So frustrated with my 4th Grader and grammar/writing

[JaniceO]

My 4th grade DS doesn't seem to be retaining any grammar or writing information that he's learned. He just handed me a writing assignment and he barely had any punctuation marks in it. He would put quotes for speaking, but that was it. Half of his sentences didn't have capital letters at the beginning and then he would just randomly capitalize words in the middle of sentences. He can barely write a sentence much less a paragraph! We are using Growing With Grammar for grammar and a combination of IEW All Things Fun and Fascinating and Check the Deck for writing. Is it the programs I'm using? Could he have a learning disability? He was diagnosed with ADHD, but could it be something else? He also can't spell to save his life! We tried AAS for spelling, but he couldn't memorize all the rules and then apply them.

[Lindy]

That's what rough drafts are for--getting thoughts on paper. My kids haven't made the jump from book learning to really writing. Every writing assignment I give them comes two-fold: they always do a rough draft (that looks very much like what you describe), then they have to edit it before writing a final copy.

 

Sometimes we edit it together; sometimes they have to do it themselves. I guess I see myself as more of a writing coach and say things like, "Remember when we learned about XXX? How should we use that grammar rule in your paragraph?"

 

I think it just takes time to develop skills from learning texts and to remember them completely for a written piece. That's why rough drafts are so important.

[happymom]

We tried AAS for spelling, but he couldn't memorize all the rules and then apply them.

We tried AAS for spelling too. My son memorized all of the rules but applying them was a different story. We now use Apples and Pears and I am amazed at how quickly his spelling has improved. It takes far less time and for an older child is much less babyish.

 

Half of his sentences didn't have capital letters at the beginning and then he would just randomly capitalize words in the middle of sentences.

In Apples and Pear my ds has to do at least 3 sentences a day. I taught him that before he even thinks of the spelling for the first word he has to think capital letter. Then before he picks up his pencil at the end of the sentence he has to think end mark and figure out which one. I would then watch and if he started his sentence without a capital I would stop him and say, "What is the first thing you are suppose to think about?" At the end if he started to pick up his pencil I would say, "What are you suppose to do before you pick up your pencil?" After many many reminders it has finally stuck. Some kids may know the rules but need a lot of practice before it because a habit that they don't have to think about.

 

MCT teaches that Punctuation is like a traffic light. The Capital letters are like the green lights and tell the reader when to go. The end marks are like red lights and tell the readers when to stop. My son really liked this analogy. I remind him to check his traffic lights before turning in his papers.

[MIch elle]

for grade 4, in my experience. Keeping working on all those skills, have patience, wait several years and then it will all work out. Ask me how I know! ;)

[Verity]

I have two boys with LD's, for us copywork has been really helpful becuase they practice those punctuation and capitalization skills daily and are not expected to know those at the same time that they are constructing sentences on their own. Short, simple daily practice of punctuation, capitalization followed up with regular drills ala FLL 1/2/4 have been producing good results here.

Best of luck with finding what works for you!

[thowell]

for grade 4, in my experience. Keeping working on all those skills, have patience, wait several years and then it will all work out. Ask me how I know! ;)

 

:iagree: i would also add that I saw a big improvement this year after really doing dictation everyday. Dd9 has improved alot in her writing and grammar.

[LindaOz]

Dictation.

 

Dictation.

 

Dictation.

 

Every day.

 

It's great for teaching those skills, and for practicing them. :)

[Brenda in FL]

I agree that this is normal. Take the same paper and look at it the next day, make corrections together, review the misspelled words, and have him rewrite it. If the content was good - then praise him for that - and work on the rewrite the next day.

 

All the spelling, grammar, and writing skills will link up eventually!!

[JaniceO]

Thanks! I guess we will just keep working on it and hopefully it will all click. We tried WWE and FLL last year and it didn't work out. He hated it and it left him very frustrated. Dictation is hard for him because he has trouble remembering what is said. Maybe I'll just go back to copywork for him every day.

[happymom]

][Dictation is hard for him because he has trouble remembering what is said. Maybe I'll just go back to copywork for him every day

If he has ADHD then I wouldn't skip this. Dictation is a tool to help kids learn to keep what is said in their heads. It is a skill they struggle with and need to practice. Again I like Apples and Pears. Sentences start out slowly with few words and easy spellings. Work on the punctuation and handwriting right from the start while the sentences are easy. As you progress work on repeating each sentences a fewer number of times. I usually only have to repeat once now. I give the sentence and then a little over half way through I repeat it again. If my ds has gone off course a little he can correct it then.

 

I agree with you that if a child has ADHD or any LD then dictation is hard. They have to keep the sentence in their head while focusing on spelling, handwriting, and punctuation. I too gave up dictation in the early years with my ds but now that we have been doing it every day of 5th grade it has helped his writing assignments so much. He can focus more on what to say and not so much on the mechanics, and writing is not so frustrating any more. Don't give up on dictation the rewards are worth it in the long run.

Edited March 23, 2010 by happymom

[thowell]

You can download a free book on googlebooks called Dictation Day by Day. It is in different levels starting on level2. I started my dd9 in the level 2 and she quickly progressed. Just hand him the dictation passage for the day. Read it aloud together and discuss it. If there are any words that he thinks he may not be able to spell write them on the board and leave them there. After each subject he can review the passage and the words. Allow him to study it for as long as he needs. Then have him close his eyes and try to paint a picture in his mind while you read the passage to him. I read it twice and then dd9 writes it. You will be amazed how it improves their ability to capture thoughts in their minds.

[TKDmom]

Thanks! I guess we will just keep working on it and hopefully it will all click. We tried WWE and FLL last year and it didn't work out. He hated it and it left him very frustrated. Dictation is hard for him because he has trouble remembering what is said. Maybe I'll just go back to copywork for him every day.

 

I'd try WWE at an earlier level. I went back to the beginning of WWE with my 3rd grader this year. We went through level 1 in 3 months and we're now on level 2. It's making a huge difference. Here's a thread that I started a few months ago where I got lots of advice. See if any of it will be helpful for you. It was really hard for me to swallow some of that advice, but I'm glad I did.

[Woodland_Mom]

Thanks! I guess we will just keep working on it and hopefully it will all click. We tried WWE and FLL last year and it didn't work out. He hated it and it left him very frustrated. Dictation is hard for him because he has trouble remembering what is said. Maybe I'll just go back to copywork for him every day.

 

You could try a short copywork passage on day 1, and then use the same passage for dictation on day 2. Start with short passages of 1-3 sentences. When your ds can do that, increase the level of difficulty just a little bit. When you do your copywork and dictation, make sure you discuss punctuation, grammar, etc.

 

I have a 4th grader and he OFTEN forgets punctuation and/or capital letters! Ugh!!! He'll get it sooner or later. Most of us do! :)

[Lori D.]

Gently, I would not expect a 4th grader to be able to simultaneously (or immediately one after the other) be able to put ideas onto paper AND get in all the punctuation, etc.

 

Writing. Spelling. Editing. They are 3 VERY different skills, and they are processed in 3 DIFFERENT portions of the brain. It takes most students years to reach the point where they can do all 3 simultaneously. Even adult writers go back over their writing to revise and edit.

 

JMO, but the goal of teaching writing in the elementary/middle school years is to train your student into the PROCESS of writing -- that writing is a multi-step process:

1. brainstorm

2. put actual thoughts onto paper

3. revise

4. edit

5. final draft

 

My suggestion is to have the student do their writing -- then set it aside for at least 30 minutes (or until the next day). Now have the student put on his/her "editing glasses" and treat his/her own writing as an editing assignment -- put in all the punctuation and capitalization; add in missing words; correct spelling.

 

Using an editing program, use as "Take Five Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing" or Editor in Chief, or doing dictation several times a week can also sharpen those editing/revising skills -- and slowly, over time, the writing and simultaneous editing start coming together. Patience and gentle perseverance -- and BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[texasmama]

Kids with ADHD have a terrible time retaining what is given to them orally. Their brains are very busy with lots of stuff going on and it is a struggle to retain something external.

 

I think I would do dictation each day, starting with one short sentence, having him repeat it back to you before writing it and then having him look at it for the rules of capitalizing the first word and adding a punctuation mark at the end. When he is consistently good at doing this, lengthen the sentence. ADHD has different degrees of impairment and some kids are truly not capable of retaining the information.

 

FWIW, my third grader who doesn't have ADHD and knows to capitalize at the beginning of a sentence did a short dictation sentence as part of his WWE this morning and didn't capitalize it. I often have to prompt him to use punctuation/capitalization so I think that is pretty normal for this age child even without the added difficulty of ADHD.:grouphug:

[MerryAtHope]

I agree, very normal. I wrote a blog entry on how to help kids incorporate their spelling & grammar knowledge into their writing--here's a link. Merry :-)

[JaniceO]

Thanks! I'm looking into sources for dictation. I will just start small and see where it goes. I also want to include copywork and editing practice (fwiw, the assignment he gave me the other day WAS his final, edited draft; he couldn't see the mistakes). The history fact a day editing book looks like something he would enjoy!