Let's talk legalism...anyone? Or should I duck and hide...

[Tea Time]

Do you agree with this statement by C.S. Lewis?

 

 

Yes, but "good" only by our rather low, human, limited standards. As I said before, this is not the "good" that God has intended for us to be like which will far exceed our best efforts when His work in us is complete.

 

If we believe in justice, and we believe in personal accountability, and assuming were are to be judged for the lives we've lead and the actions we've taken (or failed to take) by a fair-judge, why should we want an exemption?

 

 

Thinly veiled, I think what you are really saying here is that you think you have been good enough, and you are really demanding that the judge be reasonable with you, according to your own system of thought, and if He condemns you, then it proves He really isn't just.

 

 

How would it be ethical to behave badly in this world, but to expect a "get out of jail free" pass based on "faith". If true faith is so transformative, then I'd think a true believer would demand their life be judged in the same fashion those not given a free-pass. Any other option, to my mind would be an "easy out", and would make a mockery of justice.

 

A "true believer" would not demand anything. A true believer would recognize that they will be judged by their creator, and the He will be metting out the consequences as He sees fit. He made us, not the other way around.

 

But this gives me an idea of why, maybe, some people, maybe you, feel so resentful toward Christians. Do you think that Christians have sought out a "get out of jail free card" in their faith in order to avoid the consequences of their sins?

 

It is not a mockery of justice to grant mercy to those that come to understand their errors (sins) and ask for forgiveness.

 

It is very telling the parts of my post you responded to and those you did not.

 

Honestly, Bill, I have yet to see any point you have addressed in any thread that is not easily taken up and answered by C.S. Lewis. Have you read him extensively? Surely you have. Please let me know because I will stop wasting my time if you have. If he can't reply to your doubts, then I certainly can't and have nothing more to offer you.

 

Then again, perhaps you just like the process of debate. That is fine, too. I admit, I like a lively discussion much in the same way I like spicy mustard or jalapenos. It hurts so good! :D And if someone else might be introduced to C.S. Lewis, then I have done my good works for the day and then some! :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

It is not a mockery of justice to grant mercy to those that come to understand their errors (sins) and ask for forgiveness.

Agreed. Of course.

 

It is a mockery of justice to grant mercy to those who purposely continue sin rather than repenting.

 

It is a mockery of justice to withhold mercy from those who have not come to understand their errors and thus are blameless for their ignorance.

 

It is not a mockery of justice to grant mercy to those who ask for forgiveness and repent, doing their utmost to change their ways.

[Spy Car]

Yes, but "good" only by our rather low, human, limited standards. As I said before, this is not the "good" that God has intended for us to be like which will far exceed our best efforts when His work in us is complete.

 

Can you point to people whose lives represent a "higher" standard of good?

 

Thinly veiled, I think what you are really saying here is that you think you have been good enough, and you are really demanding that the judge be reasonable with you, according to your own system of thought, and if He condemns you, then it proves He really isn't just.

 

That's quite a leap.

 

A "true believer" would not demand anything. A true believer would recognize that they will be judged by their creator, and the He will be metting out the consequences as He sees fit.

 

Then why do people go around claiming they are "saved"? Seems presumptuous.

 

He made us, not the other way around.

 

Or, perhaps like all the other stories of supernatural beings and creator-gods this one too is a product of human imagination.

 

But this gives me an idea of why, maybe, some people, maybe you, feel so resentful toward Christians. Do you think that Christians have sought out a "get out of jail free card" in their faith in order to avoid the consequences of their sins?

 

Not resentful.

 

It is not a mockery of justice to grant mercy to those that come to understand their errors (sins) and ask for forgiveness.

 

Justice can be tempered by mercy, when there is sincere repentance, and attempts to re-dress wrongs committed.

 

It is very telling the parts of my post you responded to and those you did not.

 

Well i didn't think responding to attacks on my imagination would be fruitful.

 

Honestly, Bill, I have yet to see any point you have addressed in any thread that is not easily taken up and answered by C.S. Lewis. Have you read him extensively? Surely you have.

 

I have not. My sole exposure to Lewis has been 3 books of the Narnia series that I pre-read to see if they might be suitable reading for my son.

 

Then again, perhaps you just like the process of debate. That is fine, too. I admit, I like a lively discussion much in the same way I like spicy mustard or jalapenos. It hurts so good! :D And if someone else might be introduced to C.S. Lewis, then I have done my good works for the day and then some! :lol:

 

On point one. I have a curious mind and have thought about some of these things (largely in isolation), so I enjoy being challenged to think and debate with people of intelligence who hold beliefs that differ from my own. So I guess I'll plead guilty to enjoying good-natured debate.

 

On point two. C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity is creeping up the list of my "must read" works, and maybe the Screwtape Letters (if the first goes well). And you've likely bumped Lewis a few notches (at least). So "good-works" for you (unofficially ;))

 

Bill

Edited October 17, 2009 by Spy Car

[Lovedtodeath]

Then why do people go around claiming they are "saved"? Seems presumptuous.

 

1 Corinthians 10:12 Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.

[Tea Time]

Can you point to people whose lives represent a "higher" standard of good?

 

Indeed! All day long! Read up on the lives of the saints. To be honest with you, I don't do it enough for the simple fact that it shames me to no end what they have managed while I often only sink in despair! But even that is not the full extent of what God has planned for us. It is nearly only kept as a shameful secret in this material driven world that our destiny is for eternity. Then, and only then, will we be what good creations were were fully meant to be. The Great Divorce by Lewis is an excellent tutorial to help you expand your idea of heaven and hell.

That's quite a leap.

 

Not such a leap. It is a very common argument against God, and if it is not hidden in your heart, it certainly is in most of us. But I was just suggesting, not accusing, and I mean it with a gentle spirit, one that knows from my own experience about such a tendency. Here I recommend the book from which I quoted. God in the Dock. You often take a tone in your posts that do indeed seem to place God on trial, so it is a fitting book for me to have quoted for you.

Then why do people go around claiming they are "saved"? Seems presumptuous.

 

Well, I won't completely argue with you there because I am Catholic, so.... I work out my own salvation in fear and trembling - believe me, NOTHING presumptuous about it! I suspect you would find the teachings of the Catholic Church, if you really knew them, to be more comprehensible to your intellect. Just an instinct I have about you.

Or, perhaps like all the other stories of supernatural beings and creator-gods this one too is a product of human imagination.

 

Perhaps. But my own belief is cogitor ero sum. If you do decide there is likely a God, then the next step is to consider the nature and character of that God. What you can't conclude is that "it" is going to be what you decide. That is inventing god, but has nothing to do with God. See the difference? Mere Christianity is the basic hashing out of this.

Justice can be tempered by mercy, when there is sincere repentance, and attempts to re-dress wrongs committed.

 

Here again my Catholic faith helps me out here, and I tend to agree with you. In Catholocism we have the sacrament of Confession. I find it helps me be far more accountable in my behavior. Also, Catholics have the concept of Purgatory. Very complex, so I will not get into it, but there is, to me, more focus on re-dress of wrongs committed in Catholic doctrine. But it IS a danger to think our own actions can "fix" ourselves and our sins. Deep water here, so that is far as I will take it.

Well i didn't think responding to attacks on my imagination would be fruitful.

I know, I know. I'm a meanie. But, please, attacks? Don't be a "whiner baby." You feel quite free to boldly state your presumptions about Christian thought, which can be offensive, so be prepared for the response. ;)

On point one. I have a curious mind and have thought about some of these things (largely in isolation), so I enjoy being challenged to think and debate with people of intelligence who hold beliefs that differ from my own. So I guess I'll plead guilty to enjoying good-natured debate.

 

On point two. C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity is creeping up the list of my "must read" works, and maybe the Screwtape Letters (if the first goes well). And you've likely bumped Lewis a few notches (at least). So "good-works" for you (unofficially ;))

Do you recall someone on this board recommending a book by Richard Feynman to you? That was me. Did you ever read it? You remind me of him, and also a friend of mine with whom I have very enjoyable talks.

 

There are really three things I will chronically recommend to people on this board or anyplace and they are C.S. Lewis, John Taylor Gatto, and Shurley Grammar. You can find the same wisdom in other places, but they sum things up and make things accessible in a brilliant manner. I can sound like someone who hasn't read anything else, but that is not true, it is just that Lewis sums things up better than anyone else!

 

After I read A LOT of Lewis, I found that I was able to go back to the original sources of much of his thought and wade through them as well. Reading Lewis is a kind of classical education in itself. He is a genius at making very difficult arguments understandable to ordinary folk like me. I also recommend G.K. Chesterton who was a major influence on Lewis. I recommend The Everlasting Man as an excellent work by Chesterton, and of course Orthodoxy is a must!

 

Mere Christianity is a good starting place, but I don't recommend Screwtape Letters as much for you as it is more to help shore up believers than as apologetics. The Problem of Pain would be essential for you. Among other amazing things, that has the most intruiging presentation of an intellectual approach to integrating evolution and Christian thought. I often want to discuss that with someone, but I have yet to find anyone who has read it and is interested in that discussion.

 

And then for the sheer joy of it, Till We have Faces is delicious if you want to see pagan mythology beautifully embraced with Christianity instead of as fearful enemy. LOVE IT most of all.

 

I really do think you need a crash course of Lewis. Don't fuss over any of this anymore until you have done that, okay? Then let's talk again! :tongue_smilie:

(I had a hard time with this post because I got logged out and had to redo it. Forgive me for the spaced out formatting and any weird errors I missed. I had issues with this and did the best I could! :001_huh:

[Spy Car]

Indeed! All day long! Read up on the lives of the saints.

 

We have a copy of Lives of the Saints (or at least a volume of it) around here somewhere. I read a several of these in the past and it seemed like all these good people came to very gruesome deaths, and it made me feel not well.

 

I know. They get their "eternal reward" if you believe...you know. Are you Catholic?

 

Not such a leap. It is a very common argument against God, and if it is not hidden in your heart, it certainly is in most of us. But I was just suggesting, not accusing, and I mean it with a gentle spirit, one that knows from my own experience about such a tendency.

 

I am certainly not a "saint" and have my short-comings. But I'm not afraid to take responsibility for the life I've led. That's all I was saying.

 

Here I recommend the book from which I quoted. God in the Dock. You often take a tone in your posts that do indeed seem to place God on trial, so it is a fitting book for me to have quoted for you.

 

I think it is a fair assessment to say I do (in some way) put God on trial. I try to understand the God presented in the Hebrew scriptures and he Christian texts (and in the Qur'an for that matter) and ask myself if this conception is of a "just" god, and one who deserves to be worshipped. I'll grant I don't come at this with the same approach as a worshipful believer, but (believe it or not) I don't come at it with enmity. Rather with an reasonably open mind and human-level critical thinking. And I understand some will think this is a very bad approach. But at least I'm honest.

 

And it does please me when I find things in the sacred texts that touch me. Or that seem "right" or inspiring. And yes I pick and choose what I like and what I don't like, and yes that annoys people, and yes a certain-someone (not you) will try to score with this, but what-ever.

 

I am Catholic, so.... I work out my own salvation in fear and trembling - believe me, NOTHING presumptuous about it!

 

I should have read all the way through. Catholic, yes. Well, when I try (in my best fashion) to understand the theology/theologies of the Christian faith there are times I'm drawn to the Protestant side on some things, but on issues of salvation, faith, the emphasis on works, I find my "inner-Catholic" comes out. I'm sure that sounds strange (and surely won't help your cause here ;)). Sorry!

 

I suspect you would find the teachings of the Catholic Church, if you really knew them, to be more comprehensible to your intellect. Just an instinct I have about you.

 

I really do need to learn to read ahead :D

 

On some matters yes. Others I think I'd choke on. No offense.

 

But my own belief is cogitor ero sum. If you do decide there is likely a God, then the next step is to consider the nature and character of that God. What you can't conclude is that "it" is going to be what you decide. That is inventing god, but has nothing to do with God. See the difference? Mere Christianity is the basic hashing out of this.

 

I guess I haven't gotten beyond feeling that it's bloody unlikely that there is a God (or gods). Yet, I do attempt (in my best fashion) to understand how people of various faiths (and multiple sub-faiths with-in those faiths) view God and what role religion plays in their lives. And not a religion I've made up to please myself. Granting than an "outsider" perspective is always somewhat limited.

 

But I have (and do) try to put myself into Catholic, Protestant (of various sorts), Sunni, Jewish (from Orthodox to Reform) "head-spaces" and attempt to see the world trough others eyes. Is it fully "authentic"? No. But I make a sincere effort to understand how other perceive God. More ammo I suppose?

 

And the purpose is to deepen my own moral sense, not to look for "flaws" in faith-systems. Although I don't leave my brain at the door.

 

Here again my Catholic faith helps me out here, and I tend to agree with you. In Catholocism we have the sacrament of Confession. I find it helps me be far more accountable in my behavior. Also, Catholics have the concept of Purgatory. Very complex, so I will not get into it, but there is, to me, more focus on re-dress of wrongs committed in Catholic doctrine. But it IS a danger to think our own actions can "fix" ourselves and our sins. Deep water here, so that is far as I will take it.

 

I'm fairly well acquainted with Catholic doctrine on Purgatory. And yes, (to me) it seems Catholics, like Jews, place more of an emphasis on the re-dress of wrongs. This speaks to my personal beliefs about how to live an ethical life.

 

I know, I know. I'm a meanie. But, please, attacks? Don't be a "whiner baby." You feel quite free to boldly state your presumptions about Christian thought, which can be offensive, so be prepared for the response. ;)

 

I was tempted to quote a song by John Lennon, but it didn't seem "imaginative." I'm sorry if my questions make you or anyone else want to hurt me, or worse if they feel hurt by me. I hope the discussing is worthwhile and thought provoking. If it is just annoying I'll stop.

 

Do you recall someone on this board recommending a book by Richard Feynman to you? That was me. Did you ever read it? You remind me of him, and also a friend of mine with whom I have very enjoyable talks.

 

Oh yes I did read the book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!. I absolutely loved it! And, while I won't begin to compare myself with Dr Feyman in terms of brain-power, there is a kindred spirit!

 

I laughed (and had thoughts provoked) all the way though that book. My sincere thanks for the recommendation. C.S. Lewis just got bumped higher on my list :D

 

There are really three things I will chronically recommend to people on this board or anyplace and they are C.S. Lewis, John Taylor Gatto, and Shurley Grammar.

 

With Lewis I think I know what I'm going to get. John Taylor Gatto I'll have to plead ignorance. But what is it about Shurley Grammar?

 

After I read A LOT of Lewis, I found that I was able to go back to the original sources of much of his thought and wade through them as well. Reading Lewis is a kind of classical education in itself. He is a genius at making very difficult arguments understandable to ordinary folk like me.

 

Honestly, I found Narnia kind of banal. And I'm acquainted (slightly) with the argument from Mere Christianity that one had to conclude Jesus was either divine or a lunatic, and I didn't find the argument persuasive. I've kind of dreaded taking Lewis on, truth told. But I guess I should.

 

I also recommend G.K. Chesterton who was a major influence on Lewis. I recommend The Everlasting Man as an excellent work by Chesterton, and of course Orthodoxy is a must!

 

I see his name in sigs. Haven't read him. Blank-slate.

 

Tonight I was going to start Martin Buber's Two Types of Faith exploring the philosophical dynamics of Christianity and Judaism. But I got sidetracked. :D

 

Mere Christianityis a good starting place, but I don't recommend Screwtape Letters[ as much for you as it is more to help shore up believers than as apologetics.

 

Being propped-up sounds a lot more fun than apologetics :tongue_smilie:

 

 

The Problem of Pain would be essential for you. Among other amazing things, that has the most intruiging presentation of an intellectual approach to integrating evolution and Christian thought. I often want to discuss that with someone, but I have yet to find anyone who has read it and is interested in that discussion.

 

This sound intriguing.

 

And then for the sheer joy of it, Till We have Faces is delicious if you want to see pagan mythology beautifully embraced with Christianity instead of as fearful enemy. LOVE IT most of all.

 

I better bookmark this post.

 

I really do think you need a crash course of Lewis. Don't fuss over any of this anymore until you have done that, okay? Then let's talk again! :tongue_smilie:

 

OK.

 

(I had a hard time with this post because I got logged out and had to redo it. Forgive me for the spaced out formatting and any weird errors I missed. I had issues with this and did the best I could! :001_huh:

 

I lost a long reply one of your posts in the "database error" weirdness. So I better copy this as I'm about to hit "send".

[Spy Car]

1 Corinthians 10:12 Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.

 

I know it isn't your doctrine, but there is an countervailing idea (the fifth point of Calvinism) called "perseverance of the saints" that argues "once saved always saved". But discussion of that might open a can of worm. I'm sure it's complicated and beyond my understanding :D

 

Bill

[TXMomof4]

 

How would it be ethical to behave badly in this world, but to expect a "get out of jail free" pass based on "faith". If true faith is so transformative, then I'd think a true believer would demand their life be judged in the same fashion those not given a free-pass. Any other option, to my mind would be an "easy out", and would make a mockery of justice.

 

Bill

 

I don't believe someone with true faith would behave badly with the expectation of a free pass. I'm sure there are people who believe that, but I don't know any of them.

 

I don't want to be judged based on my own actions because no matter how many "good" things I do, I'll always be doing selfish, self-serving things as well. The balance will never be in my favor no matter how hard I try.

 

Now, I think I'm a pretty 'good' person by the world's standards. But there's a whole heck of a lot that could use some work by God's standards. So, I'll keep working on God's standards because they are beautiful. The ideal is breathtaking and awe-inspiring. Being a good person just doesn't compare.

[TXMomof4]

 

 

I have not. My sole exposure to Lewis has been 3 books of the Narnia series that I pre-read to see if they might be suitable reading for my son.

 

 

 

On point one. I have a curious mind and have thought about some of these things (largely in isolation), so I enjoy being challenged to think and debate with people of intelligence who hold beliefs that differ from my own. So I guess I'll plead guilty to enjoying good-natured debate.

 

On point two. C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity is creeping up the list of my "must read" works, and maybe the Screwtape Letters (if the first goes well). And you've likely bumped Lewis a few notches (at least). So "good-works" for you (unofficially ;))

 

Bill

 

Mere Christianity is challenging - but well worth the effort. Suprised by Joy is another one to add to your list. I can't say enough good things about it. Screwtape Letters is great also but I like others much better.

 

Actually - just go ahead and get to whole C.S. Lewis library on your reading list......he really is amazing.

[Lovedtodeath]

I know it isn't your doctrine, but there is an countervailing idea (the fifth point of Calvinism) called "perseverance of the saints" that argues "once saved always saved". But discussion of that might open a can of worm. I'm sure it's complicated and beyond my understanding :D

 

I am well aware of what different sects of Christianity believe. It irritates me to no end that I repeatedly see you use doctrines to point out faults in the Bible or with God, most often using the very doctrines that make no sense to many people and that I know are not supported by the scriptures.

 

And the truth is important enough to me that I must point that out even though I am sure there will be some negative repercussions.

[Greta]

Honestly, I found Narnia kind of banal. And I'm acquainted (slightly) with the argument from Mere Christianity that one had to conclude Jesus was either divine or a lunatic, and I didn't find the argument persuasive. I've kind of dreaded taking Lewis on, truth told. But I guess I should.

 

I've been enjoying reading your conversation, very thought provoking. And I couldn't resist jumping in on this part. I, too, found Narnia banal (could not force myself to get past the second book :ack2:), and for that reason avoided reading any other Lewis for the longest time. I had heard about his trilemma from others, found it pitifully unconvincing, and so that furthered my resistance. Finally, after having Mere Christianity recommended to me by three different people within the space of a week (I tend to take note of things when they occur in threes -- like someone is trying to tell me somthing!), I decided to give in and read it. I am finding it far, far better than I ever would have imagined. I realize, given the very low expectations that I just expressed, that isn't saying a whole lot! :lol: But, really, I think you might be pleasantly surprised as well. The trilemma is a much smaller part of the book than what I imagined (meaning there is so much more to the book than that), and is also better presented than the re-caps I had heard. It's definitely worth a read.

[Tea Time]

We have a copy of Lives of the Saints (or at least a volume of it) around here somewhere. I read a several of these in the past and it seemed like all these good people came to very gruesome deaths, and it made me feel not well.

Yes. Real Church history and Scripture is not consistent with the modern ideas of "prosperity gospel." It is profoundly troublesome that people think being a "good" Christian will mean being happy and successful by worldly standards in this life. Moses came to free the slaves from an outside tyranny to live a better life in this world. Christ came to free people from the slavery of sin to live in eternity. Who do you think has a more popular message?

Oh yes I did read the book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!. I absolutely loved it! And, while I won't begin to compare myself with Dr Feyman in terms of brain-power, there is a kindred spirit!

I knew it! And what a coincidence that so long ago I would gain credibility in your view by recommending a book, and now here I am recommending an author. Providential, some might say! ;)

With Lewis I think I know what I'm going to get. John Taylor Gatto I'll have to plead ignorance. But what is it about Shurley Grammar?

All of these things have this in common. They take ideas that are not original, but are brilliant, and they synthesize them, summarize them, and make them accessible to the lay reader. What they teach is available in all manner of other sources and methods, but these folks pull it together and make it "easy." IMO, anyway!

 

You should become familiar with Gatto's work, too, if you are in any way associated and serious about education.

Honestly, I found Narnia kind of banal.

Really to be honest, his fiction is my least favorite (except Till We have Faces) of his writings. And I am not particularly fond of fiction in general. But once you have read his other works, they do become richer as you see how his concepts of space/time and other ideas are woven into the stories (like in the Space Trilogy series). His dear friend, Tolkien, was a far more gifted story teller, IMO. Tolkien was also thoroughly Catholic, and so was Chesterton, eventually. Chesterton is much harder to read and understand than Lewis, so he is better to read after Lewis. Together, for me, they form the bulwark of why a person can be profoundly rational and intellectual and still a person of faith. I greatly admire these classically trained thinkers!

 

Don't forget The Great Divorce. It is a very quick read.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Tea Time
To add another book suggestion!

[Greta]

His dear friend, Tolkien, was a far more gifted story teller, IMO.

 

And this is probably a big part of why I couldn't take Narnia: I attempted it right after reading The Lord of the Rings. Anything that I read right after that was doomed to feel like a puppet show by comparison.

 

Chesterton is much harder to read and understand than Lewis, so he is better to read after Lewis. Together, for me, they form the bulwark of why a person can be profoundly rational and intellectual and still a person of faith. I greatly admire these classically trained thinkers!

 

This is good to know. I'll put Chesterton on my list too.

[Peek a Boo]

Peek, my point was that James 12:15 clearly states that a person who does not return shopping carts belongs to the realms below. :D

 

 

:lol:

 

i'm doooomed!

[Tea Time]

On some matters yes. Others I think I'd choke on. No offense.

Talking about the Catholic Church, here. I did want to take up this one thing that I did not include before. Too off track really, but I wanted to mention this.

 

I did not say that you would "like" Catholic doctrine. I said you would find it more "comprehensible" (You, not necessarily everyone). Big difference! We ALL CHOKE ON many things the Catholic Church teaches (Christianity in general). Some people flat out reject things and flagrantly live in opposition to them. In fact we all do at some point, whether intentionally or not. No wonder, really. She is a hard task master who sets the bar very high. But she is also a patient mother who lovingly waits for us to understand. Which is exactly what a good parent ought to do. :)

 

In my opinion, it took her a long time to learn how to do this as she made many mistakes on the path throughout history, trying to force, trying to push and punish at times. But people make up The Church, and the Holy Spirit led them. If it was where is needed to be from the very beginning, then it would not need to be led by the Holy Spirit through time. Patience and perserverence are the biggest lesson The Church teaches (and has learned). Well, and humility. :tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I did not say that you would "like" Catholic doctrine. I said you would find it more "comprehensible"

 

I was nodding my head when I read this. It seems that most of the incomprehensible things that Bill brings up are Protestant teachings. Then there are some that are in most Christian religions, but not mine. Then there are one or two that Bill makes seem confusing to me too. :D (Like the Genesis account, I really need to look that up.)

[Tea Time]

Then there are one or two that Bill makes seem confusing to me too. :D (Like the Genesis account, I really need to look that up.)

 

I guess you could say he is doing you a service, right? Keeping you on your toes and your head in Scripture! Maybe that is his "good work" and he doesn't even know it! Hehe! :001_smile:

[2squared]

Thank you to everyone, and especially Bill, for this discussion. I needed to read a serious discussion with both points of view.

[Spy Car]

I don't believe someone with true faith would behave badly with the expectation of a free pass. I'm sure there are people who believe that, but I don't know any of them.

 

I don't want to be judged based on my own actions because no matter how many "good" things I do, I'll always be doing selfish, self-serving things as well. The balance will never be in my favor no matter how hard I try.

 

Now, I think I'm a pretty 'good' person by the world's standards. But there's a whole heck of a lot that could use some work by God's standards. So, I'll keep working on God's standards because they are beautiful. The ideal is breathtaking and awe-inspiring. Being a good person just doesn't compare.

 

Mere Christianity is challenging - but well worth the effort. Suprised by Joy is another one to add to your list. I can't say enough good things about it. Screwtape Letters is great also but I like others much better.

 

Actually - just go ahead and get to whole C.S. Lewis library on your reading list......he really is amazing.

 

I really do need to read Mere Christianity. Thank you for adding your input.

 

If your faith motivates you to aspire to higher standards, to me, that seems like a very positive thing. Beauty and awe-inspiriting ideals are vital things to appreciate. I hope your journey is blessed.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Thank you to everyone, and especially Bill, for this discussion. I needed to read a serious discussion with both points of view.

 

Thank you that is nice to hear :001_smile:

 

I guess you could say he is doing you a service, right? Keeping you on your toes and your head in Scripture! Maybe that is his "good work" and he doesn't even know it! Hehe! :001_smile:

 

 

I was kind of hoping :D

[sunshine]

:lol:

 

i'm doooomed!

 

Sharing a cell in hell!!

[mommyrooch]

From an outsider perspective both the quotation of Paul's and the points listed by Bill Baldwin seem like a false legalism of "by faith alone" that undermines the positive demand to do acts to human kindness and good deeds, absent which, "faith" is dead.

 

James said it better than me.

 

James 2:14-29 KJV

 

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

I love you Bill! ;) I was all set to post these very things and you already had it covered.

 

I personally believe that if a person is truly saved then they will do the works. Do works alone get you into heaven? No. But faith in the absense of works is dead. (See Bill's above post) True faith and an acceptance of God will cause a conviction upon ones heart to do works. At least this is what the Bible tells me.

 

Matthew 25: 31-46 NIV

 

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

 

Then the king will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

 

Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirstly and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?

 

The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.

 

Then he will say to those on his left. Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire perpared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

 

They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?

 

He will reply, I tell you truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

 

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

Isaiah 58:7-12 says virtually the same thing. James 1:22-27 mentions it.

 

Matthew 16:27

 

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

 

The Bible is filled with warnings against faith without works. As James said, James 2:17 "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

[mommyrooch]

Well, James is clear that saving faith will result in works, and that someone who claims to have faith but has no works, his faith is questionable. However, that still does not mean that a person's works *contribute* to his salvation. The works are a visible evidence that saving faith is present.

 

I'm not sure about this. Matthew 16:27 states "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

 

I agree wholeheartedly that faith is the key but I also believe that faith will be judged by ones works. Therefore works do "contribute" to salvation. They are what God has told us will be used to "judge" our faith. Without works our faith is dead so I would say that our works play a very large part in our ultimate salvation.

[mommyrooch]

But faith without works is dead. Correct?

 

And a "dead" faith seems (to me, no great expert) like it would not meet the conditions of "salvation" according to the Christian Bible. That's correct, right?

 

So good works and good deeds seem more bound up with salvation that you seem to be suggesting, from my understanding of things.

 

 

 

I see that. But these meet my definition of legalism being things actions that would not be judged to be "good" absent a divine being.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: From my understanding as well, good deeds without faith are "dirty rags" but faith without deeds is dead. This tells me that works alone is not enough but faith alone is not enough either because in the absense of the works the faith is dead. If faith is dead then it certainly doesn't meet the conditions of salvation.

 

I believe that you cannot have one without the other in order to be granted salvation. I believe that if you are truly "saved" you will have faith but you will also have works. You are not truly "saved" therefore will not inherit the kingdom of God unless you have both.

[mommyrooch]

Impish, you're funny!

 

I don't want to flog that poor horse, but what about our faith being what allows us into heaven (based on saving grace and Christ's atonement) and the works, again, evidence of faith and contingent on our reward in heaven? This is part of the picture that's being left out. Someone came close when she said that the works are ultimately about loving God, not really about loving people - that's a happy consequence.

 

Bill, I think you are very brave, and would be a dynamite follower of Christ, and would love to see you filled with the Holy Spirit, because then a lot of your questions would make sense. Scripture is our love letter from a holy, outside-of-the-time/space-continuum God. It gets back to the eternity thing, if you want the long view, and that's pretty profound. Life does have to change radically for those giving over to the life found "in" Christ. It is a live and philosophy of BALANCE, but balance as set out in God's standard of everything. The goal is Jesus. To know Him and to be known, as someone once said.

 

I appreciate the passion expressed in the posts. Thanks for letting me join in.

blessings,

Nancy.

 

:iagree: To me it seems pretty clear but that is just me. When the Bible says to love my neighbor as myself I take that to heart. What I believe most people do not understand is the "true" definition of love. Love is not some cozy feel good word we hear about in books.

 

love=sacrifice. Plain and simple. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

 

This is not warm and fuzzy. It is heartbreaking. He loved us so much that he was willing to sacrifice his son so that we may be saved. Our calling as children of Christ is to "sacrifice" of ourselves for others while we are here on this earth. The ultimate example of this was Christ's sacrifice for us. Christ clearly tells us what is required of us in Matthew 16:24-28

 

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

 

This scripture speaks of sacrifice. We are deny ourselves, pick up our crosses (be willing to sacrifice as Christ sacrificed, even if that means death) and follow him.

 

Matthew 7:21-23 is probably the scripture that truly made me believe that I must not only profess my belief and faith in God but I must also "do" the will of God. It actually scared the snot out of me to be honest.

 

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.

 

It is not enough for me just to say I have faith in him. I must live my life as he instructs and he clearly instructs me to show my faith with my works so that is what I will do. I must "sacrifice" of myself for his kingdom.

 

The above scripture leaves me shaking in the knees because me thinks me has a lot of work to do. :tongue_smilie: I know that many people who truly believe they are saved will not inherit the kingdom of God. I certainly don't want to be one of those.

[mommyrooch]

Well, a person truly convicted in their faith wouldn't 'behave badly', counting on a 'get out of jail free pass'.

 

The reality is, NOBODY is perfect. We are all sinners, as much as we may strive to be otherwise. God, in His perfect wisdom knows this, and sent His Son to pay for our sins.

 

You know this, Bill. Its already been explained to you. Its far too integral a concept of the Christian faith for you NOT to know this, and stupid you aren't. I honestly don't get why you participate in such discussions, other than you simply enjoy the idea of getting things heated and the ensuing intellectual challenge in the debate.

 

As for me, I'm outta here. The whole singing pig issue. Round and round and round it will go. I'm already bored of the chorus. Someone will answer, you'll pick it apart, slant it, come at it from another angle, and round it goes, time and again.

 

Have fun though. :001_smile:

 

 

I disagree. :tongue_smilie: I am a Christian and I think I have agreed with probably 99% of what Bill has said on this topic. I'm not tired of the chorus because I don't think it's sang near enough. ;) I also don't see Bill as picking anything apart. That implies that others are right and he is wrong. He is adding an element into the debate that makes many people uncomfortable and makes others plain angry. That doesn't mean he's wrong. Just not popular. :D

 

I'm with you Bill. And I'm a Christian. Imagine a Christian and a non Christian arguing the same debate. There's hope for this world yet. ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

It is not enough for me just to say I have faith in him. I must live my life as he instructs and he clearly instructs me to show my faith with my works so that is what I will do. I must "sacrifice" of myself for his kingdom.

 

The above scripture leaves me shaking in the knees because me thinks me has a lot of work to do. :tongue_smilie: I know that many people who truly believe they are saved will not inherit the kingdom of God. I certainly don't want to be one of those.

Great post.

 

Matthew 16:27

 

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

 

The Bible is filled with warnings against faith without works. As James said, James 2:17 "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Thank you for the scriptures.