Horizons math - do you like it or not?

[myfatherslily]

Why/why not?

 

We finished the Singapore Earlybird books in December. We ended up starting Horizons Kindergarten book B in January. It's going fine. I'm not loving it, but I can't nail down WHY. DD is doing fine. She gets all the answers right with almost no help from me (other than to keep her focused).

 

I've always struggled with math. I really wanted to get something that made you think outside the box, something that taught the real concepts behind math. I don't feel like Horizons does that? I worry that she'll be fine now, but end up struggling later, like I did. I didn't get the teacher's guide. Perhaps that makes a difference.

 

So why should I stick with Horizons for next year? Why might I consider switching? What made you decide? (I had been thinking about using Singapore 1A/B for 1st grade.)

[Ali in OR]

We use Horizons to supplement Singapore. And the K book is great to fill in between Early Bird and Singapore 1A--I would not want to start 1A before first grade. I use Horizons to supplement because it is good for review and for presenting different types of problems. But I would not use it as my primary program. As you suspect, it is not really building the mathematical understanding like Singapore does. It just presents a bunch of different problems every day. Singapore will teach kids how to add and subtract mentally. It teaches the kids how to think mathematically.

 

An example of this I've encountered this year with my first grader:

Horizons 1 book 1 will teach kids how to line up double digit numbers and add the columns before the kids know enough about place value to handle renaming/carrying. So if the child can do 4+2 and 5+3, Horizons will give them problems like 45+23. The child just adds the columns and Horizons is careful to never have a sum greater than 9 in a column. So dc can add columns, but doesn't have a complete understanding of adding double digit numbers (which I'm sure they'll come back to later). In contrast, Singapore 1A and 1B will teach the child how to makes tens to simplify addition problems (i.e. 8+6--make the 8 a 10--need 2 from the 6 to do this, 6-2 is 4, 10+4 is easy..14.) We are just starting to extend this to problems like 28+6, and later we'll be doing problems like 28+36, all in our heads. In Singapore, you don't line them up and add until 2A. This will build a much better understanding of numbers and place value and much better computational skills than the Horizons approach.

 

I'm very happy with Singapore as our primary program. I do think Horizons helps us be prepared for the standardized tests that are part of life, but I am relying on Singapore to teach my kids how to think mathematically.

[Momof1plustwins]

I'm with you. I'm not crazy about Horizons Math either. I'm using K with my twins and 2 with my 3rd grader. To me, the TM is not necessary for K, but I have used the grade 2 guide.

 

It is so very heavy on memorization, I am concerned that the concepts may not "stick". In grade 2, they have students count by 7's and every other number. I just don't understand the point. They are going to learn multiplication tables anyway, so why not just spend that time, instead, working on more useful topics. All the Memorization was driving ds and I completely mad, so we skip those activities and I cross the sections off the workbook pages.

 

Now I do have one good thing to say...I was very concerned about teaching subtraction with borrowing and I am pleased with the way the TM is easing into that topic. Without actually doing subtraction, we are exploring the different ways to represent a number by taking 10 from one side and adding it to the other. But I am thinking about using something like Teaching Textbooks next year for my oldest and McRuffy Math for the twins.

[Manamana]

I use Horizons as our sole math curriculum and have been happy with it. I started dd8 in level 1 for kindergarten and we are finishing level 2 soon. We've taken a few extended breaks to explore topics or use living math books. We also tried Singapore for a short while but we came back to Horizons. Saxon looked too slow paced for us.

 

I like it because it engages my daughter and moves at a pace that is suitable for her. I do use the teacher manuals because I find the teaching suggestions useful. They suggest skip counting practice out loud to prepare for learning multiplication tables (incidentally I just read about the importance of this on the Math Mammoth website). I also followed the TM suggestion to make place value pockets to teach carrying and borrowing. This worked great.

 

We use some manipulatives (counting bears), a math puppet (Number Bunny) and have done some kinesthetic activities such as number line jumping, etc. to enhance our book lessons. I also use the additional worksheets for time tests/drilling.

 

We also like the variety of spiral learning - she is constantly learning something new and challenging while reviewing previous skills and understanding. This suits her personality. She scores above average in math on her assessment tests so I know she is progressing and doing well.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Manamana

[Annabel Lee]

When Horizons was the main curriculum for my older ds last year (2nd grade), I used a lot of hands-on supplements that I have around. Place value materials, base 10/cuisenaire rods, etc. to present things a variety of ways. I showed him how to "find the 10's" to make finding solutions easier back in 1st grade. I think it's fine as written, because by the end of 6th grade many of the traditional math programs will put your child at the same place as any other. They do use skip counting in prep. for learning multiplication tables. I still keep it around (we switched mid-year this year to Abeka) - Horizons remains my youngest son's main math w/ Abeka as more of a guide until we hit a certain point, and Horizons is just supplement (mainly for very particular types of problems that I noticed Abeka wouldn't get to as much in level 3) to Abeka for my older. I hope to use Singapore between levels or as supplement next year. I switched to Abeka b/c Horizons was feeling disorderly to me. I needed a clear-cut progression to be able to catch where my older son needed gaps filled. I don't like the Horizons 3 math b/c the student pages will have the child list all facts for a certain number family, except there aren't enough spaces for *all* of them. I checked the TM and it doesn't always say which problems the student is supposed to know. This is just a continuation from how Horizons math TMs are in earlier years. For ex., "Practice addition flashcards 1 - 9" - well, what does that mean? Does that mean addition problems with the first addend being 1 - 9, or with sums 1 - 9? There's no way for a person to know. It didn't bother me until level 3.

 

There's a mom somewhere around here that uses and loves Horzions math. Her child(ren) have completed it successfully and gone into algebra or pre-alg. afterwards. It would probably be helpful to hear from her or someone else who likes it too.

[myfatherslily]

Thanks to all of you! I really appreciate your thoughts and experiences (and welcome more). I'm leaning very strongly toward Singapore. If I go with only Horizons, I think I'll get the TM in the future.

We use Horizons to supplement Singapore.

How well do they correspond with each other? More specifically, how do you make them work together? For example, this year I tried to use A Beka Letters and Sounds 1 alongside Phonics Pathways. But, oh my goodness, their teaching order is soooo different! Last year we did Letters and Sounds K with Word Mastery and they went perfectly together. So if I ever combined two math programs, I would NEED them to work out together, cause I don't have the math confidence to MAKE it work, like I can with phonics.

[Ali in OR]

I don't try to make them match up. I cross out maybe half of each Horizons lesson (this is for my 4th grade dd, my 1st grader does all of it except anything I disagree with, like adding 2 or 3 digit numbers right now). This keeps the total workload reasonable and eliminates some tedium. They also do one Singapore lesson a day and I always spend 5-10 minutes going through the textbook with them before they do the workbook exercise. I consider the Horizons more of a review or practice book that they largely do on their own. If there is a topic they haven't seen before, I do a quick explanation. But they are often doing entirely different topics in Horizons than they are in Singapore.

I like that my 4th grade dd keeps reviewing older topics this way. Right now Singapore is addition and subtraction with decimals, but in Horizons she is reviewing fractions, long division, and geometry. This really helps keep her skills sharp.

[....]

Our 2nd grader uses Singapore 2b and our 1st grader uses Horizons 1.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but do you have the Cathy Duffy's 100? That was the key to our decision which math program to use with each kid and it's turned out right on the money. Certain kinds of students are not going to be compatible with Singapore. I think my 1st grader was a 2 with Singapore (which would have spelled a lot of crying and confusion) and a 5 with Horizons.

 

Also, I recommend the TM with Horizons if you're in uncharted waters, although you can get through without it. It has some extra practice worksheets, teaching tips and each lesson has a mini-syllabus to it.

 

I wouldn't be too scared to use Horizons. I am using both programs and they are both great. I have had things show up in Horizons that my 2nd grader had never seen in Singapore.

 

Also with the spiral approach in Horizons...I can't believe my son is actually retaining information. It's a good thing!

[Jennefer@SSA]

We love, love, love Horizons math here! I do strongly believe that to get the full benefit of the program you need the TM and to follow what it suggests carefully.

 

Read this thread that recently posted on the board (especially comments #13 and #14 from Angela in Ohio and Dulcimeramy):

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155476&page=2

 

My ds has always tested strong and we only use Horizons with no supplements. 8filltheheart is a long time user of Horizons (again with no supplements) and her dc have all been well prepared for higher level math.

 

Horizons is a perfect fit for us. I feel that it is rigorous and yet gentle at the same time!

[myfatherslily]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but do you have the Cathy Duffy's 100? That was the key to our decision which math program to use with each kid and it's turned out right on the money. Certain kinds of students are not going to be compatible with Singapore. I think my 1st grader was a 2 with Singapore (which would have spelled a lot of crying and confusion) and a 5 with Horizons.

 

Thanks! I have heard of Cathy Duffy's book, but haven't seen it. I didn't realize it had information like this in it! I'll check the library for it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155476&page=2

 

I must have missed this thread when it came around! Thank you!

 

I love, love, love choosing curriculum. But choosing math just boggles my mind. I feel very lost! I really appreciate all your thoughts!

[myfatherslily]

Is the latest edition of 100 Top Picks from 2005? I just requested it from the library and wondered if this will be the most recent edition.

[KristenS]

We're using Horizons and like it. It's got enough variety to keep the kids engaged, it's easy to cut out unnecessary repetition, and my kids think math manipulatives are toys, so we have plenty of that too. :)

 

The TG does go into suggestions for when to start introducing concepts, usually quite a few lessons before they appear in the workbooks. We mostly use it as a reference to make sure that a strange problem set is being dealt with the correct way. But I can see using the TG more and more as we go on.

 

My kids do well with math, so it's possible most any program would work for them, but we find this one engaging and usable, so we'll stick with it for now.

 

(They're doing 3rd and K this year.)

[StinkyFace]

I use Horizons and Singapore math but not because I don't like Horizon's. I actually do. But I really like Singapore way of teaching math and not memorizing everything. So far it works great, we finish with one program and repeat (and sometimes learn more) in another.

For us it's a great combination!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

We do horizons and singaporel. The teachers guide is essential!! Get that and try it and you will really feel better about it im sure!!!!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I just got the 100 picks from the library and I got the 2005 edition as well. I asked and the librarian said that is the newest they can find so I am guessing that is the newest.

[RanchGirl]

We're using Horizons and like it. It's got enough variety to keep the kids engaged, it's easy to cut out unnecessary repetition, and my kids think math manipulatives are toys, so we have plenty of that too. :)

<snip>

 

My kids do well with math, so it's possible most any program would work for them, but we find this one engaging and usable, so we'll stick with it for now.

 

:iagree: Horizons with lots of manipulatives has been great for us. I do most of the teaching without the teacher guide but I do use it for the tests, and to let them correct their workbook pages. This has worked very well for us. Both kids are doing well in math and I am pretty confident in my ability to teach basic math (especially with the manipulatives, they are key in the first three years in my opinion). One is in level 3 right now, the other finished level 4 and then did a combo of EPGY and Horizons 5 and 6. He also started Life of Fred Fractions about half way through Horizons level 4. (He loves math!)

 

If I weren't using Horizons, I would probably use MEP. I checked out Singapore when ds#1 was starting out and it didn't appeal to either of us. Just our opinion.

[myfatherslily]

What manipulatives do you use? Does the TM give you all the activities to do with the manipulatives?

 

MEP is another one that I've been giving thought to. My intention for this second half of the year was to use Horizons most of the week, then MEP on Fridays. Well, we've only done about 4 MEP lessons:) But DD really enjoys them. Miquon seems good, as well, but I think she'd get bored with the rods all the time.

[Wee Pip]

I absolutely couldn't stand Horizons when we used it for 1st & then I attempted it again in 2nd (why?). But I have several friends that use Horizons and it always makes me want to try it again. I wish I enjoyed it the way they do! I didn't like...

 

1. the lack of mental math, such as MUS, BJU, Singapore, Miquon, Rightstart use.
   
2. the lack of support in the TM. If I was really stumped on how to teach something, I didn't find the steps in there to teaching it.
   
3. the pictures. OK, so this is a stupid reason, but the ugly pics drove me nuts.
   
4. all the problems on the page. Such a busy busy looking page. I like white space:)
   
5. because it is spiral, I can't really pick and choose what I want to do...and if I did, where would I start? (although I have a friend that successfully uses Horizons & she does pick/choose what she wants to do)
   
6. the way it spiraled didn't make sense to me. teach something new for the first time and then totally drop it for a week or two. progression didn't make sense to me.
   

 

[RanchGirl]

What manipulatives do you use? Does the TM give you all the activities to do with the manipulatives?

 

Let's see.... we have cuisenaire rods, math sense blocks (these are my least favorite), base 10 blocks, a jr. al abacus, right start card games, interlocking cubes (we call them quidgets, I don't know where they got that name though), a soma cube, attribute blocks, pattern blocks, Fraction Tower and logic puzzle games like Rush Hour, Hoppers, Spider Man Tip-Over, etc.

 

Recently I was considering supplementing with another program for my younger son but after looking around a bit, I realized he didn't really need more curricula. He needed more discussion/teaching time, and more playing around, and more drilling math facts. Now each day he does one lesson from his Horizons workbook and one extra -- a game, manipulative play, online drills, etc. Sometimes I choose the extra activity, sometimes he does. I have books for most of the manipulatives that explain ways to use them, and sometimes we just play with them or work the related activity cards or pages or whatever. This is primarily when we will discuss mental math type stuff too.

 

All the manipulatives are on a low shelf that he walks by often so he will frequently get them out for playtime. We also use them during lessons but I don't follow the teacher manual exactly; I just I get them out whenever the workbook introduces a new concept and I can think of a way to use one of our "toys". Today my son's lesson was finding equivalent fractions so we used the Fraction Tower to compare several fractions. (Base Ten blocks also come to mind -- they were easy to add into lessons because there are pictures of them in the workbook).

 

We also do online drills for math facts practice, and occasional worksheets if I think a certain concept needs more practice. We talk through mental math issues during some of the games, sometimes we just play and I let him come to conclusions on his own. He definitely has needed more hands on time and more teacher/discussion time than his older brother who jumped to abstract and working independently more quickly, but still Horizons (with manipulatives added in) has worked well for both.

 

hope this is helpful and not too long-winded an answer!

[nd293]

Sarah,

 

I think you are right to have concerns about Horizons. We did Early Bird, then started Primary Maths before dd went to school. When she came back home, we switched to Horizons, as I really liked the idea of the spiral approach, and liked how colourful and visually entertaining Horizons was. I really liked Horizons. It seemed to be teaching effortlessly, adding little bits of the maths puzzle in a way that didn't overwhelm, and dd seemed to manage easily. Then a few months ago I gave dd a placement test for Singapore. I was horrified to find that she had almost no ability to think mathematically, or to take the facts she'd learned and apply them in any other context. We switched to Singapore. It has been really tough going for the past 5 weeks, although I think she is starting to "get it".

 

For my money, if Singapore does what you want, then switch immediately. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to teach a child to think outside the box / facts. You will hear many people talk of Maths programmes being ahead in terms of what they teach, but I think this can be deceiving - when they introduce multiplication or fractions is really irrelevant. But when they introduce problems sums, modeling problems and start to use two operations within one problem is really important to how quickly children learn to see Maths as a problem solving tool.

 

Nikki

[Jennefer@SSA]

Sarah,

 

I think you are right to have concerns about Horizons. We did Early Bird, then started Primary Maths before dd went to school. When she came back home, we switched to Horizons, as I really liked the idea of the spiral approach, and liked how colourful and visually entertaining Horizons was. I really liked Horizons. It seemed to be teaching effortlessly, adding little bits of the maths puzzle in a way that didn't overwhelm, and dd seemed to manage easily. Then a few months ago I gave dd a placement test for Singapore. I was horrified to find that she had almost no ability to think mathematically, or to take the facts she'd learned and apply them in any other context. We switched to Singapore. It has been really tough going for the past 5 weeks, although I think she is starting to "get it".

 

For my money, if Singapore does what you want, then switch immediately. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to teach a child to think outside the box / facts. You will hear many people talk of Maths programmes being ahead in terms of what they teach, but I think this can be deceiving - when they introduce multiplication or fractions is really irrelevant. But when they introduce problems sums, modeling problems and start to use two operations within one problem is really important to how quickly children learn to see Maths as a problem solving tool.

 

Nikki

 

I am going to have to (strongly) disagree. If you have not gone all the way through Horizons you are making a strong statement based on a limited knowledge of a program. There are others on this board who have used Horizons all the way through and found their children well prepared for higher level maths (which to me is the very best indicator of how effective a program is or is not).

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467712#post1467712

 

Read post #10

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1468372#post1468372

 

Post #2

 

I know there are others but 8FilltheHeart is a long time member of this board and several of her children have all used Horizons K-6 and gone on to do extremely well in higher level math, one even in college pursing a "mathy" degree.

 

Horizons does introduce all types of problem solving and mathematical thinking but at a time when children are more developmentally prepared to do this. They spend time in the younger years building a solid foundation on which to add when children are old enough.

 

Are some children ready for higher level type thinking problems in the earlier years...some fore sure. But how much time and effort does it take to get them there? I would rather spend my time in the younger building that foundation and then introducing the things you mention when children are old enough to grasp it quickly and fold it into their repertoire.

 

I am glad that Singapore is working well for you. It is a well respected program and another one where children are known to go on and do well in higher level maths. If my ds would have stayed with it he would be sinking in a deep, deep hole. I think these 2 programs show that there can be (very) different paths that ultimately lead to the same place. That doesn't make one better than another, just simply different.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Jennefer@SSA
Originally typed too early in the am and without my coffee! :)

[nd293]

I am going to have to (strongly) disagree.

 

Great! :)

 

That's what the OP asked for:

What made you decide?

.

[Jennefer@SSA]

Great! :)

 

That's what the OP asked for: .

 

Yikes! I apologize if you felt like this was an attack. I just wanted to offer another side to what I felt like were sweeping statements about a curriculum that are not from someone who has worked through the program.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Jennefer@SSA

[myfatherslily]

Thank you to both of you and everyone else! This is exactly the information I was looking for!