasses that blurred his good eye so we could strengthen his bad eye. School was awfully hard. Then my second child had difficulty reading. He was, ultimately, diagnosed with auditory processing disorder. Tears, frustration were everyday visitors for a time until I made some changes.

 

We got the idea of twenty minute lessons from Charlotte Mason. This single idea revolutionized my homeschool. The stress disappeared within weeks. The tears stopped and interestingly, educational retention increased. From K-3rd grade we keep subjects to twenty minutes. In late 3rd and 4th, as is appropriate to the child I'm working with, we increase the time to 30 minutes, 5th grade - 40 minutes, 6th grade 50 minutes and 7th grade and up 60 minutes a subject. (Actually by the time my kids are in high school they are fairly independent and are known to spend a couple of hours on math a day, work on research projects till their finished, etc... So the time requirements slip away and are replaced by self direction and motivation.

 

But, for 3rd grade I'd start with 20 minutes and then s l o w l y wean her into 30 minutes...with the goal of having her up to 30 minutes by December.

 

I timed a Saxon lesson once to see how long it would take to do all components of the program. Meeting book, scripted lesson, both sides of the worksheet and the fact sheet. 90 minutes. Most nine year olds do not have the attention capability of 90 minutes. No wonder there were tears!

 

I decided to teach my child, rather than the program. We dumped everything but one side of the worksheet and the fact sheets. On the advice of several teacher friends, we did not time the fact sheets. Rather, I provided a motivation to get it done quickly. "When you are done with that fact sheet, whether it takes you one minute or fifteen, we will _________(do something fun)." Sometimes, I would have to sit by to "cheer," them on from problem to problem. "6 + 8, You can do it!" It worked well.

 

I've used this method with all of my children since. (That was twelve years ago.) We do something like this:

 

1. I read the scripted lesson myself and decide if my student needs the hands on component. If he/she does, then I teach it carefully on one day and do the worksheet the next day.

 

2. We begin each lesson by finding the date on the calendar or creating a fun graph. We sing skip count songs, etc... Plan this in advance. 5 minutes.

 

3. We do one side of the lesson worksheet only. If my student needs additional help in mastering a concept, we save the problems for review day (Friday). 10 minutes

 

4. Math fact practice usually only took a few minutes with a bit of positive motivation. I also think putting the timer away helped open his mind to do the facts faster. The timer paralyzed him.

 

Your daughter is your youngest child. Enjoy her. Allow her to be young. But set firm, but loving and positive boundaries. Try to think in positive terms how to train her not to whine/complain/cry. Negative consequences aren't nearly as effective. (But they do have their place, of course.)

 

I would also encourage you, (if you haven't done so already), to examine curriculum, means and methods to see if there are components of your program that are causing difficulties. We all have to do hard things, of course. But when you have a disability, such as a weak eye, or auditory processing issues, or whatever...the frustration level is already high. The question becomes, "How can I best teach this child, in way that blesses her and helps her in her personal journey?" My goal is to strengthen skills, yet teach my children that they can do anything if they try. Then I persevere to teach them to try by being positive.

 

That may mean sticking with the curriculum she doesn't like...but maybe we can complete it in a different manner or give a postive motivation, adjust our expectation to be more reasonable, etc...

 

I recommend a book by Joyce Herzog called, "Learning in Spite of Labels." It's a very common sense book packed full of ideas to help make learning enjoyable AND effective. I recommend this book to anyone who homeschools...not just those with LD students.

 

I hope this helps.

[....]

Hmmm....I have an 8 and 7 yro and I've have this experience sometimes (but more with the 7 yro boy).

 

For the 8 yro, I printed out a list of expectations (just google "3rd grade expectations" and you get a ton of links) and made her read through it before we started our new school year. "These are what your teachers would expect of you if you were in public school." I also sat down with her and made it clear that "we're not in 1st grade every year". lol. Sometimes, I have to raise the bar above her head or we won't get anywhere (or so I explained to her). Probably sounds harsh, but I push them (within reason) with the schoolwork.

 

I think there's something about that age group, where if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. They really are capable of learning so much at that age, though. We started foreign languages this summer and they are like sponges. :D

[Donna T.]

I don't add more time to my children's days until they are comfortably handling the amount that they are currently doing. I follow Charlotte Mason's recommendations to keep lessons short. For a 2nd grader or 3rd grader, that's anywhere from ten to twenty minutes on each task, maybe a little longer towards the middle to end of 3rd grade if they are doing well. And, the children are not expected to take over their own readings until the age of 9.

 

My 3rd grader (this will be next year for us) will work no longer than 2.5 hours total each day for school work. He has a few simple chores that he is expected to do most days.

[NanceXToo]

We just finished fourth grade over here. Our school day was anywhere from 2 1/2 to 4 hours a day with 2 1/2 - 3 being more of the norm. If it was longer it was because we were doing some really cool hands-on project.

 

If she needed a break or seemed to be getting frustrated by something, we'd take a break or do something else for a while, or sometimes modify.

 

If she had assigned reading, we always read it together- if she wanted me to read aloud to her, I would. If she wanted to read aloud to me, she could. Sometimes we'd take turns reading pages aloud to each other. She also had silent reading time where she could read anything she wanted.

 

I never, ever gave her "tests" (other than spelling quizzes which she enjoyed) and if I had, they would not have been timed tests (unless required for standardized testing or something)... I mean, why? That's just stressful. You can see what your kids are learning by spending time with them every day, they don't need to be tested or graded at those young ages IMHO.

 

I know that my opinion may not be the popular one but I DO believe that homeschooling SHOULD be fun. That's one of the things I absolutely love about it- that it can be more "fun" than public school. More hands on, more creative, more interesting, less stressful. I chose my curriculum based on these things and I'm pretty laid back about it. She's doing fine, she's learning, she's not spending the day crying, I'm not spending the day getting annoyed or frustrated- I would hate spending days like that.

 

If it were me I wouldn't take on a "tough, deal with it" attitude; I'd work with my children to find something we could all live with and enjoy as much as possible. Homeschooling shouldn't be a miserable experience for the children or the parents. She shouldn't be spending her days crying ("almost hourly" no less), and you shouldn't be spending yours getting angry at a second grader (or a third grader). If that's what's happening on a regular basis, something needs to be rethought/re-examined and I don't think that "upping the requirements" is the answer right now.

 

Timed tests, long blocks of time doing school, a mother/teacher who gets angry at you if you don't respond as she expects you to or if you get upset or if you "fail/flunk" a test (and man I hope you don't use that word with her) - who wants to grit her teeth and forge ahead no matter what you want or feel ready for- that's heavy for a young elementary school child. I'm not in your house and I don't really know the situation but if she is sensing that anger and frustration you feel (that *I* can feel in statements like "I HATE CRYING, IT MAKES ME ANGRY!!!!" and "WELL TOUGH!! NOT EVERYTHING IS FUN!!!"), I think that your situation is only going to get worse in the coming year, for you and for her. I really hope I didn't offend you, I just wanted to give you another viewpoint to think about.

 

Anyway. One last thing. I found that by letting my daughter choose the order in which she did things and by sometimes giving her choices as to how she wanted to do those things, she was much more agreeable when it came to those things that couldn't necessarily be AS "fun" as other things. I also found that in the beginning of the year she was much more comfortable if I sat right with her while she did all of her work, whereas much later in the year I could give her some things to do independently while I moved back and forth doing other things and then checking on her- though of course there were still things we did together. I expect that next year, in fifth grade, she'll be more independent still. But at 7 and 8? No, not really.

[EKS]

A couple of things. Vision issues can be a part of a bigger cluster of symptoms. Has she had a complete evaluation? You may be looking at something like dyslexia.

 

Also, frankly, Saxon makes some kids cry. If a resource is regularly making my 8yo son cry, then I start to think about what might be wrong and how to fix it. This has happened two times that I can remember, with Explode the Code and with Saxon 3. We simply dropped ETC because he didn't really need it at that point, and we switched to Singapore to fix the Saxon problem.

 

All that said, I agree with you that not everything is fun. When my kids act like babies, I do show my anger and tell them that they're acting like babies. I am extremely strict about finishing the schoolwork I assign each day and if it's not finished (for the 8yo) by lunch, no lunch until it's finished. Any rudeness results in screen time being taken away.

 

So, my point it that I do examine whether something I'm doing might be causing the angst, but at the same time I enforce strict rules of behavior during our lessons.

 

School for my (advanced) 2nd grader took between 2-4 hours per day this year. Next year I am going to require 4 hours per day. This is what I required of my older son (with LDs) when he was in 3rd grade as well.

 

Keep in mind that if she has any sort of learning or attention challenges, getting work done quickly can take an enormous amount of energy, which could be why it only happens when she's extremely motivated.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Do you think its maybe a curricula choice that is the heart of it? Just a thought!

[choirfarm]

Ok, first of all, I don't do Saxon 3 as written. It DOES NOT TAKE 30 MINUTES. This is the way it goes: I look at the meeting questions and choose 3 or so to have her do ( count evens to 100, let's go look at the thermometer outside, etc.) I then get out the flashcards and she looks at the ones she needs to and then I give her the 45 second timed test. So far the lessons are all review ( just on lesson 20) and so I haven't had to teach anything because she knows it all. So I just hand her the worksheet. She cries, but then when she actually sits down to do it, it takes her 5 minutes or less per side. So, that takes maybe 20 minutes. I switched to Saxon after doing Katy ISD workbook, singapore 2A. I still have her do a page or two from the Singapore word problem every day. That doesn't seem like it is too much.

 

The vision issue is solved. I mean yesterday she saw the book Who Was Sacajawea and read the entire thing and brought it back to me to put on her list. She is averaging a book a day and loves to read. She tells everyone she knows that she used to hate reading but now she hates math and LOVES reading. But that only came after 2 years of having her do the things she hated ( crying for every single vision therapy exercise, saying she can't etc.) I was systematic over the last 18 months and made reading my top goal. I just switched to math being my top goal and it is mainly to get those basic facts down!!!

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

>>I recommend a book by Joyce Herzog called, "Learning in Spite of >>Labels." It's a very common sense book packed full of ideas to help >>make learning enjoyable AND effective. I recommend this book to >>anyone who homeschools...not just those with LD students.

 

I'm so sorry you are having difficulties. I would stand by my book suggestion. This book contains the practical help you asked for when you posted today.

 

I will be praying for you.

[choirfarm]

I guess part of my problem is that my focus is on my two older ones next year who will be 8th and 10th. Their learning is FUN!! We discuss TOG church history and the meaty theological issues, discuss the works I taught in class, agonize over Geometry proofs, etc. It is fun and challenging. I mean how many times do you have to do 2 + 3 until you get it.

[kwg]

I mean how many times do you have to do 2 + 3 until you get it.

lol. I have a rising 3rd grader also and my goal is to get these facts down this summer. I plan on playing games though mostly. Maybe you could throw some of those in there with the other stuff.

 

Oh! And this looks like it might be worthwhile:

 

http://www.ellenjmchenry.com/id74.html

[PeterPan]

I'm with the others that I would look for more problems. Have you done OT? The dyslexia makes their brains store differently, and isolated facts don't stick. That's why she can do it in context and not isolation. The chants store as language and don't go into the math section. You may find the same thing happens with her latin, where she can chant like a pro but finds it challenging to put them together, btdt. My dd is very, very bright, and I think it's literally that it just stores in such a scattered fashion around the brain that it doesn't pull up logically. They have to find it the HARD WAY in their brains, and that makes it taxing. Same for writing, which is like swatting flies. So doing the math in context gives the fact a place to rest, a memory point that gets it closer to where it needs to be. Those worksheets aren't going to help her at all. We used Flashmaster to some benefit. I gave her math tables in a sheet protector, and that has worked WONDERS. Basically though, we just moved on. I give her lots of practice in context. That's how she's getting faster. Lots of word problems, math olympiad, etc. And when you decide to do something that overwhelms her but you feel is important, break it up! Take that saxon worksheet and cover all but one line. Do that one line trying to beat the timer (say 45 seconds, something you know she can do). When she does, give her a sticker for that line and let her put a nickel in a jar. She can earn nickels to win a prize like a trip to the zoo. Make sure it's something she can earn in a week. I tended to make my prizes drag out too long, oops.

 

You might be right. She might be crying because she wants attention or needs more mom time or something, I don't know. Are you getting much time with her, or is it inadvertently going to the olders with their more fun stuff?? If you don't think that's the issue, then I would really question your assumption that her issues are over, because they probably aren't. It's no fun to think you might have to open another can of worms, but that's what I'd ponder. Kids are too willing to please, too wanting to please. When you push through now, you might get where you want, but you could be glossing over more problems that will come back to bite you in the B-U-T-T later. Btdt. I don't know her, but I don't think she's being bad. It's so frustrating because we know they CAN be bad. It's hard to sort out when they ARE being bad and when it's their undiscovered problems causing them to act out.

 

Give her a signal when she's frustrated. Give her an unhappy face card that she can hold up when she feels frustrated. She doesn't have words for what she's feeling, and she doesn't know if what she's feeling is normal. They have nothing to compare it to, don't know what to say, and they just act up. My dd is 11, very very verbal, smart, you name it, and when she gets a headache from her eyes (well actually from her vestibular system, but that's beside the point), she acts as bad as any 2 year old. I can discipline all I want for that, but it doesn't change the problem. She's just being all she can be, and she doesn't know how to be otherwise. You can give her words or ways to signal, understand, realize, or express her own feelings at least, as a patch, till you figure out what the issue is. It might make for some peace.

 

Oh, and try doing your math on a whiteboard, all of it. We did that for an entire year, and I think we're going back. It's just one more way to keep the peace.

Edited June 7, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[FO4UR]

2+3= is another world of symbolic language...I don't think you can expect her to "get it" now just b/c she finally took off in reading. (HOORAY!!!! for that victory!!!) I would take her back to concrete work b/c I'm guessing she can look at 3 forks and 2 spoons and know there are 5 utensils...it may just be when she has to translate the symbol 3 to a value that things get mixed up. Cuisenaire Rods are my manipulative of choice b/c dc can associate the color/length with the value of the numerical symbol. red + light green is as long as a yellow (and my ds7 has a photographic memory for these) so 2+3=5.

 

My 7yo (who does vision therapy too btw), can do fantastic math work irl, in his head, and with the rods. He gets new concepts easily and applies them with excitement. He visualizes C rods in the memorizing facts stage. He does challenging word problems and LOVES them...often spouts off the answer before I can work the problem... Give this same child a timed + test (with single digit addition) and he will produce the exact same tears and frustration as your dd. It's not even the timing of it...if I say the problems orally and act as scribe he zips through...it's the reading/writing aspect. (he still reverses numbers in writing...although we've pretty much got b,d,p,q down now...)

 

Basically what I do is isolate the learning of math from the reading/writing aspects of math. I teach the latter...but I don't expect his best "math" performance with it.

[Tam101]

I don't have any suggestions for you, but it looks like you have already received some advice. To answer your first question my son can work about 3-hours, with short breaks between subjects, before his eyes start glazing over. I have found that the time of day makes a difference too. You could try earlier or later in the day and see if she does better. Ok, I did have a suggestion!

[choirfarm]

I'm with the others that I would look for more problems. Have you done OT? What is OT?

 

The dyslexia makes their brains store differently, and isolated facts don't stick. That's why she can do it in context and not isolation. The chants store as language and don't go into the math section. You may find the same thing happens with her latin, where she can chant like a pro but finds it challenging to put them together, btdt. My dd is very, very bright, and I think it's literally that it just stores in such a scattered fashion around the brain that it doesn't pull up logically. They have to find it the HARD WAY in their brains, and that makes it taxing. Same for writing, which is like swatting flies. But she will write a whole page letter to a friend!!!! So doing the math in context gives the fact a place to rest, a memory point that gets it closer to where it needs to be. Those worksheets aren't going to help her at all. We used Flashmaster to some benefit. I gave her math tables in a sheet protector, and that has worked WONDERS. Basically though, we just moved on. I give her lots of practice in context. That's how she's getting faster. Lots of word problems, math olympiad, etc. And when you decide to do something that overwhelms her but you feel is important, break it up! Take that saxon worksheet and cover all but one line. Do that one line trying to beat the timer (say 45 seconds, something you know she can do). When she does, give her a sticker for that line and let her put a nickel in a jar. She can earn nickels to win a prize like a trip to the zoo. Make sure it's something she can earn in a week. I tended to make my prizes drag out too long, oops.

 

You might be right. She might be crying because she wants attention or needs more mom time or something, I don't know. Are you getting much time with her, or is it inadvertently going to the olders with their more fun stuff??I don't know. She is a cuddler and talks incessantly. She probably asks 20 to 30 questions a day.. I get so tired of "Mom, I have a question. " And to be honest, I don't care. I don't know the answer to lots of her questions, nor do I have the energy to find it out. I've got to help with Algebra or whatever. Now that she can read, I will try to find her books about her questions. She LOVED the Thomas Edison biography she read a month or so ago when his dad called him one big question mark. Her dad spent a whole day with her one day and told me that he drove her completely crazy with all of her questions. She just hates rote memorization and doesn't want to do it. She loves playing the violin and will be doing the youth orchestra after only two years of lessons, but getting her to practice for more than 10 minutes just doesn't work. I have to have her practice for 10 minutes or so twice a day. And I think, boy if she WOULD apply herself, where would she be??? She's currently playing a two page piece that my sons' friends are like, I can't play that!! If you don't think that's the issue, then I would really question your assumption that her issues are over, because they probably aren't. OK, so if they aren't how do I figure it out? I mean her Otis Lenin test was 132, and her scores improved from 33 percentile in reading comprehension to 78 percentile. Most of her test scores were in the 70th percentile range, which would be fine except according to her Otis Lenin she should be scoring in the upper 90's like my oldest son does. It's no fun to think you might have to open another can of worms, but that's what I'd ponder. Kids are too willing to please, too wanting to please. When you push through now, you might get where you want, but you could be glossing over more problems that will come back to bite you in the B-U-T-T later. Btdt. I don't know her, but I don't think she's being bad. It's so frustrating because we know they CAN be bad. It's hard to sort out when they ARE being bad and when it's their undiscovered problems causing them to act out.

 

Give her a signal when she's frustrated. Give her an unhappy face card that she can hold up when she feels frustrated. She doesn't have words for what she's feeling, and she doesn't know if what she's feeling is normal. Oh, yes she does..I feel frustrated. I feel like you don't understand. You don't know how hard it is, etc. But like I said, I sat with a timer and had her do the Saxon page and it took her 5 minutes..that's it. Same with Phonic Pathways. I really feel like we should finish that book. I timed her and she doesn't bobble any of the words and it takes her 2 minutes for the entire page!!!! Ok, how can it be hard????? She is extremely verbal. I just get tired of her telling me it is hard or not fun. They have nothing to compare it to, don't know what to say, and they just act up. My dd is 11, very very verbal, smart, you name it, and when she gets a headache from her eyes (well actually from her vestibular system, but that's beside the point), she acts as bad as any 2 year old. I can discipline all I want for that, but it doesn't change the problem. She's just being all she can be, and she doesn't know how to be otherwise. You can give her words or ways to signal, understand, realize, or express her own feelings at least, as a patch, till you figure out what the issue is. It might make for some peace.

 

Oh, and try doing your math on a whiteboard, all of it. We did that for an entire year, and I think we're going back. It's just one more way to keep the peace.

 

Ok, I'll try. She loves word problems now that she can read so I'll try.

[choirfarm]

She is a perfectionist. She expects everything to be perfect the first time she does it. She did handwriting today and cries because it looks awful. Now honestly, is it perfect? No, but it is REALLY close. Her brother did the same exact workbook and his was so, so, so much worse. I showed it to her, but she expects hers to look exactly like the model the very first time she tries. I tell her it doesn't work that way. She expects the same thing with violin. It sounds terrible. Well, you cannot play a piece perfectly the first time you see it!!! She gets all the notes right but can't do the rhythm. But she is only 8!!! You just have to practice. You just can't look at a piece and play it and she expects to.

 

Christine

[PeterPan]

OT = occupational therapy. They can test for retained primitive reflexes, all sorts of things. There are certain reflexes that when retained and not integrated into the nervous system can actually cause adhd, etc. Just something I've been reading about lately. There are some fascinating clips on youtube about it.

 

You can search perfectionism here on the boards and get some ideas, as there have been threads about it.

 

Now about the phonics, here's the deal. If she is dyslexic (as in the way her brain works), you may need to just ditch it. My dd reads incredibly well, but she can't sound out words. In other words, you're frustrating her unnecessarily. I'd go to something more whole word and do some OG-style spelling (AAS, SWR, whatever you like). Skip sounding out words (traditional phonics) entirely, and see if that doesn't help. It's only in retrospect that I realize my dd reads so well because we DIDN'T do phonics. We did SWR, which had them spelling and breaking apart words, reading back the words they had just spelled, and then reading the words from flashcards (essentially whole word). At NO POINT did it ask them to sound out unknown words on paper, what Sanseri calls torture reading. The reading clicked and she took off. By all rights, with her inability to decode words she should not be reading as well as she is. But that permission to use flashcards/whole word and LOTS OF AUDIO BOOKS made all the difference. I tried easy readers and books for her to sound out, and they got the same response you're getting. I DO know what you're going through. Btdt, and with a few more years on it.

 

She's not getting the rhythm because rhythm is neorological. Find an OT who also does Interactive Metronome. You can't just go straight to IM, or it won't stick. IM addresses the "executive function" level of the brain. That's things like the (insert strong, frustrated descriptor here) messy room, blah blah. That's higher level. The OT has to start all the way back at the primitive reflexes, assess those and all the things that should have developed and happened over the last 8 years. Then, after she deals with all that and fixes glitches, then you get to the cherry on top, the executive dysfunction. Oh my dream, my utter dream, to get to that point, do the IM, and have my dd be a new woman, haha! I'm DONE taking the blame for things. See that's the thing as homeschoolers. We end up blaming someone for what is happening, and it's either that we aren't doing a good job (which isn't the case) or it's the kid's fault. But after years and years of this and KNOWING that inside my kid IS GOOD and IS TRYING, I finally saw there were glitches. When my dd was your age, I thought the same things: my dd needs to try harder, my dd is messy, my dd complains too much... When she got a couple years older and came into her own with personality, I finally realized she WAS trying and something was fundamentally wrong. The "try harder" mantra of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grades no longer felt right in 5th.

 

We ditched the piano too btw. She could read the notes and tell you the letter, or she could strike the key on the piano when you told her the letter. To put all three together was torture, sheer torture. Blew my mind, since it came easily to me as a kid. But like I said, we're done with the "try harder" thing. And no, on her violin work age has nothing to do with it. She may struggle no matter how hard she tries. You're right at that cusp where this is becoming evident. I'm just joining the chorus to say be aware of it as a possibility.

[cottagechick]

I need to up the requirements for my 3rd grader. She is the baby of the family and 8 and so much younger than her teenage brothers. I think I've let her get away with too much. Also, she had vision problems, so I had to delay and go slow with the reading until it finally kicked in this year. She is now reading all the time: American girl books, biographies,etc.

But she cried daily for school, hourly almost. She just finished 2nd grade. She would look at a Phonics Pathway page, " It's too hard." cry, cry, sniffle sniffle. No, try. Actually I ended up bribing her. I would read a couple of pages from our readaloud, she reads a page, I read a couple more pages and she reads a page. Now I timed her and it takes her 2 minutes to read a page!!! I really want to finish Phonic pathways, so we are doing it through the summer. I started Saxon 3 several weeks ago to get the basic drill as she cannot do subtraction or addition facts. (Tried calculadder, it failed.) She still cannot do her two's in time!!! But she can count even and odd numbers to two hundred forward and backwards without missing a beat. She figured out that last night that if I dh and I had been married for 20 years that I must have been 22 and dh 24 when we got married. She loves playing around with money and can easily make change and came to me the other day and said can you give me 40 quarters for my 10 dollar bill. She cries about the Saxon worksheets, but I timed her secretly and it took her 5 minutes for each side!! She flunks all the math timed tests she ever gets. It's not fun. WELL TOUGH. NOT EVERYTHING IS FUN!!!! Sometimes you just work your but off.

 

If she is extremely motivated she got her work done quickly. Next year I am adding in a lot more writing and history. I have three hour to hour and a half blocks. I bet at least 30 minutes of each block will require my reading something to her.

 

This isn't just school. It is chores and everything. She is playing the baby card and I've had enought. She isn't three. She is 8 and i think about what her brothers were already doing at that age. So yesterday she weeded the entire strawberry bed herself. It is just hard because vision was a problem and did cause her problems, so I felt like I couldn't push her in school, but now that's over. Is it reasonable? I keep telling her, "There is no crying in baseball!!) And she gives me the weirdest look. I HATE CRYING AND IT MAKES ME ANGRY.

 

It might be as simple as the fact that she's a visual-spacial learner. She sounds exactly like my son at that age (and even now at age 11). I've been reading lots about how VSL's learn info, and it's very different than the standard 'school' methodology. Here's a couple websites others here have offered that have been a tremendous help and great jumping-off point to learn more.

Visual Learners

Visual Spatial Kids

[FO4UR]

For violin, working 10 minutes at a time may be her "peak" limit. I say, 10 minutes 2x per day is better than a whole 20min if the last half of the 20min are in exhaustion/frustration/boredom.

 

Encourage her to work one measure at a time, and JUST on the rythym first. Do not PLAY it. Clap it, chant it, drum it, etc (Give her the freedom to choose HOW she does it....just not on the violin yet.) Then add another measure the next practice session...and continue on this way until she has a full phrase of rythym mastered, and then play it. THEN....start the same process on the next phrase. (I like to start at the end and work backwards...so I'd master the last phrase...then the 2nd to last phrase...3rd to last phrase...by then I'd get a general pattern and go for those tricky spots, isolate/attack, and then put it all together) Mastering a WHOLE piece in 10 minutes is not likely, but mastering the rythym in one measure IS...let her break up the goal into small, bite size chunks so she feels success and progress.

 

I would have her warm up, do a few minutes of intensive work on a new piece, then review work that has been newly learned...then spend as long as she wants playing for fun. (If she isn't playing for fun, reflect on why!!!)

 

 

It's very possible (I say likely!) there is a link between the struggle in reading English, reading math, and reading Music. Those are 3 different languages. Break up the tough skills into their parts and get to the root cause of her struggles...is it REALLY b/c she doesn't apply herself?

 

"Little by little" on the skills. Lots and Lots of freedom to play (and read and math) without pressure.

 

 

Paula (BSE Music Education...voice major who still relates to the troubles your dd faces LOL! )

[choirfarm]

Hi Paula,

 

I was a music major for several years before I switched and directed our childrens choirs for the last 12 years until I quit this year. So yes, I try to get her to do that but she balks. Oh, her rhythm is quite good. I think I may have given the impression that it isn't. She hates clapping and begs me not to and doesn't want to work the hard measures. I had to laugh when her teacher had her do that and she looked at me and said, "My mom tries to get me to do that all the time." I wish I could show you the piece so you could see how hard it is, dotted sixteenths and such, 2 or 3 notes at a time, triplets etc. I'm not talking about simple rythms like quarter notes. And if she hears it once, then she has it. How you describe working on a piece is how I try to get her to do it. She just complains. My teacher says I have a choice about how we want to approach next year and for me to think about it. As I said, we have kept it easy and no pressure. I've just let her practice for ten minutes. If she likes the piece or the scales or whatever, then she will easily. But he told me that she is playing as well as most of his upper level junior high students. He asked if she was going to be going into ps because she would be high school or college level by 6th when everyone else normally starts and that she would soon outgrow him. How seriously do we want to take it? He had some teachers he can suggest. He can be harder on her, but wasn't sure how we wanted to do it. We're going to the Annie Moses Fine ARts camp this summer and we'll see how that goes. She idealizes the lead singer/player and has had her bags packed for months.

 

She is also really good at sports, so I guess I'm not sure what OT would do. She's taken dance before and done well.

[choirfarm]

It might be as simple as the fact that she's a visual-spacial learner. She sounds exactly like my son at that age (and even now at age 11). I've been reading lots about how VSL's learn info, and it's very different than the standard 'school' methodology. Here's a couple websites others here have offered that have been a tremendous help and great jumping-off point to learn more.

Visual Learners

Visual Spatial Kids

 

Nope, she is EXTREMELY auditory. Listening was her highest test score. When she was 4, we were in the car and she asked me, "Mom, when John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln at Ford's Theater, what movie were they watching?" I had no idea where in the world this came from. We weren't studying it? Until I realized she had been listening to Adventures in Oddyssey's episode about Lincoln earlier that day. From aage 3 until now she spends hours every day listening to radio theater: Narnia, Anne of Green Gables, or Oddyssey. She has no trouble memorizing poems and did all the ones in FLL first thing. She had me skip to each one until she could do them. I've tried the subtraction facts to music, but she hates it and says the music is dumb. (Ok, I have to agree with her!)

 

Christine

[MelanieM]

Based on what you've written here she sounds like a brilliant young girl who is doing quite well. If she's understanding math without the worksheets, and understanding books without the phonics instruction, and understanding her music without the longer practice... then where do you think the real problem is? What would happen if you simply decided that Saxon and Phonics Pathway just aren't that important for her right now? Maybe she would be better served right now with an interest-led education.

 

Maybe when she's saying "it's too hard", what she means is "it's too hard to spend my time doing this thing that feels completely useless and irrelevant to my life, when I could be doing that thing over there instead." It is really hard to do something you dislike when there are so many other *equally valuable* things you would prefer to be doing with your time! And while I'd agree that sometimes we have to learn to make the choice to do the less interesting thing because it makes more sense in the bigger picture, I don't think that an 8 yr old is going to grasp that idea in any meaningful way over a math or phonics lesson.

 

Best of luck to you! She sounds like a fascinating, clever girl. :D

[choirfarm]

Based on what you've written here she sounds like a brilliant young girl who is doing quite well. If she's understanding math without the worksheets, and understanding books without the phonics instructionwithout the longer practice... then where do you think the real problem is? What would happen if you simply decided that Saxon and Phonics Pathway just aren't that important for her right now? Maybe she would be better served right now with an interest-led education.

 

Maybe when she's saying "it's too hard", what she means is "it's too hard to spend my time doing this thing that feels completely useless and irrelevant to my life, when I could be doing that thing over there instead." It is really hard to do something you dislike when there are so many other *equally valuable* things you would prefer to be doing with your time! And while I'd agree that sometimes we have to learn to make the choice to do the less interesting thing because it makes more sense in the bigger picture, I don't think that an 8 yr old is going to grasp that idea in any meaningful way over a math or phonics lesson.

 

Best of luck to you! She sounds like a fascinating, clever girl. :D

Oh my, no. She has spent the last couple of years with INTENSE phonics instruction. We found out she had visual processing areas. She couldn't keep her place in her violin music when she first started. I had to point to the notes to help her keep her place. She could spell CAT, but couldn't read it. It is only in the last couple of months that she has suddenly taken off. I haven't had to point to notes in over 6 months and as I said she is reading a book a day now at least and just finding them all over the house now. Her violin teacher talked about how he saw something just click this fall and she went from playing simple 1 part Christmas carol that had a couple of lines to playing this piece that is two pages long right now with sixteenths and about 30 lines per page.

[choirfarm]

B

 

Maybe when she's saying "it's too hard", what she means is "it's too hard to spend my time doing this thing that feels completely useless and irrelevant to my life, when I could be doing that thing over there instead." Best of luck to you! She sounds like a fascinating, clever girl. :D

YES>. I think that is it, but her test scores are not over the top. Why would she score so low for her ability?

[choirfarm]

Here is a link to another child playing the piece. This is NOT my child, but this is what she is playing almost this well.

 

 

[cottagechick]

Nope, she is EXTREMELY auditory. Listening was her highest test score. When she was 4, we were in the car and she asked me, "Mom, when John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln at Ford's Theater, what movie were they watching?" I had no idea where in the world this came from. We weren't studying it? Until I realized she had been listening to Adventures in Oddyssey's episode about Lincoln earlier that day. From aage 3 until now she spends hours every day listening to radio theater: Narnia, Anne of Green Gables, or Oddyssey. She has no trouble memorizing poems and did all the ones in FLL first thing. She had me skip to each one until she could do them. I've tried the subtraction facts to music, but she hates it and says the music is dumb. (Ok, I have to agree with her!)

 

Christine

 

Being a VSL doesn't mean you don't have auditory skills....in fact, VSL's have extremely acute hearing....especially those with visual issues. Listening by-passes the visual pathway so they can get to the business of processing via images in the brain.

 

VSL just means they store info in the right hemisphere and in PICTURES instead of WORDS. It has nothing to do with eyes and ears :D My son doesn't like to actually read (though I make him) but listens to HOURS upon HOURS of books on tape. He can remember details of things that amaze me....this is because the info goes into his brain via hearing, then it gets processed as pictures or movies in his brain, by passing the visual 'reading'. VSLs are also whole to parts learners, which explains why using phonics to teach him to read was a disaster.

 

There are tons of articles on the visual spatial site I mentioned in my last post. You might find your daughter described there :D I know for my son, I had about given up on every teaching him at home because he just wouldn't focus and LEARN. He is 11 can still can't quickly recall simple math facts. He can't focus (unless it's on something he's really into like legos). He cried when he had schoolwork to do, even though I knew it'd easy for him. He talks constantly, is incredibly curious about EVERYTHING...always asking questions and often driving me crazy with that, has a quirky humor, VERY sensitive emotionally and physically, and is socially a bit immature for his age. Handwriting is atrocious, spelling is a joke, writing is pure torture. I was pretty sure we were dealing with a learning disability at this point (though at your daughter's age I assumed he just wasn't trying hard enough, or I was just a bad teacher...in fact I sent him to public school for the last 2 years thinking I just couldn't teach him). I posted here in hopes of gaining some insight on how to deal with him as I watched him suffer in ps and wanted to bring him back home.

 

That's when someone mentioned VSL...and like you, I thought no way, my son is extremely auditory. Then I took a chance and went to read about VSLs and there were so many light bulb moments that I spent a week in tears over the wasted 'battle of the wills' we'd had. He isn't stupid, ADD, rebellious, or lazy. He just processes information on the right side of his brain....which means traditional schoolwork isn't going to cut it.

 

 

Thankfully there are lots of gals here on the board with VSL learners who have steered me to techniques and curricula within the classical approach to help me educate him without anger, frustration and tears from both of us:lol: Our relationship has changed completely, and I'm stoked about all the fun we're going to have doing school together.

 

Sorry so long....

[cottagechick]

Based on what you've written here she sounds like a brilliant young girl who is doing quite well. If she's understanding math without the worksheets, and understanding books without the phonics instruction, and understanding her music without the longer practice... then where do you think the real problem is? What would happen if you simply decided that Saxon and Phonics Pathway just aren't that important for her right now? Maybe she would be better served right now with an interest-led education.

 

Maybe when she's saying "it's too hard", what she means is "it's too hard to spend my time doing this thing that feels completely useless and irrelevant to my life, when I could be doing that thing over there instead." It is really hard to do something you dislike when there are so many other *equally valuable* things you would prefer to be doing with your time! And while I'd agree that sometimes we have to learn to make the choice to do the less interesting thing because it makes more sense in the bigger picture, I don't think that an 8 yr old is going to grasp that idea in any meaningful way over a math or phonics lesson.

 

Best of luck to you! She sounds like a fascinating, clever girl. :D

 

:iagree:Totally agree with this. If she is VSL, that would explain why she can 'get' stuff without the drugery of repetition. I can give my son very difficult math problems and he'll get the answer, but not be able to tell me how he got there. Classic VSL. Big picture. Whole to parts. There'll be time later for him to go back and pick up the rules of spelling or math facts for example, when he's matured enough to understand why they're important to know....but for now, if he gets it I just move along to the next thing. He'll figure out eventually that upper level math is so much easier when you know those facts, and then we'll find a way to make a 'picture' of those facts so they'll be stored in his right hemisphere where he lives. ;)

 

VSLs need to do it their own way. Not because they're bullheaded and stubborn, but because they intuitively know they can't just do stuff like everyone else and 'get it'. Because they're sensitive, they don't want to be looked at as 'dumb'....so they find ways to learn material (or avoiding traditional ways of learning material, much to our chagrin) that work with how their brains process. That can look like laziness, attention/focus issues, stubbornness, etc.

 

I agree, your daughter is brilliant...she's already coming up with her own ways of learning, and actually has a leg up on her peers because she can think via 'big picture'...a skill that is becoming vital in our world. We need more 'out of the box' thinkers, and I'm grateful I have one to shepherd for a few years before turning him loose to make his mark:)