Spelling frustration!!! (part vent, part question)

[Jen+4dc]

Ds7 is finally reading fluently (by fluent I mean he's not sounding out every.single.word.) and reading isn't painful anymore.:001_smile::001_smile::001_smile: This seemed to take a really long time since my olders learned much earlier. I keep telling myself all kids are different and learn at their own pace. But, I'm starting to wonder if there's some kind of LD possibly going on.

 

Ds can read a word but he just can't hold it in his head to spell it. We've been working through SWO level B and he'll do great with picking out the misspellings and deciding which word should go in which blank. But, when it comes time to test (I dictate: I say the word, say a sentence using that word and then repeat the spelling word) he goes absolutely blank. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Often he can't even come up with the first letter unless I prompt, "rule, what sound do you hear at the beginning of rule?" That was one of today's words and he finally wrote "r-l-n." (?? "n" ??? where do we hear the "n" sound in "rule?") The really sad thing is that I had given him the list and had him spend a few minutes looking over the words immediately before we started the test. This was an effort to help him succeed. Nope, nothing. So, after he wrote "r-l-n" I had him erase and we reviewed the 3 ways to make the long u sound from that lesson (-ew, u_e, and -ue). I moved on to the next word (maybe rule was too frustrating for him) "tune." Same result.

 

Anyway, I could go on but this post is already too long. Is this a developmental issue, a possible LD, a curriculum misfit for this particular child, or am I doing something wrong?

 

When we do WWE he rarely has to ask me how to spell a dictation word! If he does I immediately spell it and we move on (SWB suggests making dictation and spelling seperate in WWE2). Is it just nerves because it's a "test?" He aces his math tests.

 

Sigh. Today he burst out that he hated school during his spelling test. Obviously we finished because I don't give in to whining outbursts, but we aren't going to do spelling for a few weeks. I just can't figure this out. It's too frustrating for both of us right now.

 

Any ideas would be appreciated. TIA!!

[The Governess]

You might want to give All About Spelling a try. With AAS, before you use dictation and have them spell from memory, you use letter tiles and have them build the word, having them segment each sound while they are building it. After they can spell the word with the letter tiles, then you move on to spelling it on paper. I think the tiles might help you a lot. If you want to experiment a little before making a switch, cut out some one inch squares and write a letter on each, then see if he has an easier time spelling some of his words using these. There is more to the program than just this, but it might give you an idea at least.

 

:grouphug: Sorry you are both having a frustrating time.

[Jen+4dc]

I have looked at AAS before, eons ago. Are there rules to that or just say the word for him and let him grab whatever letters he thinks he hears? Can I use refrigerator magnet letters? What if he just grabs the r-l-n for rules? I'm still not sure there isn't a problem with him hearing the "n" sound randomly.

[The Governess]

The letter tiles are displayed in a row, and when he spells with them he would say each letter sound as he pulls them down. So, when he pulls down the r he would say /r/ as he pulls it down from the row and into his word. Then if he reached for the l to put next to the r, he would hopefully realize pretty quickly that it's not the sound that comes next and re-think his answer.

 

You could test out the concept with fridge magnet letters but ideally you would use their set, they have tiles for not just the letters but the letter *sounds* so when building the word read, for example, you would us the r tile, the ea tile (since these letters represent a single sound), then the d tile.

 

They also give activities to help teach how to segment the words into their individual sounds. Missing the /u/ sound in the word "rule" sounds like a segmenting issue to me.

 

I should add the disclaimer that this is the only spelling program I have used, and I've only finished one level at that. I also have no advice to offer on the random "n" issue. Hopefully others will chime in as well with some more experienced viewpoints!

Edited January 12, 2010 by lovelearnandlive

[Oak Knoll Mom]

I recommend looking into Reading Reflex. I love how they teach kids to segment a word into sounds. It has helped my struggling reader greatly, but I really think it would help a struggling speller too.

[Ellie]

Well, he spells ok during dictation, and he can do the exercises in SWO. So, really, how important is a spelling test?

[Wee Pip]

My now 9yo was a later reader and couldn't spell at age 6 or 7. We put it away and then at 7.5, things clicked and she could hold spellings in her head. My 7yo dd read much earlier and is smart as a whip, but spelling comes out really weird sometimes. I mean really weird. Frustratingly weird. LOL. We use BJU spelling which has all word families (so, all words that have oi and oy - easy!) She absolutely struggles with any words that have an ng and nk (seems to be that elusive n sound). Anyhow, it may just be something that gets outgrown eventually. You could try switching programs, putting spelling away for a bit, or changing your goals for spelling. For us, we spent many lists not even having final tests or grading them. And some spelling tests I just gave the answers, lol. Things are a bit smoother now. My 7yo just figured out a way that she likes to study for her tests and this seems to be working magic on our spelling lists. But I still wonder sometimes if the weekly spelling list way of teaching is completely and utterly pointless:)

[Jen+4dc]

Thanks ladies. I think for now we'll take a week or two off from spelling to decompress and then just practice the rules and do the pages and skip the tests. If there's no improvement over the next couple months we'll try a new program.

 

Thanks for your help!

[Wildiris]

Coming in here at the tail end of the conversation, but I have an almost seven-year-old DD who would go through Spelling Workout (SW) with ease, but she could not spell the words when it came to dictation or reading--A big disconnect. I dropped SW in December and went backwards and got Adventures in Phonics. The top half of the pages are painfully repetitive, but the bottom half of the page requires some thinking and reading. In my case, I am finding that DD still has trouble with consonant sounds and short vowel sounds--pretty basic. I am putting an emphasis on reading aloud, writing both with dictation and copy work, and phonics. Of my four kids I have only one that learned to read and write early (6/7) with ease. One son did not really learn to read on his own until he was ten. At seventeen you'd never know, but I worked hard to get him into reading and writing.

 

Good Luck

[kalanamak]

I have looked at AAS before, eons ago. Are there rules to that or just say the word for him and let him grab whatever letters he thinks he hears? Can I use refrigerator magnet letters? What if he just grabs the r-l-n for rules? I'm still not sure there isn't a problem with him hearing the "n" sound randomly.

 

I have a so-so reader (not natural and not deeply struggling) and am using BOTH AAS and SWR. I know that people say AAS is like SWR but laid out for you, but I don't know why they do. I have ended up using AAS as drill, reinforcement, and a change of pace, but the original learning is coming from SWR which seems "powerful" to me (that could just mean it fits me and my son's brains best). Now that we are getting onto tougher words, I find my finger cues very valuable. Ditto the hints ("not sure which vowel pair comes here? Well, if it were at the end of the word, it would be the /aw/ as in saw." "I know, "au" when it isn't the end of the word." OR "wait a minute, this is a complicated vowel combo" "Oh, oh! is it the one [whisper] with the 6 sounds?")

Best of all SWR makes my son feel capable. He still runs a perfect page down for Papa to gloat over. He has never done that with any other curriculum, no matter the subject.

 

You could use fridge magnets. For us, this would have gone:

"Rules. The word is rules. Chess has many rules. Rules."

 

"/r/" he pulled down a tile. "/OO/" he looks at me coyly "we are doing the silent "e" today, so U" cocky grin while I nod and make a face. [and here I'll make an error for the example] "/n/" as he pulls down an N.

 

"REally?" I say. Here he knows to try something different. If he sticks to his guns I say "Well /r-OO-n/ would say runes, which is a nice word that rhymes with dunes, but it isn't ruuuuuullllllez."

 

"/l/?"

 

"yes /l/. Now which letter says that?"

 

If he can't get that, I give one very quick tap on the letter on my 3x5 card of letters in alphabetical order. And we move on.

HTH

[AngieW in Texas]

Are you sure he isn't having reversal issues? "n" looks just like an upside-down "u". My youngest is dyslexic and often has issues with b/d. She rarely has issues with p/q, but she does sometimes have u/n, t/f, and m/w. She rarely makes these mistakes in her reading anymore, because swapping out the other sound often won't make a real word, but she does still make these errors in her spelling.

 

My dd sometimes has enough visual memory to remember that a word has a letter in it that doesn't appear to belong, but can't figure out where it goes. She loves the Warriors books and is writing Warriors fan fiction. The word "rogue" appears in the books rather frequently (depending on which book you're talking about). In her story, she spelled it "rouge". She knew it had a "u" in there somewhere that was silent, but stuck it in the wrong place. She has done the same kind of thing spelling "lamb" as "labm". The "b" was silent and she forget exactly where it was supposed to go, but she knew it was supposed to be in there. Of course, since she has so many issues with b/d, it isn't uncommon for her to spell "lamb" as "ladm".

[Jen+4dc]

Are you sure he isn't having reversal issues? "n" looks just like an upside-down "u". My youngest is dyslexic and often has issues with b/d. She rarely has issues with p/q, but she does sometimes have u/n, t/f, and m/w. She rarely makes these mistakes in her reading anymore, because swapping out the other sound often won't make a real word, but she does still make these errors in her spelling.

 

My dd sometimes has enough visual memory to remember that a word has a letter in it that doesn't appear to belong, but can't figure out where it goes. She loves the Warriors books and is writing Warriors fan fiction. The word "rogue" appears in the books rather frequently (depending on which book you're talking about). In her story, she spelled it "rouge". She knew it had a "u" in there somewhere that was silent, but stuck it in the wrong place. She has done the same kind of thing spelling "lamb" as "labm". The "b" was silent and she forget exactly where it was supposed to go, but she knew it was supposed to be in there. Of course, since she has so many issues with b/d, it isn't uncommon for her to spell "lamb" as "ladm".

 

This sounds just like him! He's always writing capital D's when he knows he needs a D. When I ask him if it needs to be capital he will grin and erase it (he knows it shouldn't be capital in the middle of a sentence) but then he writes a lower case b instead of d.

 

Angie, how did you know she was dyslexic? When he reads he often reads "will I go" for "I will go" and "Shall we stay here" when it says "we shall stay here." I've always thought he was rushing and guessing so I have him put his finger under each word as he reads it. That helps but hasn't solved the problem. Could this be a dyslexia issue? Are there other signs I should be looking for? I had his eyes checked months ago after asking this question on this board and getting the suggestion of visual processing disorders. The opthamologist gave him a "clean bill of health." Could it still be dyslexia?

 

Thanks for your insight!

[AngieW in Texas]

My dd had visual efficiency problems, visual processing delays, and dyseidetic dyslexia.

 

The vision part of it I knew from early on. I started making the rounds of optometrists when she was 3yo because I KNEW that something was wrong with her vision. She couldn't go through a door frame without hitting one side or the other. In our house, you had to go through a frame (and it was much wider than a regular door frame because it didn't have a door) and then turn left to go to the kids' room or right to go to our room. My dd always hit one side or the other of the frame and then always hit the wall when trying to turn. She clipped the edges of furniture as she walked past. I knew it wasn't OT related because I'd already been through that with my middle dd and the OT didn't see any problems with her motor skills.

 

My dd could pass the eye chart with no problems (although she had to use the one with pictures because of her problems with letters).

 

At 6yo, I finally found an eye doctor who took me seriously. She did a more thorough exam than any of the other eye doctors did. She actually checked my dd's depth perception (nonexistent), tracking, and sweeping. My dd's eyes jerked back and forth when she tried to have my dd sweep her eyes from one spot to another. They jerked back and forth and went through a weird stick-slip-jerk motion when she tried to track a moving object. This eye doctor knew something was wrong immediately and referred my dd for vision therapy.

 

Vision therapy was expensive and wasn't covered by insurance at all (but insurance hadn't covered speech therapy or occupational therapy for my other dd either, so I was pretty sure it wouldn't be covered anyway). In VT we discovered that the reason my dd's depth perception was off was that she had double vision. Her brain would get confused by the double image and shut off input from one eye, knocking out her depth perception. It took 6 months to graduate VT. At the end of it, the VT told me that she thought my dd was also dyslexic. She should have made progress more quickly than she did if visual efficiency was the only thing going on.

 

I took my dd to the local ps for testing. That showed that my dd's IQ was well into the gifted range, but that she also had a severe learning disability affecting all academic areas. They don't diagnose dyslexia, but I did a lot of googling and finally came across a description that fit my dd exactly. Dyseidetic dyslexia is less common than dysphonetic dyslexia and has different characteristics. That's why I didn't figure out earlier that my dd was dyslexic even though her issues were pretty severe. At 7yo, she couldn't even recognize her own name on sight, even though she could spell her name.

 

http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/dyseidetic.htm

 

By the way, my dd was stuck sounding out every single word until 7.5yo. Headsprout was the program that got her over that hump. It had visual processing exercises that worked specifically on the skills she was weak in.

 

I didn't get her up to grade level in reading until the end of 4th grade.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The other thing is you could do is reinforce phonics since I have heard they should over taught anyway ElizabethB has free phonics and spelling lessons:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/index.html

 

Don Potter's site is great as well

 

http://www.donpotter.net/education_pages/

 

Don potter has Blend Phonics on his site for free which is a 25 page summary of phonics:

 

http://www.donpotter.net/education_p...d_phonics.html

 

Word Mastery which is also found on Don Potter's site is great:

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf_files/w...tery_typed.pdf

 

I also use Webster's Speller the 1824 and 1908 editions also found for free on his site. I prefer the 1908 edition since it has more sentences, but they are both great:

http://www.donpotter.net/education_p...ing_books.html

 

The reason I prefer Webster's is that it has great word lists as well as Word Mastery in the same word family so to speak. In the spelling books such as Webster's Speller and the syllabary were used to teach reading and are fantastic IMHO. Don Potter and ElizabethB have instructions for using the syllabary and Webster's Elementary Spelling. The word lists also help to reinforce phonics and are a great aide to all:)

 

I use these books in PDF form on my computer so that I can save paper. You can also enlarge the print:)

 

I really recommend scouring these sites since they are a wealth of information.:001_smile:

[FloridaLisa]

Anyway, I could go on but this post is already too long. Is this a developmental issue, a possible LD, a curriculum misfit for this particular child, or am I doing something wrong?

 

First of all, 7 is still really young for spelling mastery! It really is. I've had two really *un-natural* spellers. I despaired that they would ever learn to spell! One of them is now well into high school and spells wonderfully; scored well above average on nationally normed tests for spelling as well as the PSAT verbal section. So, spelling can apparently be learned.

 

My other non-natural speller is coming along well. IMO, more important than the spelling curriculum you use is the daily drip, drip, drip of spelling practice. I've tried to help mine *see* the word in their minds. We talk about spelling rules that apply, sound out weird words to help us remember them and practice every day.

 

My older non-speller used Spelling Power, which worked because she was so conscientious about her work and went through every step meticulously. My younger non-speller is using Sequential Spelling and just today remarked that his spelling has come a long way! I agreed!

 

Reassure your ds that spelling is a skill and that his daily practice will pay off. You can call the *tests* review time or some other name to lessen the pressure.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Jen+4dc]

The other thing is you could do is reinforce phonics since I have heard they should over taught anyway ElizabethB has free phonics and spelling lessons:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/index.html

 

Don Potter's site is great as well

 

http://www.donpotter.net/education_pages/

 

Don potter has Blend Phonics on his site for free which is a 25 page summary of phonics:

 

http://www.donpotter.net/education_p...d_phonics.html

 

Word Mastery which is also found on Don Potter's site is great:

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf_files/w...tery_typed.pdf

 

I also use Webster's Speller the 1824 and 1908 editions also found for free on his site. I prefer the 1908 edition since it has more sentences, but they are both great:

http://www.donpotter.net/education_p...ing_books.html

 

The reason I prefer Webster's is that it has great word lists as well as Word Mastery in the same word family so to speak. In the spelling books such as Webster's Speller and the syllabary were used to teach reading and are fantastic IMHO. Don Potter and ElizabethB have instructions for using the syllabary and Webster's Elementary Spelling. The word lists also help to reinforce phonics and are a great aide to all:)

 

I use these books in PDF form on my computer so that I can save paper. You can also enlarge the print:)

 

I really recommend scouring these sites since they are a wealth of information.:001_smile:

 

 

Thanks, Priscilla, blend phonics (from those websites) are actually how I finally got him reading (that and bribery!;)). Maybe it's time to go over the phonics rules again. Ugh, neither of us enjoyed that.

[siloam]

This sounds just like him! He's always writing capital D's when he knows he needs a D. When I ask him if it needs to be capital he will grin and erase it (he knows it shouldn't be capital in the middle of a sentence) but then he writes a lower case b instead of d.

 

Angie, how did you know she was dyslexic? When he reads he often reads "will I go" for "I will go" and "Shall we stay here" when it says "we shall stay here." I've always thought he was rushing and guessing so I have him put his finger under each word as he reads it. That helps but hasn't solved the problem. Could this be a dyslexia issue? Are there other signs I should be looking for? I had his eyes checked months ago after asking this question on this board and getting the suggestion of visual processing disorders. The opthamologist gave him a "clean bill of health." Could it still be dyslexia?

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

Every dyslexic can be different.

 

Here it shows up as not being able to trace a line down a paper without going off it more than three times (we are all probably slightly disgraphic), having recall problems of words, names and such that are not new and we should know. For me it is names, usually the longer I have known the person the harder it is for me to remember when put on the spot. :rolleyes: My 3rd dd has issues with recalling words, and will pause in the middle of talking trying to remember the word. When hsing though all my kids have had times when they just can't remember how to do something or what something means, then the next day it is like there was never any problem at all. When teaching reading they all had reversal issues (both with letters and phrases like you sited), longer than most kids. My 2nd dd could spell for a whole year before she could blend. My 3rd dd can't picture words in her head (neither can I) and struggles to hear sounds correctly in words so we can end up with some very creative spelling. I personally spelled which 4 different ways (including which, and witch) in the same document because none of them looked right to me at the time (it usually happens with high frequency words, and the next day I can spell them without thinking). Because I can't see words in my mind I don't really have a very good memory of how words are spelled. My 3rd dd also struggled for a long time with adding l and r to words, so fed would become fled. On the plus side I am highly analytical because of it, which I love. My kids are very concrete learners and are very hands on. VSL (Visual Spacial Lerner) is a description that fits well.

 

I would recommend AAS, as it is based on O/G (Orton/Gillingham) methods, but in this case you probably could just add Seeing Stars. It is a program that words on seeing letters/words in the mind and holding them there. You don't need to buy the whole package, but can just buy the manual (which I got used for about $30 off Amazon) and add it to the spelling you are doing now. I am using it and a second program, LiPS (which works on hearing and feeling the difference between sounds) with my 3rd dd right now in hopes that she will overcome the spelling problems I have, and so far it does seem to be helping.

 

Heather

[Jen+4dc]

My dd had visual efficiency problems, visual processing delays, and dyseidetic dyslexia.

 

The vision part of it I knew from early on. I started making the rounds of optometrists when she was 3yo because I KNEW that something was wrong with her vision. She couldn't go through a door frame without hitting one side or the other. In our house, you had to go through a frame (and it was much wider than a regular door frame because it didn't have a door) and then turn left to go to the kids' room or right to go to our room. My dd always hit one side or the other of the frame and then always hit the wall when trying to turn. She clipped the edges of furniture as she walked past. I knew it wasn't OT related because I'd already been through that with my middle dd and the OT didn't see any problems with her motor skills.

 

My dd could pass the eye chart with no problems (although she had to use the one with pictures because of her problems with letters).

 

At 6yo, I finally found an eye doctor who took me seriously. She did a more thorough exam than any of the other eye doctors did. She actually checked my dd's depth perception (nonexistent), tracking, and sweeping. My dd's eyes jerked back and forth when she tried to have my dd sweep her eyes from one spot to another. They jerked back and forth and went through a weird stick-slip-jerk motion when she tried to track a moving object. This eye doctor knew something was wrong immediately and referred my dd for vision therapy.

 

Vision therapy was expensive and wasn't covered by insurance at all (but insurance hadn't covered speech therapy or occupational therapy for my other dd either, so I was pretty sure it wouldn't be covered anyway). In VT we discovered that the reason my dd's depth perception was off was that she had double vision. Her brain would get confused by the double image and shut off input from one eye, knocking out her depth perception. It took 6 months to graduate VT. At the end of it, the VT told me that she thought my dd was also dyslexic. She should have made progress more quickly than she did if visual efficiency was the only thing going on.

 

I took my dd to the local ps for testing. That showed that my dd's IQ was well into the gifted range, but that she also had a severe learning disability affecting all academic areas. They don't diagnose dyslexia, but I did a lot of googling and finally came across a description that fit my dd exactly. Dyseidetic dyslexia is less common than dysphonetic dyslexia and has different characteristics. That's why I didn't figure out earlier that my dd was dyslexic even though her issues were pretty severe. At 7yo, she couldn't even recognize her own name on sight, even though she could spell her name.

 

http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/dyseidetic.htm

 

By the way, my dd was stuck sounding out every single word until 7.5yo. Headsprout was the program that got her over that hump. It had visual processing exercises that worked specifically on the skills she was weak in.

 

I didn't get her up to grade level in reading until the end of 4th grade.

 

Thanks Angie! That website is a wealth of information. Of all the symptons listed my son only has 2 so I'm thinking dyseidetic dyslexia is probably not the problem. I think I'll wait for his brain to develop a little more and take him in to have his vision checked out more thoroughly.

 

Thanks everyone! I'm feeling a lot better now (amazing what a little vent can do for you!:D)