Question for Catholics: Did Mary die?

[Parrothead]

I do understand that that is what they believe.

Okay. I must be continually misunderstanding what you've said in that post.

[Renee in NC]

That is a difference in what protestants think He was referring to when He said "Upon this rock". I need to look up the Greek on this again, but He wasn't saying He would build His church on any one, failing human. Peter does mean rock, petras, and He was talking to Peter, from my understanding, but he was saying He was going to build the church on the truth that Peter had just spoken, i.e., that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He wasn't building it on Peter or his talents, his abilities, his righteousness, but on the truth that Peter had just spoken. The two Greek words are different. Peter is petros which is basically small rock or small stone and the Rock Jesus referred to was a large rock. Peter was definitely a key person who affirmed the truth of who Christ was, but the church was not to be built upon Peter himself. Peter was the very one that Jesus also said "Get thee behind me, Satan" and also the very one who denied Him three times. There's not a human being alive, from beginning until present, other than Christ Himself, who could carry the weight of having a church built upon him alone.

 

The only foundation of the church is to be Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God. Again, I am fully aware that Catholics won't agree with that. I'm done. :)

 

Well, considering that Jesus didn't say it in Greek - it is pretty hard to make that determination. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Petra is the word for rock in Koine, but he couldn't call Peter petra because it is feminine (hence the Petros.) The word is the same in Aramaic - cephas. If all he meant was the He was building his Church on the rock of His being the Christ, why bother with the first part of verse 18 at all?

 

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (cephas), and upon this rock (cephas) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Why didn't he just say "upon this rock I will build my church" and leave out the play on words? Why rename Peter at all (from Simon)?

 

No one has said that Peter was perfect. None of us are. However, he gave Peter the authority to separate the chaff from the wheat. This is apparent as you read through the book of Acts.

[lionfamily1999]

N/m

Edited December 11, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[PineFarmMom]

Okay. I'm editing this. I see now the confusion, Parrothead. I think you're saying the keys were given to Peter as the first pope while I was maybe giving him more authority & power than Catholics actually attribute to him? You're saying that his sinfulness and flaws weren't in the way of Christ starting the "church" through him and maybe I was giving him more power than he was due by putting the weight of the church completely on his sinful shoulders?? Is that it? Was that clear as mud? ;)

 

BTW, I still don't agree with it all, and again, me having large faith in the Catholic church (which I don't) would be the only way I would be in agreement but I am trying to get all this clear in my brain. :). I have known, for as long as I can remember, that Catholics see Peter as their first pope...when I said that I knew that's what Catholics thought, that is what I was referring to.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Texas T

[asta]

Okay. I'm editing this. I see now the confusion, Parrothead. I think you're saying the keys were given to Peter as the first pope while I was maybe giving him more authority & power than Catholics actually attribute to him? You're saying that his sinfulness and flaws weren't in the way of Christ starting the "church" through him and maybe I was giving him more power than he was due by putting the weight of the church completely on his sinful shoulders?? Is that it? Was that clear as mud? ;)

 

BTW, I still don't agree with it all, and again, me having large faith in the Catholic church (which I don't) would be the only way I would be in agreement but I am trying to get all this clear in my brain. :). I have known, for as long as I can remember, that Catholics see Peter as their first pope...when I said that I knew that's what Catholics thought, that is what I was referring to.

 

 

That is correct.

 

The Church the not the pope.

 

The Church is not Peter.

 

The Church is the church.

 

The church is universal. It is the people.

 

It is independent of buildings, of politics, of state, of anything: it is the belief in the unbroken line of the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic Church - from the time of the Christ to the present.

 

And people either believe it or they do not. No amount of cajoling, arguing, or anything else can prove it to someone who refuses to believe it.

 

Two excellent authors who attempt to 'prove' it are Augustine and Kreeft.

 

 

asta

 

(who has marched 28 kilometers in honor of WWII vets and is quite tired)

[elizabeth]

That is correct.

 

The Church the not the pope.

 

The Church is not Peter.

 

The Church is the church.

 

The church is universal. It is the people.

 

It is independent of buildings, of politics, of state, of anything: it is the belief in the unbroken line of the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic Church - from the time of the Christ to the present.

 

And people either believe it or they do not. No amount of cajoling, arguing, or anything else can prove it to someone who refuses to believe it.

 

Two excellent authors who attempt to 'prove' it are Augustine and Kreeft.

 

 

asta

 

(who has marched 28 kilometers in honor of WWII vets and is quite tired)

Thank you for saying so clearly and thoroughly what Catholic belief is in this regard. Kreeft is one of my favorite authors .

[asta]

Although...

 

Depending on whom you are speaking with, it would either be One Holy Roman Catholic Church or One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

Just thought of that reading the other thread - it depends on whether you think the RCC split from the Orthodox or that the Orthodox split from the RCC...

 

 

a

[milovany]

Although...

 

Depending on whom you are speaking with, it would either be One Holy Roman Catholic Church or One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

Just thought of that reading the other thread - it depends on whether you think the RCC split from the Orthodox or that the Orthodox split from the RCC...

 

 

a

 

Not to say it's one or the other, but I was curious about this when I saw this -- the Nicene Creed from 325 AD says "one holy, catholic and apostolic church" as there were bishops from all the jurisdictions of Christianity at this council, not just the Roman bishop. Does a different creed have "Roman" in it?

Edited December 13, 2009 by milovaný

[noashmam]

Not to say it's one or the other, but I was curious about this when I saw this -- the Nicene Creed from 325 AD says "one holy, catholic and apostolic church." Does a different creed add "Roman" in there? Just wonder where that came from since it's not the Nicene Creed; there were bishops from all the jurisdictions at this council, not just the Roman bishop.

 

 

I am former fundamentalist Evangelical Christian who converted to the Roman Catholic Church two years ago. When we recite the Creed each Sunday, we recite the Nicene Creed: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We do not say we believe in the Roman church. I think the poster who typed that made a typing error. I think that poster meant to say that Rome is where the Authority lies.....an unbroken line of apostolic succession starting with our first pope who was Peter to the present day.

 

The Church is Universal (Catholic), and has many bishops around the world who make up the Magisterium of the Church. But our pastoral head is our Holy Father who is in Rome....the See of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is First among Equals. Catholics DO NOT believe that he is without sin or perfect (neither was Peter nor any other Pope without sin or perfect). The Pope's teaching office is protected from error by the Holy Spirit when they teach "Ex Cathedra". Jesus is our cornerstone and is our foundation, but he delegated this authority to Peter when he gave him the keys. He also gave authority to the Apostles , "Whoever listens to you, listens to me. Whoever does not listen to you, does not listen to me." But Peter and his successors hold the keys.

 

For a good read on this subject, I highly recommend, "Jesus, Peter, and the Keys"

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Peter-Keys-Scriptural-Handbook/dp/1882972546

 

hth,

Kim

[milovany]

We have some similarities! :) I'm a former evangelical (we were charismatic/pentecostal) who's in the process of converting to Orthodoxy. Thank you for your post! I'm a bit familiar with the Roman catholic beliefs in this area (although of course disagree with how it played out re: the papacy), but my question addressed to Asta was because she had wrote "Roman" in this phrase in two different posts, so that was why I was wondering. It sounds like they say "Roman."

[GVD22]

That is a difference in what protestants think He was referring to when He said "Upon this rock". I need to look up the Greek on this again, but He wasn't saying He would build His church on any one, failing human. Peter does mean rock, petras, and He was talking to Peter, from my understanding, but he was saying He was going to build the church on the truth that Peter had just spoken, i.e., that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He wasn't building it on Peter or his talents, his abilities, his righteousness, but on the truth that Peter had just spoken. The two Greek words are different. Peter is petros which is basically small rock or small stone and the Rock Jesus referred to was a large rock. Peter was definitely a key person who affirmed the truth of who Christ was, but the church was not to be built upon Peter himself. Peter was the very one that Jesus also said "Get thee behind me, Satan" and also the very one who denied Him three times. There's not a human being alive, from beginning until present, other than Christ Himself, who could carry the weight of having a church built upon him alone.

 

The only foundation of the church is to be Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God. Again, I am fully aware that Catholics won't agree with that. I'm done. :)

 

Amen.:)

[noashmam]

We have some similarities! :) I'm a former evangelical (we were charismatic/pentecostal) who's in the process of converting to Orthodoxy. Thank you for your post! I'm a bit familiar with the Roman catholic beliefs in this area (although of course disagree with how it played out re: the papacy), but my question addressed to Asta was because she had wrote "Roman" in this phrase in two different posts, so that was why I was wondering. It sounds like they say "Roman."

 

I looked into Orthodoxy before swimming the Tiber. So glad you are on this wonderful journey to the Ancient Church. My best friends attend a Byzantine Catholic Church and I love visiting her church. The Liturgy is breathtaking.

 

Anyhoo, I was responding to what Asta said, more than what you were asking. Sorry, I should have quoted both but I don't know how to do that??? That said, I don't know of any Roman Catholic Church that recites the Creed in that manner....saying we believe in One, Holy Roman Church. If so, I would like to know in what context it is being recited. Perhaps she is meaning as Roman Catholic Christians, we believe in the dogma of the Papacy. I wanted to respond to the Creed part. When I was in RCIA, we were actually given a copy of the Nicene Creed as part of a ceremonial rite. My dh and I have spent alot of time memorizing it so we could recite it during Mass without reading it.....so I knew it didn't say Roman. LOL That part of the Creed is very meaningful to me as a convert.....we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

 

Looking forward to hearing from Asta. :001_smile:

 

P.S. I came from charismatic and pentecostal background too, although I was baptized in a Baptist church when I was 7. We do have some similarities. I just love reading people's stories. Do you have a blog???

[Peek a Boo]

The church is universal. It is the people.

 

It is independent of buildings, of politics, of state, of anything: it is the belief in the unbroken line of the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic Church - from the time of the Christ to the present.

 

errm....

 

technically, the Church is not the belief in someone's idea of a specific set of Believers, but in ALL people who profess Christ as savior.

 

but i do understand that y'all disagree :)

[asta]

I am former fundamentalist Evangelical Christian who converted to the Roman Catholic Church two years ago. When we recite the Creed each Sunday, we recite the Nicene Creed: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We do not say we believe in the Roman church. I think the poster who typed that made a typing error. I think that poster meant to say that Rome is where the Authority lies.....an unbroken line of apostolic succession starting with our first pope who was Peter to the present day.

 

The Church is Universal (Catholic), and has many bishops around the world who make up the Magisterium of the Church. But our pastoral head is our Holy Father who is in Rome....the See of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is First among Equals. Catholics DO NOT believe that he is without sin or perfect (neither was Peter nor any other Pope without sin or perfect). The Pope's teaching office is protected from error by the Holy Spirit when they teach "Ex Cathedra". Jesus is our cornerstone and is our foundation, but he delegated this authority to Peter when he gave him the keys. He also gave authority to the Apostles , "Whoever listens to you, listens to me. Whoever does not listen to you, does not listen to me." But Peter and his successors hold the keys.

 

For a good read on this subject, I highly recommend, "Jesus, Peter, and the Keys"

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Peter-Keys-Scriptural-Handbook/dp/1882972546

 

hth,

Kim

 

You are correct.

 

I really shouldn't type while tired.

 

Or after wine...

 

My brain was thinking RCC, and I was trying to distinguish it from the Orthodox/Mainstream split, and... eh. I'm not the theologian, my mom is.

 

 

a

[noashmam]

You are correct.

 

I really shouldn't type while tired.

 

Or after wine...

 

My brain was thinking RCC, and I was trying to distinguish it from the Orthodox/Mainstream split, and... eh. I'm not the theologian, my mom is.

 

 

a

 

 

That's what I thought you meant. Thanks, Asta. :)

[PineFarmMom]

errm....

 

technically, the Church is not the belief in someone's idea of a specific set of Believers, but in ALL people who profess Christ as savior.

 

but i do understand that y'all disagree :)

 

Yep! :) That's what "church" actually does refer to: all those who are actual followers of Christ Jesus. It isn't one specific group, but people from many denominations.

[milovany]

Yep! That's what "church" actually does refer to: all those who are actual followers of Christ Jesus. It isn't one specific group, but people from many denominations.

 

I used to think this too. ;) ... i.e., that there's no visible church, just an invisible one. But taking a serious, honest look at church history convinced me otherwise.

[PineFarmMom]

I used to think this too. ;) ... i.e., that there's no visible church, just an invisible one. But taking a serious, honest look at church history convinced me otherwise.

 

I'd find a serious look at the Bible more convincing.

[Peek a Boo]

I used to think this too. ;) ... i.e., that there's no visible church, just an invisible one. But taking a serious, honest look at church history convinced me otherwise.

 

the people ARE plenty visible ;)

 

honestly and seriously. :D

[asta]

errm....

 

technically, the Church is not the belief in someone's idea of a specific set of Believers, but in ALL people who profess Christ as savior.

 

but i do understand that y'all disagree :)

 

There are specific definitions in the Catholic Church.

 

Small "c" church means the populi, the millions of people throughout the world who hold to the tenets of Catholicism (or whom the Church believes are their brethren, whether or not they are currently "within the fold").

 

Big "C" Church means the Mother Ship - the Holy See - the Vatican - Rome.

 

I realize it sounds nit-picky, but it is just one of those weird Catholic semantic things.

 

 

a

[milovany]

I'd find a serious look at the Bible more convincing.

 

Of course, both. They're not mutually exclusive. Having been a born-again, spirit-filled, charismatic, evangelical, active-in-ministry protestant for 23 years, I had looked at the Bible much. But what did happen in the church plays a role, too, since I don't believe the church ever fell away (the gates of hell has never prevailed against it). I know not everyone agrees (!), but history, faith, the writings of the church fathers, Holy Tradition, etc. AND the Scripture, all point to "one holy catholic and apostolic" (visible) church. I never thought I'd say that. I didn't know ANYTHING about Roman Catholicism or eastern Orthodoxy beyond the fact that they were different from Protestantism. I didn't know there were writings from people who lived at the time of the apostles and the 1-3 centuries following, writings that described in detail how the church functioned. I didn't know there had been one united church for 1000 years. That's a long time with no denominations (one of the main things about my Christian experience to that date that had always bothered me), so I guess I asked, "Well, what happened to that church?" And off we went on our journey into the Orthodox church .............

 

Again, I know you don't agree, I'm not trying to argue. I'm humbly just sharing the story I know, the path the Lord has led our family on into the ancient church.

 

May you enjoy a blessed nativity feast! Here's a gift for you: an

(Byzantine hymn of the Nativity).

 

:)

Edited December 15, 2009 by milovaný

[Peek a Boo]

There are specific definitions in the Catholic Church.

 

Small "c" church means the populi, the millions of people throughout the world who hold to the tenets of Catholicism (or whom the Church believes are their brethren, whether or not they are currently "within the fold").

 

Big "C" Church means the Mother Ship - the Holy See - the Vatican - Rome.

 

I realize it sounds nit-picky, but it is just one of those weird Catholic semantic things.

 

I understand how the Roman Catholic Church views the capitalization of the word, I just disagree that the Roman Church has a monopoly on how the word CHURCH is used/capitalized.

 

but for the most part, I'm really trying to stay out of this thread since it's mostly about how Catholics view Mary, not how I view her. ;) But it is a very informative thread and one that is hard to resist at least lurking...... :)

[PineFarmMom]

 

Again, I know you don't agree, I'm not trying to argue. I'm humbly just sharing the story I know, the path the Lord has led our family on into the ancient church.

 

May you enjoy a blessed nativity feast! Here's a gift for you: an

(Byzantine hymn of the Nativity).

 

:)

 

And it was good information!! :) Thanks!

Edited December 15, 2009 by Texas T

[PineFarmMom]

I understand how the Roman Catholic Church views the capitalization of the word, I just disagree that the Roman Church has a monopoly on how the word CHURCH is used/capitalized.

 

but for the most part, I'm really trying to stay out of this thread since it's mostly about how Catholics view Mary, not how I view her. ;) But it is a very informative thread and one that is hard to resist at least lurking...... :)

 

True. I've jumped in as well, and I do agree...it's not really about my non-Catholic opinion, but rather what Catholics believe. It has been informative, though.