old

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[OHGrandma]

:lurk5:

My just turned 10 yr old still reverses letters, terrible speller, etc; but he reads 5-6 years above his grade level. I have noticed that when he reads out loud he will also skip a word or two, realize what he just read seems out of context with the rest of the paragraph and go back on his own to pick up the word.

[Perry]

Yes.

 

My oldest dd had some trouble learning to read the ps way, but once we started a good phonics program she did fine. She's an excellent, but somewhat slow reader.

 

She struggles terribly with spelling and writing. She was informally diagnosed as having a language based learning disability WRT written expression. There is a strong family history of dyslexia on my dh's side, and my son is dyslexic. I guess it's not officially "dyslexia", but it's related.

[Jan in SC]

Wow! I think my son must be his twin!

 

My son reads very well. (At least I thought so!) He actually recognizes words very well and has an amazing memory. He cannot decode and simply guesses correctly. His reading comprehension is wonderful.

 

Handwriting and spelling....aah!!!! His handwriting is horrible. His ability to put a thought on paper is ...well it doesn't exist. His spelling is about kindergarten level. (He is 9.)

 

We just finished a summer of comprehensive testing.

He has..

 

Dsygraphia- OT will help with this, early typing

 

Developmental Disorder of Written Expression -graphic organizers, narration, copy work to learn patterns, spelling program(possibly O/G)

 

He will also receive additional help for executive function skills and decoding.

 

He has a few other things going on, but these might apply to your son.

 

Good luck!

 

PS- My son is an almost 3rd grader that I thought was reading great. (His tested reading level was 6th-7th.)

Edited August 11, 2009 by Jan in SC

[EKS]

Yes. Google "stealth dyslexia."

[siloam]

My 9yo ds has a terrible time with spelling and handwriting. He scored in the 20th percentile for Spelling and his handwriting is like a 4yo's. However, he has no trouble reading (though he's a bit on the slow side). When I question him about what he's read, there is a high level of both literal recall and inductive thinking. Sooo, he's NOT faking it there. He is currently working through the BJU 4th grade reader (his grade level) with seemingly no problems.

 

We have had an initial meeting with an educational specialist and are waiting on a call back for WIAT-II testing and an OT screening. In the mean time, I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about what we may be facing. I have already started remediating spelling wiht AAS. Would it be worth my time to invest in O/G training if we are not having the reading problems? What about the whole Spalding thing?

 

I am really at a bit of a loss, since it seems that ds may be dyslexic but without the classic reading problems. He does, however, flip letters and numbers (B's become D's, 9's are P's, etc) seemingly at random. :confused: I want to learn as much as I can and quickly, but am not really sure where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

AAS is o/g based spelling program, though not a full reading and phonics program as well. The big pieces missing is working with units so the child knows phonics chunks like -ont. The second is that schwa sounds are covered as a think to spell, or the schwa is taught as a sound option for the letter, or it is treated as a jail word (words that break the rules).

 

The difference between AAS and Spaulding is that AAS is incremental covering one rule or sound at a time where Spaulding will have a whole list of words, and no two will share the same rules. They purposly avoid grouping like sounds. Spaulding also doesn't use syllable rules. The child simply claps syllables.

 

I do think children can be dyslexic and read well. My oldest appears to be a pronominal reader, her comprehension is off the charts (usually close to 100%), but when you ask her to draw or trace a straight line she can't. She learned to read easily enough and was reading at a 3rd grade level by the end of 1st grade, so I quit having her read to me. She has continued to be a serious reader, reading whole books in an afternoon, but I have figured out she skims. Then just about a month ago I gave her a fluency test because I was giving it to the others, and what do you know. She skips words, exchanges him for he, the for a and such just like all the rest of us. :001_huh: I think some kids just have the ability to compensate better than others.

 

For my oldest I am not really doing anything. She spells well enough (she is doing AAS and will follow that up with SWR). For my 2nd dd I am doing Great Leaps Fluency program because like me she has to read every word, correctly. It slows us both down a lot because when we make dyslexic errors we don't skim over them like my oldest we go back and re-read it. My 2nd dd I am looking at a full o/g program but she is going into 3rd having worked on phonics for 4 years and while she can read on a 3rd grade level, she still struggles with adding l and r to words, not seeing the clues that she needs to use long vowels (often tries short vowels first), and she just isn't intuitive, so she does best when you show her every little step, then she owns it.

 

It really depends on where your child is at as to which program/plan will work the best. My guess is you will be fine with AAS, but you might want to add some kinesthetic letter work giving all the flipping issues he is having (and I have 2 that do that a lot).

 

Heather

 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

Yes, it's possible with good phonics instruction.

 

So, good job!

 

Spelling is more difficult than reading, many of my remedial students have lingering spelling difficulties.

 

A good rule based program that is based on the most common words and the most commonly misspelled words is "Spelling Plus," you can get it at RR. It also has a companion "Spelling Dictation" book that uses the words you are learning in sentences if your son needs to use them in a sentence to really learn them (it combines the words, so most sentences have several words you have learned.) It's very efficient for a struggling speller, yet rule based. Most spelling programs that use the most frequent words just teach them in order, not by rule and pattern.

[tmulcahy]

My DDs 7 and 8yo have mild dyslexia (just diagnosed). Their reading is above grade level but spelling and math.....well that is a different story. They have trouble remembering sequence and place value as well as phonics rules. We are switching gears with spelling this year---going to try AAS. I am still confused about math. Tried Abeka (covers too many concepts in one lesson) and dabbled in math-u-see (my kids were bored to tears). At this point I am glad to have a diagnosis so that I know it is not entirely the fault of the instructor:laugh:. Best of luck to you.

 

Therese

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Laurie4b]

My 9yo ds has a terrible time with spelling and handwriting. He scored in the 20th percentile for Spelling and his handwriting is like a 4yo's. However, he has no trouble reading (though he's a bit on the slow side). When I question him about what he's read, there is a high level of both literal recall and inductive thinking. Sooo, he's NOT faking it there. He is currently working through the BJU 4th grade reader (his grade level) with seemingly no problems.

 

We have had an initial meeting with an educational specialist and are waiting on a call back for WIAT-II testing and an OT screening. In the mean time, I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about what we may be facing. I have already started remediating spelling wiht AAS. Would it be worth my time to invest in O/G training if we are not having the reading problems? What about the whole Spalding thing?

 

I am really at a bit of a loss, since it seems that ds may be dyslexic but without the classic reading problems. He does, however, flip letters and numbers (B's become D's, 9's are P's, etc) seemingly at random. :confused: I want to learn as much as I can and quickly, but am not really sure where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Yes, it is possible for a kid with dyslexia to appear to read just fine, especially at a 4th grade level. For kids that have relatively high IQ's, that is the age level that they can often get to without the disability being apparent. The spelling issues are often the clue; slow reading would also be characteristic.

 

Flipping letters and numbers is not necessarily related to most forms of dyslexia, but is an issue of directionality.

[Rhonda in TX]

She's 15 and an avid, strong reader. Her applied spelling is atrocious, though. So, she can read it, but she can't tell you how that word is spelled after reading it. She's even in Honors English (private school), but only because of spell check and careful editing.

[Rod Everson]

Most of the comments in this thread are about the same sort of child. Good, or even very good, readers in the sense of comprehension, but with some guessing, misreading of "little words", and horrible spelling.

 

This sort of child is usually one who is either quite intelligent, or had an excellent phonics education, or both. This sort of child also usually has a vision problem and should be seen by a developmental optometrist to find out for sure.

 

Dyslexics in many countries have little problem learning to read because their "code" (or orthography) is quite simple compared to English. However, they do read slowly. This shows that dyslexia doesn't just mean "poor reader" and that dyslexics can be taught to read quite well.

 

However, that doesn't mean they don't have the sort of vision skills problems that most dyslexics have. It's just that parents aren't at their wit's end trying to fix a reading problem, so the vision problem never gets to the top of the pile.

 

At least get the exam. If there are vision issues, vision therapy could unlock some serious potential in the sort of children being discussed here, especially since they're already doing so well in many respects.

 

Rod Everson

OnTrack Reading-Find a Vision Therapy Provider

[siloam]

Most of the comments in this thread are about the same sort of child. Good, or even very good, readers in the sense of comprehension, but with some guessing, misreading of "little words", and horrible spelling.

 

This sort of child is usually one who is either quite intelligent, or had an excellent phonics education, or both. This sort of child also usually has a vision problem and should be seen by a developmental optometrist to find out for sure.

 

Dyslexics in many countries have little problem learning to read because their "code" (or orthography) is quite simple compared to English. However, they do read slowly. This shows that dyslexia doesn't just mean "poor reader" and that dyslexics can be taught to read quite well.

 

However, that doesn't mean they don't have the sort of vision skills problems that most dyslexics have. It's just that parents aren't at their wit's end trying to fix a reading problem, so the vision problem never gets to the top of the pile.

 

At least get the exam. If there are vision issues, vision therapy could unlock some serious potential in the sort of children being discussed here, especially since they're already doing so well in many respects.

 

Rod Everson

OnTrack Reading-Find a Vision Therapy Provider

 

Yes but VT is also sold as a cure for dyslexia and often it is not. I spent a lot of money on it and it didn't help. It is needed, but it IS oversold as something it is NOT.

 

Heather

[HeidiD]

Yes but VT is also sold as a cure for dyslexia and often it is not. I spent a lot of money on it and it didn't help. It is needed, but it IS oversold as something it is NOT.

 

 

 

I agree with you.

 

Kenneth Lane, OD, FCOVD states in his book "Developing Ocular Motor and Visual Perceptual Skills", that "there are no exercises that have been proven to enhance the transient system. Because of this, I recommend that we do exercises that effect the functions of the transient system and hope by doing this that the transient system is improved."

 

This might help to explain some of the mixed reports regarding the success of VT. We've been implementing some of the book's suggestions for the past few months, and while I have definitely seen improvement in my son's perceptual abilities, I'm still uncertain whether to pursue "official" therapy. Before plunking down several thousand dollars, I would want to know whether the visual problems were related to his "transient system".

 

Apparently, some visual processing issues are comparable to APD (another processing problem common among dyslexics) in that they are neurologically-based and incurable, although perhaps subject to some improvement due to neuroplasticity. Is it possible to determine which visual systems are affected in advance of therapy, in order to decide whether therapy might be more or less effective?

[Rod Everson]

Yes but VT is also sold as a cure for dyslexia and often it is not. I spent a lot of money on it and it didn't help. It is needed, but it IS oversold as something it is NOT.

 

Heather

 

Hi Heather,

 

Yes, many people (even in here) give the impression that vision therapy either "cures dyslexia" or "fixes a reading problem." That's unfortunate.

 

If you read my posts on VT you'll see that I am continually talking about vision skills and using VT to fix them after a developmental vision exam reveals a need to do so.

 

You'll also see that I usually add that after VT, a child will often need a good phonics program to catch up on what was missed when the vision skills weren't in place.

 

You say VT didn't help your child. Are you saying that your child's vision skills, as measured by the optometrist, were poor (hence the need for VT) but never improved? If they didn't improve, that's unfortunate, and I think relatively rare. Or are you saying that following VT your child still had trouble with reading?

 

If so, there are several possibilities, ranging from poor vision therapy, to your child still needing phonics instruction, to "something else" still going on. I'm not sure that even the developmental optometrists have got this all figured out yet, for instance.

 

That said, in my opinion, based on seeing a lot of struggling readers, a large percentage of them are dealing with undiagnosed vision skills issues and the first step a parent should take is to rule out that possibility.

 

Rod

[siloam]

Hi Heather,

 

Yes, many people (even in here) give the impression that vision therapy either "cures dyslexia" or "fixes a reading problem." That's unfortunate.

 

If you read my posts on VT you'll see that I am continually talking about vision skills and using VT to fix them after a developmental vision exam reveals a need to do so.

 

You'll also see that I usually add that after VT, a child will often need a good phonics program to catch up on what was missed when the vision skills weren't in place.

 

You say VT didn't help your child. Are you saying that your child's vision skills, as measured by the optometrist, were poor (hence the need for VT) but never improved? If they didn't improve, that's unfortunate, and I think relatively rare. Or are you saying that following VT your child still had trouble with reading?

 

If so, there are several possibilities, ranging from poor vision therapy, to your child still needing phonics instruction, to "something else" still going on. I'm not sure that even the developmental optometrists have got this all figured out yet, for instance.

 

That said, in my opinion, based on seeing a lot of struggling readers, a large percentage of them are dealing with undiagnosed vision skills issues and the first step a parent should take is to rule out that possibility.

 

Rod

 

Rod,

 

First of all I know there is a legitimate need for VT. I have friends with children who are legitimate cases. My problem is that I have never heard of a dyslexic child being turned away from VT, because the things VT currently screen for are also markers for dyslexia.

 

My 2nd dd was reading, probably a little behind grade level. I knew she was dyslexic (typical skip words, skip sentences, transpose words/numbers use him for his, the for a sort of problems). I took her into a doctor I found through the COVD webiste, and the doctor said she didn't have anything severe, but that she could improve things and they put her into bifocals (which she HATED). We did the exercises daily, and at first it appeared to help. Not that she stopped having the above problems, but that she actually tried to read chapter books where before she would only read picture books. I think it was really was our focus on reading that encouraged her to try. She made extra effort for a while, but then stopped and still only picks up chapter books occasionally. She still has all she same reading problems.

 

I had a long conversation about the whole thing with my Ophthalmologist, and he too sees a need for VT, but again is as frusterated as I am with how it is sold to people who don't need it-and he has seen more than just my case. He gave my dd permission to stop using the Bifocals because there is no proof they help. Let me restate that, yes they might help. There is no accurate way to predict if you will be one of the people who it does help. Prescribing them is a shot in the dark. They might help, or they might have never been needed. He left the final decision up to us, but he said he wouldn't make a child who doesn't need them now wear them. But again I am left frusterated because I was told she needed them originally and they weren't cheap.

 

Most of the legitimate cases I have run across have obvious clues. The parent can see the child's eyes are not tracking, the child has migraines/headache issues, or they just really can't learn to read at all and can describe visual issues that would be a red flag to anyone. Those are black and white, they need VT. Then I have met a lot of people who saw some improvement, but if you get to asking questions they often had a crisis and got VT about the same time they started an o/g reading program. There is no way after the fact to tell how much of the improvement might be attributed to the reading program, reaching a development milestone or how much of it was VT. Most likely a combo. The third group is the one I fall into. Known LD, borderline diagnosis and little improvement. We also started an o/g reading program at the same time as VT, so it is possible that the reading program was again part of the reason for her serge in reading.

 

For the record I am a visual dyslexic diagnosed through the Irlen Institute. I have all the same problems as my dd. I can also look at a page, especially a white page at time and the will look like a really bad copy with shadow print, the white will be glaring and around the edges of the glare the letters have a sense of movement. I do have reading filters that correct it. I doubt I would be a good candidate for VT though for several reasons. I can flip things around in my brain and I don't see how that is a vision issue. It isn't all the time, and it is usually when I am recalling directions. I will be 100% convinced that it is the opposite way. These are places I have driven hundreds of times close to home and this one time my brain flips it. I am also horrible about recalling names in particular. If I go to introduce my close friend of 15 years to someone I just met, I will be able to remember the new person's name and I can't recall my close friend's name to save my life. Both of those speak to processing problems, not vision problems. Besides many of the games the doctor recommended (I asked our VT doc for things that might help me) as ways to improve vision (like playing pong, blockout type games that require tracking) have been my favorite games for years. You would think if I could be remediated I would have improved over time playing these games, but really I continue to have the same issues at the same frequency as I did back in High School.

 

I think it time the whole process will be improved and you will see fewer people treated unnecessarily. Right now it really is an toddler of a concept and is still experiencing growing pains. In good conscience I can't recommend it for children with known LD's who do not have additional symptoms, because I can guarentee they will say the child needs VT, but not that it will improve anything.

 

Heather

 

Edited November 6, 2009 by siloam

[zaichiki]

Yes but VT is also sold as a cure for dyslexia and often it is not. I spent a lot of money on it and it didn't help. It is needed, but it IS oversold as something it is NOT.

 

Heather

 

 

I agree with Heather, though we didn't do Vision Therapy (developmental opthalmologist said it was not needed). I *do* have a friend who spent a lot of time and money on VT and said the same thing Heather did. It made me really question if I was willing to put in the time (distance driving to VT plus hours of therapy) and money ($$$ Our insurance doesn't cover it.).

 

I decided that, as long as I'm seeing adequate improvement with the spelling curriculum we're using now (AAS) and dd continues to read above grade level, I'm satisfied. If we hit a wall at some point I'll reconsider.

 

But... I agree that VT is "oversold" as a "cure" for dyslexia.

[zaichiki]

Shari,

 

Dd is 7.5 (2nd grade by age) and reads 100+ to 250+ page chapter books that are described as RL3.8 - RL4.8 (Animal Ark series, American Girl series, Tale of Desperaux, and The Doll People series).

 

So, she reads above grade level, BUT she has dyslexia and she does have some problems with her reading. She frequently gets lost on the page and within a word. She skips and substitutes words. She reads slowly for the level she's reading. She can sometimes see a word and have no idea what it is, even though she's read it before. Randomly, and occasionally, she will totally forget how to segment a word into syllables for sounding it out.

 

Her phonics skills are good (she spells phonetically), but her spelling is atrocious. She seems to have little visual memory for what a word "looks like" when she's spelling, yet she has a good visual memory (Viola teacher recently did a little experiment with dd: she showed her some sheet music and asked her to close her eyes and picture it in order to play the notes.).

 

She has definite issues with directionality and only gets right and left correct about 50% of the time. She struggles to read new "fonts" and "sloppy" writing, though she has been writing beautiful cursive herself for more than a year.

 

Definitely google stealth dyslexia. You might also be interested in some testing that compares IQ and achievement scores. Children with high IQs can compensate in some surprising ways. I know *my* dd has some really strange dichotomies happening.

 

I remember when she was 3 and knew most of the sound/letter relationships. She could write words phonetically all on her own. One day she got some paper and crayons and disappeared into the other room. When she returned, she showed me a whole sentence she had written (something about a cat and her brother's name). The next week, though, she couldn't read what she had written. She continued to be able to use magnets to spell a bunch of words, and could even write them in lowercase letters with no help, but couldn't read them back after she had forgotten what she had written. Isn't that *interesting?*

 

Good luck!

Edited November 6, 2009 by zaichiki
something I forgot

[Rod Everson]

The reason "dyslexia" symptoms and the symptoms of vision problems overlap is probably because most dyslexics have vision problems, in my opinion. I base my opinion on seeing a large number of kids over the past several years with those vision problems. Some of them could read well, but didn't like to read; others struggled with reading. I came to the point that I now feel that most older kids with reading problems suffer from untreated vision issues. That doesn't mean that vision therapy will always address them, but I do think they're present and that seeing a developmental optometrist is the logical route to proceed.

 

But to get beyond my opinion, here's a clip from an article on orthoptics (as vision therapy is referred to in Great Britain) from a British source:

 

To help settle the debate, the Scottish government last year funded a trial of the benefits of testing and treating more than 100 adults who had serious literacy problems.

'It's great to catch children with problems early, but it's hard to prove for certain that it was stabilising the eyes that made the difference,' says Dr Northway. That's why testing adults who still have a reading problem after school is so revealing.

'The initial results show that 99 per cent of the participants had problems with the way their eyes focused, compared to 2 per cent of adults with no reading problems. Many were very angry about it,' she says. 'They feel they were failed.

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1213459/Are-weak-eye-muscles-holding-child-school.html?ITO=1490#ixzz0WNzrJnSk

The 2% are probably those who learned to read in spite of a vision issue, which was the initial topic of this thread. Plus, by adulthood many vision issues resolve. Some adults who had vision issues as children end up completely suppressing the vision in one eye when reading. That solves the reading/vision problem, though not in the most optimal manner.

 

Also, I don't have a citation for an actual study documenting the above survey of adults so, as usual, treat it with some suspicion.

 

Rod Everson

OnTrack Reading

[momma aimee]

My 9yo ds has a terrible time with spelling and handwriting. He scored in the 20th percentile for Spelling and his handwriting is like a 4yo's. However, he has no trouble reading (though he's a bit on the slow side). When I question him about what he's read, there is a high level of both literal recall and inductive thinking. Sooo, he's NOT faking it there. He is currently working through the BJU 4th grade reader (his grade level) with seemingly no problems.

 

We have had an initial meeting with an educational specialist and are waiting on a call back for WIAT-II testing and an OT screening. In the mean time, I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about what we may be facing. I have already started remediating spelling wiht AAS. Would it be worth my time to invest in O/G training if we are not having the reading problems? What about the whole Spalding thing?

 

I am really at a bit of a loss, since it seems that ds may be dyslexic but without the classic reading problems. He does, however, flip letters and numbers (B's become D's, 9's are P's, etc) seemingly at random. :confused: I want to learn as much as I can and quickly, but am not really sure where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

I can speak from personal expereince. I do not want to enter any debates about what to call things, or the why behind things ...

 

however, i can just tell you about me personally:

 

I was reading on a high school level by 2nd grade and college by 4th. (love the standard test took each year)

 

However, my spelling and math skills have always been way behind. flipping letters in handwritting was the first thing, and flipping numbers.

 

Honestly, to this day, spelling and math are a "low" skill for me, i know at one point in highschool my spelling was rat ed at a gradeschool level.

 

I still have to THINK very hard to make all my letters correctly.

 

reading has always been very simply to me, whereas spelling / handwritting / math has always been a great struggle.

 

I can't give you a why -- I can, if you want, share some of my tricks and things i have personally learned. But yes, it is possible read very very well and still really stuggle with spelling / handwritting and math.

 

Aimee