Outlining questions....

[mommy25]

First: Isn't outlining taught for the purpose of organizing/extracting information and then using it to write compositions?

 

Second: Does outlining need to be done exactly the way that others teach?

 

There are a few different ways, that I have seen, as to how to go about teaching outlining: there is TWTM way and the IEW (key word outline) way to name just a couple.

 

So I am wondering: is it important that they know how to do a "formal" outline or can I just teach them how to extract the information from a written source and then to use that info to write. Am I making sense?

 

I have my own ideas as to how I want to do this, but I don't want to hamper them if they do need to know how to do this "formal" type of outline. KWIM?

[lovemykids]

A formal type of outline actually helps them to understand the make up of a paragraph and even a complete essay or piece of writing. You are getting the organization skills in there. A key word outline is another form of note taking, and it is fine for rewriting. Personally, I do both. But I find a formal outline to be a superior writing tool.

[lovetobehome]

:lurk5:

[mommy25]

A formal type of outline actually helps them to understand the make up of a paragraph and even a complete essay or piece of writing. You are getting the organization skills in there. A key word outline is another form of note taking, and it is fine for rewriting. Personally, I do both. But I find a formal outline to be a superior writing tool.

 

I see what you are saying.........I guess it is frustrating for me because I read about how to do it in TWTM and it seems simple enough until I sit down to teach it to my kids. So at that point I want to go off and do my own thing and teach them how to get the most important details such as "What is this paragraph about" and "What are the details that support this topic" and then to worry about getting that information down on paper and not whether is goes under I, or A, 1, or 2....(parts of the outline)

 

Any more suggestions?

Edited January 14, 2010 by mommy25

[Verity]

I see what you are saying.........I guess it is frustrating for me because I read about how to do it in TWTM and it seems simple enough until I sit down to teach it to my kids. So at that point I want to go off and do my own thing and teach them how to get the most important details such as "What is this paragraph about" and "What are the details that support this topic."

 

Any more suggestions?

 

What you are describing is a traditional outline.

I. What is this paragraph about

(indent)A. supporting detail

(indent)B. supporting detail

(indent indent)1. additional detail

(indent indent)2. additional detail

 

etc....

I'm not sure I understand your question?

[lovemykids]

Well, what you want to do is part of teaching outlining; just put that in the proper form. Try the books “Note Taking and Outlining Skills†with the appropriate grade level, it’s multi level but there are two levels, I can’t remember exactly what they are because I haven’t used them. But we do use the Remedia outlining books: “Beginning Outlining†and “Outliningâ€.

Hope that helps!

[mommy25]

What you are describing is a traditional outline.

I. What is this paragraph about

(indent)A. supporting detail

(indent)B. supporting detail

(indent indent)1. additional detail

(indent indent)2. additional detail

 

etc....

I'm not sure I understand your question?

 

My frustration comes with where to put the information.....does that "detail" support that "detail" or does it support the main topic....where does it go in the outline? I guess I find myself wanting to do it this way....

 

A. Topic of paragraph

1. detail

2. detail

B. Topic of 2nd paragraph

1. detail

2. detail

 

and so on....

[Capt_Uhura]

lovemykids - can you speak more about formal outline vs keyword? Do mean formal outline as in short phrases/sentences?

 

I'm looking at Note Taking and Outlining Grades 6-8. It says there are two main styles of traditional outlines. A topic outline is written in brief, simple phrases. A sentence outline is written in detailed, complete sentences, which may be used as topic sentences for paragraphs. All of the samples and problems in this book are single words for the most part.

 

In Remedia Publications Outlining book, it uses phrases.

 

I. Largest bicycle

A. Built in 1873

B. 72 feet long

C. 34 seats

 

I find when I'm taking notes from a lecture, I write in a quasi outline form. I've been taking notes from NOVA history shows and I thought of having DS9 write paragraphs from my outlines.

 

I had Paragraph Writing Made Easy which had outlining it but I've misplaced it. :angry:

 

Capt_Uhura

[Ohdanigirl]

I see what you are saying.........I guess it is frustrating for me because I read about how to do it in TWTM and it seems simple enough until I sit down to teach it to my kids. So at that point I want to go off and do my own thing and teach them how to get the most important details such as "What is this paragraph about" and "What are the details that support this topic" and then to worry about getting that information down on paper and not whether is goes under I, or A, 1, or 2....(parts of the outline)

 

Any more suggestions?

 

I think understand what you mean. I have easily used outlines myself since grade school and on through college, but sitting down and teaching it to my ds was a different story. The Beginning Outlining, and Outlining books have been very helpful (Remedia, I believe). Funny, once I opened the books I thought, DUH!. LOL. Now I can't even remember what my problem was, and my ds found it to be very easy.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Danielle

[mommy25]

I think understand what you mean. I have easily used outlines myself since grade school and on through college, but sitting down and teaching it to my ds was a different story. The Beginning Outlining, and Outlining books have been very helpful (Remedia, I believe). Funny, once I opened the books I thought, DUH!. LOL. Now I can't even remember what my problem was, and my ds found it to be very easy.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Danielle

 

We have been through the 1st and part of the second in those books. But the problem is is that paragraph information does not always fit neatly into a formal outline. Hence, why I like to do the outline as I suggested. It makes sense when you do it from the workbook but when you sit down to outline from a resource, it is a different story (as least in my experience). The problem then becomes, does the information go under A or B or 1 or 2. Instead just listing the details. KWIM?

[lovemykids]

What if we say;

I. Main Topic

A. Sub-topic

1. detail

2. detail

B. Sub-topic

1. detail

Does that make more sense? Hmm, I'm not sure I understand the question either then, if you have used those books already.... Sorry. :confused: I hope someone can help!

 

 

 

Capt. Uhura,

I see what you mean although I do not have the book that you mentioned. I suppose that, yes; keyword outlines can also be a tool for organizing ideas. To me, a formal outline is a better picture for a young child’s mind and it clearly helps with the organization skills.

 

Perhaps keyword outlines will be more effective as my children get older and they have a grasp of how to group information. When I outline a program, it’s not always in a formal manner but it’s just as effective. However, I also believe that formal outlining is important for college. You might as well teach it early and then it’s not as intimidating later on. :001_smile:

Oh,

I mean organized into a “formal” outline such as

I.

A.

1.

2.

whether that be complete sentences or phrases etc. versus line for line keyword notes from a model, such as the IEW method such as four to six words or less per line …

Edited January 14, 2010 by lovemykids

[Colleen in NS]

First: Isn't outlining taught for the purpose of organizing/extracting information and then using it to write compositions?

 

 

I think so. And after you've done this for awhile on other people's writings, you know the format and how to organize ideas, so that you could organize your own notes into an outline, that you would then write your own composition from.

 

A formal type of outline actually helps them to understand the make up of a paragraph and even a complete essay or piece of writing. You are getting the organization skills in there. A key word outline is another form of note taking

 

:iagree:

 

I read about how to do it in TWTM and it seems simple enough until I sit down to teach it to my kids. So at that point I want to go off and do my own thing and teach them how to get the most important details such as "What is this paragraph about" and "What are the details that support this topic" and then to worry about getting that information down on paper and not whether is goes under I, or A, 1, or 2....(parts of the outline)

 

Any more suggestions?

 

You're on the right track as far as your questions about what the paragraph is about and what are the details that support that topic. But are you trying to teach both of those ideas all at once? I found it to be much better to work on "one-level" outlining for months. Practice over and over extracting the one main idea from each paragraph. Then after all that practice, add in the second level, practicing over and over again finding the details that support the main idea. Ds is in the midst of that level now. Next year he will move on to the third level of finding details that support the second level details. When I sat down to start teaching outlining, it required much more thought on ds's part than I thought it would. Then I understood the wisdom of working on one level at a time for a long time.

 

Also, if you do one level at a time, you only have to show them, for example, the roman numerals. Those are easy to list. When you start working on second level, you do one paragraph a time and show them how to list A., B., C. etc. under I., etc..

 

Also, which version of WTM instructions are you using? I highly recommend having a look at the 2009 version - the instructions in there, IMO, are MUCH better. The process is explained using a more easily outlineable text than the red Kingfisher history book (where the info. is compressed), and in the end there are basically three sets of questions that you apply to each paragraph - one set for each level of outlining. These questions alone really helped me to get the ideas across, and helped ds to sort/classify the info. in the paragraph. I think there is also info. on how to determine what type of reading is useful for practicing outlining.

[Colleen in NS]

My frustration comes with where to put the information.....does that "detail" support that "detail" or does it support the main topic....where does it go in the outline?

 

But the problem is is that paragraph information does not always fit neatly into a formal outline.

 

I think the new WTM instructions/questions will address this nicely. It will make sense when you see. I hope. I do think! :D

 

The book also addresses the fact that there aren't always more than one detail to support a main topic, and there aren't always more than one detail that support sub-details.

 

And yes, the levels go Roman numeral, then capital letter, then Arabic numeral. Sometimes a fourth level with lowercase letters is added. But not always necessary.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[lovemykids]

Colleen,

I don't have the new addition. :glare: I want it though! :D

[lovemykids]

I had Paragraph Writing Made Easy which had outlining it but I've misplaced it. :angry:

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I am pretty sure that we lose a book every week, if not more. Sometimes we find them, and other times we do without, or order another one. LOL.

I have to be a library book Nazi, or else we would owe the library a fortune.

Sorry this is OT! ;)

[Capt_Uhura]

Lovemykids - OOOHHHHHH I think I see my confusion. :001_huh: The IEW keyword outline uses keywords from each sentence or something like that right? So when you say keyword outline you mean IEW format? Not just a single word/phrase traditional outline?

 

Capt_Uhura

[lovemykids]

Lovemykids - OOOHHHHHH I think I see my confusion. :001_huh: The IEW keyword outline uses keywords from each sentence or something like that right? So when you say keyword outline you mean IEW format? Not just a single word/phrase traditional outline?

 

Capt_Uhura

 

Yes.

Oooh, on my end as well, I apologize for the confusion. I assumed that was what the OP was referring to. A keyword outline (non IEW) is normally used for formal speech; it is a formal outline broken into keywords, while a formal sentence outline is used for writing or organizing material.

[lovemykids]

And I should add that when we are teaching young children, we use a traditional “keyword outline†form, since it easier for them, right?

But when I come here and refer to formal versus keyword, I mean IEW versus WTM. :)

[TechWife]

First: Isn't outlining taught for the purpose of organizing/extracting information and then using it to write compositions?

 

No, not always. Writing an outline for a chapter, book or article you are reading is an effective study tool. I often do this to help me clarify relationships between the different sections of the material and to aid in memory retention. TWTM suggests outlining as a discipline, a method of study to help the student recognize the information that is presenting in what they are reading.

 

If you are preparing a paper, an outline is often part of the writing process. Typically, it comes after research and note taking, however, IEW uses something called "key word outlining" which is really a method of note taking. For their multiple paragraph papers, they teach to take your key word outlines and create a "fused outline" which is closer to what more traditional writing programs call an outline.

 

Contrary to what I was taught in school, points don't always have the same number of subpoints, so for either a note outline or a composition outline, it is acceptable to have a point A without point B following. Likewise, one paragraph could have three facts, one of which has two items of supporting info. , the second has one item of supporting info. and the third has none. Sometimes, there really is just one point to make!

[nd293]

I have been meaning to ask something similar! We used Remedia Publications Outlining book, which fits in with how I outline, but introduced the number system formally (I just use whatever system is logical based on the information source). I really, really like this book!

 

Now we have started IEW, and I do NOT like their system. It might be fine for short term recall, but 3 words-per-sentence is certainly not going to cut it if you come back to a complex source 6 months or a year later. I also don't like that they "outline" every sentence. IMO, all sentences are not worth recording in an outline.

 

To the OP and the question of what to include in what points (A or B, 1 or 2): I think this is where you're bringing in another skill - that of internalising and processing what you read. When I outline, I am organising material I have read so that the meaning of the source is apparent to me. So where exactly I put the information relates to how I would convey it to someone else in writing or verbally, and not necessarily how the author conveyed it to me. This is certainly the skill that I used when writing university-level essays.

Edited January 15, 2010 by nd293
Correct spelling - up too early, too much coffee