IQ tests and LDs

[ondreeuh]

Would anyone be willing to humor me and look at my son's WISC-IV scores?

 

First off, I know the score means very little - we had him given a full psychoeducational test battery to identify learning disabilities and figure out a way to teach him to read. I was mailed a report and I don't totally understand the meaning of it all. So if there are any WISC-IV experts out there, please let me know what you think.

 

Verbal Comprehension - 112

Perceptual Reasoning - 131

Working Memory - 83

Processing Speed - 128

Full Scale - 120

 

My question is about the 48-point spread between his highest and lowest subscores. That's a huge difference, but I don't really understand what it means. Any insight?

[Misty]

Everything looks excellent to me except for the working memory.. This just means he will be forgetful and messy and may have trouble with math in the future. What was his diagnosis (if any)?

 

It looks like your son is VERY smart, but may have some attention issues, forgetfulness, that sort of thing.. Does this sound right?

[Ottakee]

I would say a very bright boy who may possibly have attention/focusing issues. Do you see any signs of ADD/ADHD? If so, you might want to consider treating that. I have seen both in teaching in the public schools and in working with my own daughter here at home that once the meds were started, the reading, ect. really took off. The kids could finally pay attention and hold in their mind what they were reading.

 

I LOVE http://www.3rsplus.com for teaching kids to learn to read.

[LizzyBee]

Would anyone be willing to humor me and look at my son's WISC-IV scores?

 

First off, I know the score means very little - we had him given a full psychoeducational test battery to identify learning disabilities and figure out a way to teach him to read. I was mailed a report and I don't totally understand the meaning of it all. So if there are any WISC-IV experts out there, please let me know what you think.

 

Verbal Comprehension - 112

Perceptual Reasoning - 131

Working Memory - 83

Processing Speed - 128

Full Scale - 120

 

My question is about the 48-point spread between his highest and lowest subscores. That's a huge difference, but I don't really understand what it means. Any insight?

 

Will the psychologist meet with you to discuss the report? Our psychologist spent over 3 hours discussing my kids' reports and the results of each test and subtest they were given. She also discussed curriculum choices in relation to their scores. Without the fuller explanation she gave me during the meeting, the reports would have been much less useful for me.

[kathkath]

it means they ought to give him some help. In my work on my master's degree (in reading) scores like that indicate a kid who can go far with some help. That would qualify him as having a reading disability of sorts.

[ondreeuh]

You ladies are so smart :)

 

He is very, very ADHD. He has been on meds since he was 5. During the testing, the psychologist said that the treatment was "sub-optimal" but we have maxed out the Concerta dosage for children, and I think it's working well enough so we haven't messed with it. I had never even thought of the ADHD still interfering with his academics since he is so cooperative. Hm!

 

What I see in his academics is that his reading & spelling are such a struggle. Corbin was dx as dyslexic and I think at least part of the issue is that it's difficult for him to hold the word in his head while he is sounding it out and spelling it. It's definitely getting better, after so much practice.

 

His language issues go way back. He started speech therapy at 2 and now at 8 still has difficulty being understood by people who don't know him. Children's hosp. child development team said "language disorder" (no kidding!).

 

I forgot to mention this testing was done 2 years ago. We did meet with the psychologist when the testing was done, and he basically predicted the future - Corbin could go to a state or small private college and could be a ranked chess player. :lol: He pushed for me to get Corbin into either Lindamood Bell or Orton Gillingham therapy and said they are different but either one could work. He also said I should see if there's any way Corbin can use Fast ForWord.

 

Well, Fast ForWord is crazy expensive and the school wouldn't get it for him. I was/am reluctant to spend that money without a guarantee. I found a L-B clinic in the area and they said they definitely could help him. 5 months/$4k later they advised me to bring him back when his articulation is better. They had used Visualizing/Verbalizing (which isn't even a problem for him - he visualizes very well) and Seeing Stars. At that point I discontinued therapy and pulled him out of P.S. to begin homeschooling.

 

I used AAS for several months but I have concluded 2 things. 1) In ANY program, he needs spiral, not mastery. We were burning out having to stay at a step until he mastered it. 2) He is not the sort of thinker who goes through a mental checklist. The dry, abstract process of recalling rules is not his strength and he does better when he can visualize.

 

I can't be truly objective, but I would say he is a bright kid who is very interested in learning about various things (fav. subjects are history and science) and is able to relate what he learns in "school" to the rest of his life. He has good verbal comprehension when he can picture the story unfolding in his head and he remembers details. When the subject matter is abstract (like grammar), he has to read the text himself and practice using it for it to make sense.

 

Math comes easily to him because he can visualize the process, but he requires lots of review to not lose the skills. His decoding skills are improving (we are working hard on vowel digraphs and 3-letter consonant blends - trigraphs?). Spelling is ... emerging. I think Sequential Spelling will be good for him. We're only 3 weeks in but I see that he is remembering patterns (like the -ould in could, would, and should).

 

I don't think he is "brilliant" in any academic sense but man, his visual memory is incredible. When we drive he will remember when we traveled on that road 2 years ago to get ice cream or something like that. I have looked at the description of visual-spatial learners and he is totally not a VSL kid though. He's not strong in verbal skills, nor artistic or particularly creative, and has no trouble with math.

[ondreeuh]

Do you think once he is a fluent reader, he will still need intervention?

 

He did Seeing Stars through Lindamood-Bell and made virtually no improvement (they said it was due to his articulation being poor). Then I began homeschooling, and we have done phonics all the way back to the beginning. AAS was a bust, but we use Explode the Code to introduce the phonics skill of the week and just continually reinforce as we read and spell. He can now read the Nate the Great books with almost no help, just some reminders to slow down and not guess. We are just finishing ETC 5 and I plan to go through ETC 8. I did check out OPG from the library, and it looks like we could jump in at lesson 83 (?) to review different ways to read long-vowel sounds, but I think I would do either that or ETC. Any suggestions?

[EKS]

First off, your son is *very* bright. If the evaluator does not give you a full explanation of his/her findings, I would take the report and get someone else who has experience with gifted children with learning disabilities (twice exceptional) to interpret it. The first red flag that I see with this evaluator is that he/she reported a full scale IQ when it should not have been reported with that score spread; at the very least it should not be reported without a thorough explanation of why it is invalid. The reason I say it's a red flag is that an evaluator familiar with 2E children will *always* point that out.

 

Has anyone discussed the possibility of dyslexia with you? The book Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz is a good place to start. Also, The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide is excellent.

[LizzyBee]

Cogmed is a computer program that improves working memory, and in this area costs about $1500. You might check to see if there are any providers in your area.

 

My dd does Interactive Metronome and Therapeutic Listening Program as part of her occupational and speech therapies. Her attention span, reading, and memorization skills have all improved greatly while using these programs. She scored an 83 on working memory at 7y 4m, but now at 8y 8m, she memorizes things very easily.

[ondreeuh]

First off, your son is *very* bright. If the evaluator does not give you a full explanation of his/her findings, I would take the report and get someone else who has experience with gifted children with learning disabilities (twice exceptional) to interpret it. The first red flag that I see with this evaluator is that he/she reported a full scale IQ when it should not have been reported with that score spread; at the very least it should not be reported without a thorough explanation of why it is invalid. The reason I say it's a red flag is that an evaluator familiar with 2E children will *always* point that out.

 

Has anyone discussed the possibility of dyslexia with you? The book Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz is a good place to start. Also, The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide is excellent.

 

The psychologist did say he was dyslexic, and pointed me to Lindamood Bell and Orton Gillingham, and told me to pick one. He did recommend Overcoming Dyslexia, and I bought it and read it, but at the time my son was still in public school and so I didn't really take charge. I forgot I had it, and I will start it again. Thanks for the reminder!

 

The report contains results from four tests: the WISC-IV, the Woodcock-Johnson III, the Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning - 2nd Ed., and the Weschler Individual Achievement Test-II.

 

For the WISC-IV, I already posted the four subscores and the full scale score. I also have the results from the subtests. The tester used digit span and letter-number sequencing to come up with the Working Memory score (the results for the let-num test are in parentheses so I'm not sure if they were used?). I think he would have done better if they'd done arithmetic but he was 6 at the time so maybe they don't usually do it that young?

 

It is weird for me to wrap my head around him being 2e, because he struggles so obviously with reading/writing/spelling & articulation. I think of gifted kids as being very verbal and advanced in those areas and I suppose I discounted any giftedness because of that. We have also been dealing with professionals for so long, focusing first on his speech development and then with his ADHD.

 

Back when he was 2-3, our developmental pediatrician told me he was mentally retarded and I needed to put away the toddler toys and bring the infant toys back out because those were at his level :001_huh:. At 3, my son was kicked out of our beloved daycare for his highly impulsive behavior, and our SLP told me he had apraxia and may never talk. When he was 4, our neurologist told me my son likely suffered a brain injury to his frontal lobe even though the MRI didn't show anything abnormal. Years of speech therapy didn't seem to give him any skills he wasn't already learning at home. We have regular appointments with his cardiologist and urologist, and have basically always been working so hard to fix things. We've never really had the luxury of focusing on how we could challenge him more. That would be a nice problem to have in comparison.

[ondreeuh]

Elizabeth, did they test her working memory with arithmetic, digit span or letter-number sequence?

 

I wonder if my son would do better being tested with arithmetic, since that at least makes sense to him, rather than totally random letter and numbers. I observed that part of the test and saw that he gave up before he really even started.

[LizzyBee]

Elizabeth, did they test her working memory with arithmetic, digit span or letter-number sequence?

 

I wonder if my son would do better being tested with arithmetic, since that at least makes sense to him, rather than totally random letter and numbers. I observed that part of the test and saw that he gave up before he really even started.

 

Her working memory was tested using the Digit Span and Letter-Number Sequencing subtests.

[Ottakee]

Just a random thought here---you said he has articulation problems and ADHD. Does he snore? Are his tonsils or adenoids overly large? I ask as our son's articulation improved GREATLY once he got his tonsils and adenoids removed. He then had more room in his mouth and could form his sounds better. It also helped with the ADHD as he could sleep much better. The tonsils/adenoids were leading to sleep apnea.

 

Our ENT said that he has seen quite a few kids with ADHD that were improved or even "cured" once they had a T&A done as they could breathe and sleep better. It is NOT a cure for real ADHD but if sleep issues are part fo the problem, it can be very helpful.

 

I think the books I mentioned above would be very helpful for him for reading. Fun stories that teach phonics very systematically.

[ondreeuh]

He doesn't really snore, but his voice is kinda nasally. A couple of years ago he was having sinus infections every other month and we did have a CT scan once that showed a huge sinus infection, including enlarged adenoids. We saw an allergist who said they do NOT remove adenoids except in very rare circumstances. Corbin had something like 6 weeks of antibiotics to ensure the infection was gone. The allergist did allergy testing and some immunology testing and Corbin had fewer of a certain antibodies than he was supposed to have. He got a shot, and at the next appt. was retested and the antibodies were where they should be. Since then he's had dramatically fewer colds and no more sinus infections, so we haven't even thought of that since. Food for thought - thanks.

 

Oh I did look at the readers - I don't think we need more at this time, as we rotate between Beyond the Code, a Reading Comp. workbook, and readers, plus he reads all the directions in his schoolwork. I will think about it, though. Thanks.

Edited March 7, 2010 by ondreeuh

[EKS]

The psychologist did say he was dyslexic, and pointed me to Lindamood Bell and Orton Gillingham, and told me to pick one. He did recommend Overcoming Dyslexia, and I bought it and read it, but at the time my son was still in public school and so I didn't really take charge. I forgot I had it, and I will start it again. Thanks for the reminder!

 

The report contains results from four tests: the WISC-IV, the Woodcock-Johnson III, the Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning - 2nd Ed., and the Weschler Individual Achievement Test-II.

 

For the WISC-IV, I already posted the four subscores and the full scale score. I also have the results from the subtests. The tester used digit span and letter-number sequencing to come up with the Working Memory score (the results for the let-num test are in parentheses so I'm not sure if they were used?). I think he would have done better if they'd done arithmetic but he was 6 at the time so maybe they don't usually do it that young?

 

It is weird for me to wrap my head around him being 2e, because he struggles so obviously with reading/writing/spelling & articulation. I think of gifted kids as being very verbal and advanced in those areas and I suppose I discounted any giftedness because of that. We have also been dealing with professionals for so long, focusing first on his speech development and then with his ADHD.

 

Back when he was 2-3, our developmental pediatrician told me he was mentally retarded and I needed to put away the toddler toys and bring the infant toys back out because those were at his level :001_huh:. At 3, my son was kicked out of our beloved daycare for his highly impulsive behavior, and our SLP told me he had apraxia and may never talk. When he was 4, our neurologist told me my son likely suffered a brain injury to his frontal lobe even though the MRI didn't show anything abnormal. Years of speech therapy didn't seem to give him any skills he wasn't already learning at home. We have regular appointments with his cardiologist and urologist, and have basically always been working so hard to fix things. We've never really had the luxury of focusing on how we could challenge him more. That would be a nice problem to have in comparison.

 

Wow. What you're saying here resonates with me so much. My son as a young child (up until he was 8 or 9) seemed (and was) very behind. Unlike your son, at age 7 his FSIQ tested below average (now his GAI falls in the HG range). A lot of 2E kids seem to go the opposite way--that is, seeming very bright as preschoolers and then having trouble as they get older.

 

Over the years, my son was diagnosed as "slow", as having ADHD, vision problems, and APD, and at age 9 he was diagnosed with Asperger's. At age 10 he was undiagnosed with Aperger's and was finally given the diagnosis that makes the most sense: gifted with dyslexia. The gifted thing was finally confirmed with testing at age 12. He has also been taking meds for ADHD since age 12.

 

What I've found with my son is that remediation goes quickly once I've figured out what needs to be done. Some things that seemed to help with his reading were: Audiblox, VT, OT, and later REWARDS and fluency readings. I think if I had known about it at the time, AAS would have been helpful for both spelling and phonics. I never used one of those formal reading programs, because at the time I was teaching him reading I didn't think he had dyslexia and none of the professionals even mentioned the possibility.

[Misty]

Just wanted to clarify what I meant by "trouble with math in the future".. When a very bright child (even gifted) has working memory deficits, they tend to have trouble "juggling" numbers.. So even though he gets the concepts easily, he may have trouble memorizing math facts, algorithms, formulas, etc. in the future. So that is something you will need to watch for when you have a child with working memory problems. My daughter has a working memory deficit and even though she understands the concepts, she will forget what she is doing right in the middle of a math problem..So it's not really an issue of not understanding, but more of an issue of memory and staying on task. Memorizing math facts was hard for my daughter because she couldn't get it past her short-term memory enough to commit it to her long-term memory. Your son probably has executive dysfunction issues as well, huh? Difficulty with organizing, following through, finishing projects, etc.

 

Does your son have a nintendo DS? There is a great game for that called Brain Age 2 that has working memory exercises on it. My daughter also did Interactive Metronome with a psychologist for 5 weeks... http://www.interactivemetronome.com

[ondreeuh]

You have been on quite a bumpy road too!

 

My MIL's friend uses the REWARDS program in her school and thinks she can loan me a TM and maybe get me a workbook, so I plan to give that a try. I am so wary of convoluted, artificial, overly-clinical, EXPENSIVE programs based on our prior experiences, but this seems like something that will translate to real progress. I hope!

[zaichiki]

Would anyone be willing to humor me and look at my son's WISC-IV scores?

 

First off, I know the score means very little - we had him given a full psychoeducational test battery to identify learning disabilities and figure out a way to teach him to read. I was mailed a report and I don't totally understand the meaning of it all. So if there are any WISC-IV experts out there, please let me know what you think.

 

Verbal Comprehension - 112

Perceptual Reasoning - 131

Working Memory - 83

Processing Speed - 128

Full Scale - 120

 

My question is about the 48-point spread between his highest and lowest subscores. That's a huge difference, but I don't really understand what it means. Any insight?

 

Didn't read whole thread b/4 posting. Never mind.

Good luck in finding what you need!

Edited March 8, 2010 by zaichiki
ETA Sorry I didn't read through your responses b/4 posting. Never mind.

[kathkath]

Even when he becomes fluent he may have comprehension issues because of the working memory deficit.

 

Have they looked into central auditory processing disorder?

 

Now, during read-aloud time I would model reading comprehension strategies. Stephanie Harvey's Strategies that Work is an excellent resource for this. All you need to buy is the book and a bunch of big post-it-notes. That will set him up for success in comprehension in the future, even if you aren't working specifically on that right now. The strategies in that book will be good coping mechanisms for issues in working memory.

[zootle]

Hi,

My son's scores looked much like your son's scores. He is doing better after alot of work on his working memory. He also had many visual issues. I still have many of the things that I have used with him. I will gather them up and see which of them I might suggest you try.

Cindy

[ondreeuh]

Thanks. Those scores are actually 2 years old (I know I wasn't clear about that in my post) and I know his working memory has improved somewhat, so I don't know how much more work he needs in that area. If you have suggestions I'd love to hear them.

[cillakat]

we had him given a full psychoeducational test battery to identify learning disabilities and figure out a way to teach him to read. I was mailed a report and I don't totally understand the meaning of it all. So if there are any WISC-IV experts out there, please let me know what you think.

 

 

Can you post the rest of the info? Subtest details are also important especially with such a spread. Was a TOWL or CTOPP done as well?

 

:)

K

[ondreeuh]

Can you post the rest of the info? Subtest details are also important especially with such a spread. Was a TOWL or CTOPP done as well?

 

:)

K

 

All right - here I go!

 

(Isn't it interesting that his working memory was so poor, but he did so well on listening comprehension? I remember the psych. would give him a sentence and ask Corbin to repeat it back - Corbin substituted words but clearly understood the idea. I think one sentence was about jogging by a lake, and Corbin answered back that the guy was running by the water, or something like that.

 

At the time this test was done, Corbin had spent nearly 2 years in public school doing their phonics, and had specialized instruction outlined in his IEP. Fat lot of good that did. Now he is reading at a 3rd grade level so those scores may be better if the testing was repeated.)

 

------------

WISC-IV

 

Verbal Comprehension (IQ 112, 79%)

 

 

• Similarities - 11 (scaled score)

• Vocabulary - 12

• Comprehension - 14

• (Information) - 7

• (Word Reasoning) - 8

 

Perceptual Reasoning (IQ 131, 98%)

 

 

• Block Design - 13

• Picture Concepts - 17

• Matrix Reasoning - (15

• (Picture Completion) - -- (not done, I guess)

 

Working Memory (IQ 83, 13%)

 

 

• Digit Span - 7

• Let.-No. Seq. - (7)

• (Arithmetic) - -- (not done?)

 

Processing Speed (IQ 128, 97%)

 

 

• Coding - 15

• Symbol Search - (15)

• (Cancellation) - -- (not done?)

 

----------------

Wodcock-Johnson III - Tests of Cognitive Ability

Cognitive Efficiency - Standard Score 96, 39%

 

 

• Visual Matching - SS 106, 66%

• Numbers Reversed - SS 92, 30%

 

Processing Speed - Standard score 117, 87%

 

 

• Visual Matching - SS 106, 66%

• Decision Speed - SS 127, 96%

• Pair Cancellation - SS 105, 64%

• Retrieval Fluency - SS 105, 62%

 

---------------------

Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning - 2nd Ed.

 

Subtests*

 

 

 

• Story Memory - Verbal 14

• Verbal Learning - Verbal 13

• Number/Letter - Attention/Concentration 6

 

*an average subtest scaled score is 10, with a standard deviation, or significant difference, of 3

Verbal Memory - Index Score 120, 91%

 

----------------------

Weschler Individual Achievement Test - II

 

Reading Composite - Standard Score 88, 21%

 

 

• Word Reading - SS 88, 21%

• Reading Comprehension - SS 104, 61%

• Pseudoword Decoding - SS 82, 12%

 

Mathematics Composite - Standard Score 114, 82%

 

 

• Numerical Operations - SS 117, 87%

• Math Reasononing - SS 108, 70%

 

Written Language Composite

 

 

• Spelling - SS 83, 13%

 

Oral Language Composite

 

 

• Listening Comprehension - SS 114, 82%

 

--------------------------------

[cillakat]

And what about a CTOPP - specifically the phonological awareness and phonological memory?

 

K

[ondreeuh]

I don't think he's been given the CTOPP. His SLP probably did that or something similar but I don't have those results.

 

I did this phonological screening a couple weeks ago: http://www.specialconnections.ku.edu/%7Especconn/page/instruction/ra/case/caseb/pdf/caseb_scene1_2.pdf

 

Concept of spoken word: 6/6

Rhyme recognition: 6/6

Rhyme production: 4.5/6

 

 

• Hop – he said “tockâ€
  
• See – he said “thing†and when I asked him to try again he said “beeâ€
  

 

 

Syllable blending: 5/6

 

 

• pa –per he did not blend, he just repeated the way I said it with the pause between syllables
  

 

 

Syllable segmentation: 6/6 with two small errors

 

 

• he divided basket into “bas-itâ€
  
• he divided fantastic into “fan tas kit†(you should hear him say hamburger LOL)
  

 

 

Syllable deletion: 6/6

Phoneme isolation of initial sounds: 6/6 with one small error

 

 

• he has difficulty articulating /sh/, so it came out more like a /s/, but he was clearly trying to say /sh/
  

 

 

Phoneme Isolation of Final Sounds: 5/6

 

 

• for tooth, he identified final sound as /s/ and had difficulty hearing the difference when I pointed it out
  

 

 

Phoneme Blending: 6/6

Phoneme Segmentation: 6/6

Phoneme Deletion of Initial Sounds: 6/6

Phoneme Deletion of Final Sounds: 5/6

 

 

• for train without the /n/, he said “train†again
  

 

 

Phoneme Deletion of First Sound in Consonant Blend: 2/6

 

 

• clap without /k/ was said â€capâ€
  
• stop without /s/ was said “opâ€
  
• black without /b/ was said “backâ€
  
• drip without /d/ was said “ipâ€
  

 

 

Phoneme Substitution: 6/6

---------------------------------------

[Laurie4b]

I would work directly on the working memory. Read all you can about it. Working memory can definitely be taught for specific tasks, but now they also think that it can be improved generally. Brainware Safari made a big difference in ds's working memory (as observed by me--hasn't been retested since then). It's available for about $50 through Homeschoolers' Buyers Co-op. Beyond that, there is Cogmed. It's got the gold standard that almost no treatment outside of meds has: more than one double-blind study. It was developed as a research tool and is available through psychologists and psychiatrists. It's supposed to be able to increase working memory by 8 or 10 points. It is expensive though--but that 8 or 10 points is BIG.

 

Other than that, I would talk with your ds about working memory and strategies for compensating for it.