S/O from k-8 thread-can you be Baptist and Reformed too?

[HappyGrace]

On the Landmark thread on K-8, it seemed like if the curriculum is Baptist, it is Arminian too. I'm newly Baptist (General Conference) in my church-we were coming from non-denominational-AND newly Reformed in my theology, but I don't know much about doctrine, theology, etc. I haven't heard anything ANTI-Reformed in my church so far, and it's been a year. There are friends in our church that I know are Reformed. Maybe because it's General Conference, things are "looser" than regular Baptist? Our church seems more toward a non-denominational, but more conservative.

 

Is there a website for laymen that describes doctrinal type differences amongst churches/theology in a very basic and broken down way? I feel so ignorant of this type of thing and I'd like to understand it more.

Edited November 15, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Ellie]

On the Landmark thread on K-8, it seemed like if the curriculum is Baptist, it is Arminian too. I'm newly Baptist (General Conference) in my church-we were coming from non-denominational-AND newly Reformed in my theology, but I don't know much about doctrine, theology, etc. I haven't heard anything ANTI-Reformed in my church so far, and it's been a year. There are friends in our church that I know are Reformed. Maybe because it's General Conference, things are "looser" than regular Baptist? Our church seems more toward a non-denominational, but more conservative.

 

Is there a website for laymen that describes doctrinal type differences amongst churches/theology in a very basic and broken down way?

Are you *Southern* Baptist?? What is "regular" Baptist? American? Independent? What??

 

FYI, there is a Reformed Baptist denomination. It's Reformed *Baptist* because they believe in believer's baptism instead of infant baptism, which Reformed doctrine generally teaches.

[HappyGrace]

All I know is that our church is General Conference. We do Believer's Baptism rather than infant, but it is not called a Reformed Baptist Church. I guess you answered my question though-that there are Reformed Baptists!

 

I guess when I say "regular" Baptist I am probably thinking of the more strict Southern Baptist.

[Irene Lynn]

Yes. There are Baptist churches that are more reformed than Arminian and there are Reformed Baptist churches that are similar to Reformed Presbyterian, though they are different in regards to the baptism part.

[Daisy]

Yes, you can be Reformed and Baptist, too.

 

However, you cannot be Arminian and Reformed, too.

 

The HUGE difference is the Arminian vs. Calvinist issue.

 

So a Baptist curriculum that teaches Arminianism doesn't usually go over well with a Reformed Christian.

[HappyGrace]

Yes, thank you, at least I do know the diff between Arminian and Reformed-that they're basically opposite. I was always Arminian-had NO idea there was even any other way to be-until a big thread about a year ago (or less) on here about that, which sent me digging and digging in my Bible and praying about it...... and came out the other side of it Reformed!

 

I haven't seen anything at our church that would go against Reformed theology.

[momtoboys]

This probably won't help at all, but we are members of a Baptist church, however, I would consider us non-denominational in doctrine and theology.

 

I believe what the Bible says. ;) . . Other than that, I don't think denominations existed in the early church, but are primarily man-made.

 

I grew up "Baptist" so am familiar with the different varieties. There is GARBC, Southern, Independent fundamental Baptist (a whole range right there), etc. . .

[i.love.lucy]

Our new church is part of the Southern Baptist convention, but calls itself Reformed Baptist, or more closely "Calvinist" in theology. That's why we moved there - awesome expository teaching and preaching, and some of the most theologically knowledgeable people I have ever met. It's been so exciting for us to move to this church and feel like we are in a period of strong growth in our understanding of theology.

 

It's very funny you asked because my dh and I are new to the Dark Side and I am studying all I can. I do understand doctrines of grace, but what I want to now understand is "What is dispensationalism?" What do I believe? And also I'd like to embark on a good eschatology study. I recently even pm'd Kathleen in VA to ask about resources and we decided I should talk to my pastor - very good advice!

 

Maybe some more Dark Siders will chime in for resources. We love John MacArthur, and I am just starting a book by Michael Horton called "Putting the Amazing Back into Grace" but I think he might have a different set of beliefs than I do, not sure yet - but that's the cool thing, I can read and it helps me iron out what I believe by heading to my Bible!

 

:bigear:

[momtoboys]

There is actually a "reformed Baptist" denomination (I had a very good friend in college whose father was a pastor in that denomination).

 

In the end, I don't think we will ever definitively truly know the answers to some issues of doctrine. For example, I believe Christ will come and set up His kingdom. How exactly that happens? Well, the Bible is not 100% clear, IMO, and we are remiss to interpret it in a way that suits our preconceived or pretaught notions.

 

As for Calvinism vs. free-will, I think they meet somewhere in the middle. And we'll never totally understand the combination of God's sovereign grace combined w/ man's will. But. . .we know that both exist to an extent.

[HappyGrace]

momtoboys-I'm with you on that---"I believe what the Bible says." That sums it up for me too!

 

i.love.lucy-When I first became Reformed, John Piper's resources were recommended to me by Dark Siders on this board. He is GREAT! His blog is called "Desiring God" and he has books too. Great sermons. You can download his amazing exposition on Romans to mp3 too.

[i.love.lucy]

Yep, I've read and listened to a bunch of Piper, and he's my pastor's favorite teacher/preacher/theologian. I don't always find his sermons easily understandable. Maybe I'm too distracted or something. I also DO NOT like his endorsement of Mark Driscoll (emergent guy) but that's a whole other thing (not stirring the pot). I understand Piper has a fantastic study of the Book of Revelation that I'd like to listen to - too many sermons, too little time! As a matter of fact, if you haven't read it, the Desiring God website has a wonderful article called "What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism: TULIP" that has helped me begin to understand all this more.:)

[Heather in Neverland]

Yes there are churches who call themselves reformed baptists. As I understand it, it is an issue with the term "reformed". Some use it to mean that they are calvinists (which is what many churches mean when they call themselves reformed baptists). But "reformed" actually has a larger meaning than just the 5 points of calvinism and encompasses infant baptism and eschatology (most reformed people consider themselves post-mill or a-mill) as well as following covenant theology. The reformed baptist church I went to was calvinist but not "truly" reformed in that they were also dispensational, pre-mil, and followed believer's baptism.

 

Clear as mud? :D

[Brenda in FL]

The reformed baptist church I went to was calvinist but not "truly" reformed in that they were also dispensational, pre-mil, and followed believer's baptism.

 

Clear as mud? :D

 

This is one of the difficulties we have in finding reformed credo-baptist congregations. So many of the pastors come form John MacArthur's seminary (Masters?) and dispensational and pre-mil play an important role in their statement of faith. I wish there was a denomination that practiced credo-baptism and covenant theology a la PCA. :)

[HappyGrace]

See, now you're losing me with all the terminology! :confused:

[Kathleen in VA]

Just got home from a cookout/hayride and saw this thread.:)

 

I think it can be confusing calling Baptists "reformed." The terminology basically gets assigned to credo-baptists who believe in the Doctrines of Grace and are not Arminian.

 

Our church believes in the Doctrines of Grace but not much else of what Calvin taught.

 

A major distinction between Baptists and other reformed denominations has to do with the term reformed. Technically, it means re-formed or formed again. This may seem a little nit-picky, but as Baptists, we do not think the true church ever needed to be formed again. Christ said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The early church were Baptists - that is they practiced believer's baptism. The logic then follows that the true church, which practiced believer's baptism never ceased to exist. It may have been persecuted and gone into hiding, but it never ceased to exist.

 

Baptists do not go along with the notion that the Catholic church was ever the true church and that at some point in time - around the 16th century - needed to be re-formed. It just never was the church.

 

A key point in this is that up to the time of Christ, every society was a sacral society. That is, all the individuals that made up that society worshiped a common god, or in the case of the Israelites - the true God. After Christ came, there was no need for a sacral society. Christ wanted Christians to go out into all the world as salt and light, preaching the gospel. He wanted them to be salt and light where ever they were.

 

The Catholic Church tried to build a sacral society and Calvin attempted to build a sacral society in Geneva.

 

The only truly Christian sacral society will be the New Jerusalem. Jesus said his Kingdom is not of this world. He is preparing a place for us in heaven. We are pilgrims on this earth, citizens of heaven, and commanded to preach the gospel to every corner of the earth. We are not to try to build a government run by Christians (not that having Christians in places of authority is wrong - just not the goal).

 

Baptists believe that Christ's church has existed from the time of the New Testament - there has always been at least a remnant of true believers and there was never a need to reform that true church.

 

A couple of good books to read on this topic are Are Baptists Reformed by Kenneth Good and The Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin.

[i.love.lucy]

This is one of the difficulties we have in finding reformed credo-baptist congregations. So many of the pastors come form John MacArthur's seminary (Masters?) and dispensational and pre-mil play an important role in their statement of faith. I wish there was a denomination that practiced credo-baptism and covenant theology a la PCA. :)

Do you mean that they would be *willing* to do believer's baptism in addition to infant? Because unless I am confused (which is quite possible!:tongue_smilie:) I wouldn't think those two would blend. Isn't paedobaptism part of the covenant?

 

I really am pretty confused by this part of the theology discussion. I found an article online tonight and had to take notes so that I could condense it into language I understand, and still have so much more reading and study to do with this one paper! It will take some serious study me thinks.

 

 

ETA: Kathleen, you chimed in just as I was typing! I had hoped you would see this thread and share your thoughts. I will check those books out!! Thanks!

Edited November 15, 2009 by i.love.lucy

[petepie2]

This is one of the difficulties we have in finding reformed credo-baptist congregations. So many of the pastors come form John MacArthur's seminary (Masters?) and dispensational and pre-mil play an important role in their statement of faith. I wish there was a denomination that practiced credo-baptism and covenant theology a la PCA. :)

 

I'm pretty sure the reformed Baptist church in our town is not dispensational. Here's a link for finding 'reformed baptist' churches. I'm sure some are dispensational and others are not.

[Jami]

This is Baptist history looking back to Anabaptist roots. If you look at the Baptist history through England, 1689 Confession, later Spurgeon, there is less of the emphasis on pre-Catholic church = the true church.

 

http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm

 

The Wiki is helpful too...

scroll down to Origins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist

 

 

 

Just got home from a cookout/hayride and saw this thread.:)

 

I think it can be confusing calling Baptists "reformed." The terminology basically gets assigned to credo-baptists who believe in the Doctrines of Grace and are not Arminian.

 

Our church believes in the Doctrines of Grace but not much else of what Calvin taught.

 

A major distinction between Baptists and other reformed denominations has to do with the term reformed. Technically, it means re-formed or formed again. This may seem a little nit-picky, but as Baptists, we do not think the true church ever needed to be formed again. Christ said he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The early church were Baptists - that is they practiced believer's baptism. The logic then follows that the true church, which practiced believer's baptism never ceased to exist. It may have been persecuted and gone into hiding, but it never ceased to exist.

 

Baptists do not go along with the notion that the Catholic church was ever the true church and that at some point in time - around the 16th century - needed to be re-formed. It just never was the church.

 

A key point in this is that up to the time of Christ, every society was a sacral society. That is, all the individuals that made up that society worshiped a common god, or in the case of the Israelites - the true God. After Christ came, there was no need for a sacral society. Christ wanted Christians to go out into all the world as salt and light, preaching the gospel. He wanted them to be salt and light where ever they were.

 

The Catholic Church tried to build a sacral society and Calvin attempted to build a sacral society in Geneva.

 

The only truly Christian sacral society will be the New Jerusalem. Jesus said his Kingdom is not of this world. He is preparing a place for us in heaven. We are pilgrims on this earth, citizens of heaven, and commanded to preach the gospel to every corner of the earth. We are not to try to build a government run by Christians (not that having Christians in places of authority is wrong - just not the goal).

 

Baptists believe that Christ's church has existed from the time of the New Testament - there has always been at least a remnant of true believers and there was never a need to reform that true church.

 

A couple of good books to read on this topic are Are Baptists Reformed by Kenneth Good and The Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Jami

[Daisy]

What is Reformed Theology? by R.C. Sproul is a great book for anyone interested in an understandable introduction.

[Brenda in FL]

Do you mean that they would be *willing* to do believer's baptism in addition to infant? Because unless I am confused (which is quite possible!:tongue_smilie:) I wouldn't think those two would blend. Isn't paedobaptism part of the covenant?

 

 

Oops - I should have said covenant theology minus paedo-baptism. I guess technically it wouldn't be covenant theology :tongue_smilie:.

[Brenda in FL]

I'm pretty sure the reformed Baptist church in our town is not dispensational. Here's a link for finding 'reformed baptist' churches. I'm sure some are dispensational and others are not.

 

Thanks - still it varies by church. The church we are attending now in Florida is on the list and is dispensational, yet the church we attended in GA also on the list was not dispensational!

 

Oh well - I know better than expect to find the perfect church.

[staceyobu]

Yes there are churches who call themselves reformed baptists. As I understand it, it is an issue with the term "reformed". Some use it to mean that they are calvinists (which is what many churches mean when they call themselves reformed baptists). But "reformed" actually has a larger meaning than just the 5 points of calvinism and encompasses infant baptism and eschatology (most reformed people consider themselves post-mill or a-mill) as well as following covenant theology. The reformed baptist church I went to was calvinist but not "truly" reformed in that they were also dispensational, pre-mil, and followed believer's baptism.

 

Clear as mud? :D

 

Yep... I agree with you. I've read that the more correct term for a "reformed baptist" might be a "calvinistic baptist". They believe in predestination and the sovereignty of God. A truly reformed church holds to covenant theology, a-mill eschatology, and infant baptism.