s/o on HP/Twilight book thread - questions about other book content v. the Bible

[Hoggirl]

Okay. This has been bugging me a long time, and I am just not getting it.

 

Within the thread re: who has or has not read HP and the Twilight books, there was discussion about other books and their content, specifically books that contained adultery, murder, and other acts/behaviors. Recently there was also a thread (I think it was also on the General Board) about what folks do about reading about these same topics in the Bible. I mean, is there not murder, adultery, rape, incest, etc. in the Bible? So, I am trying to reconcile these positions as to what is acceptable to read and what isn't. Does the answer have to do with the consequences that occur in the Bible?

 

I am not trying to stir up a hornet's nest...but I really do not understand how to reconcile this.

 

I am all about age appropriateness. I guess I am speaking more generally?

We plan to read To Kill a Mockingbird this year, but I know there are many of my homeschooling friends who would NEVER allow their children to read this book because it deals with the topic of rape. I wouldn't have let ds read it when he was in 4th grade, but I think it is fine for 7th grade.

 

I realize we all have different points of view on this topic...I am just trying to understand both sides.

 

Please don't throw tomatoes at me.

[HeatherLynn]

I won't throw tomatoes as I agree 100% with you.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I did not read any of the threads you mentioned but I do understand what you are talking about.

 

I believe that each of those stories in the Bible are there for a reason, to explain history, to illustrate a point, to provide examples of consequences for actions.

 

Sometimes those are the same reasons for including uncomfortable topics in books. Sometimes they are not. I think when we read we each make judgement calls according to our beliefs and our comfort zones. IMO, when salacious or violent content of a particular nature is not pertinent to a story, it only diminishes the writer's work.

 

I imagine that most people who won't read books with certain content, also find it uncomfortable to read the Biblical accounts, even if they are Christians. That is the way I often feel. Some actions are so hurtful and bring up such awful images that just because they are factual or in the Bible doesn't make it easier to read about them.

 

The content of some books might also cause us to have thoughts and feelings that we are trying to eradicate from our lives. In fact, lately I've been thinking that many modern writers have a checklist of things to include in their books: one attempted rape or extramarital affair, one use of the f-bomb or slang for the male anatomy. There is another checklist for movies: one exotic dancer or one male backside. I could add more but you get the picture.

 

Each person approaches literature from a different perspective. To read or not to read. What is best for me and my family?

 

We crossed the Harry Potter issue and decided to read. Twilight is a non-issue in my all boy household. They are suitably disgusted by all the "girl talk" about it that they encounter. LOL

 

Random: Perhaps this topic is more about modern philosophy than anything. I recently read a statement that "True Art should shock us." I disagree. I believe that True Art should exhalt us and make us feel richer, or if it must shock, it must also inspire us to better ourselves.

[Jen+4dc]

I did not read any of the threads you mentioned but I do understand what you are talking about.

 

I believe that each of those stories in the Bible are there for a reason, to explain history, to illustrate a point, to provide examples of consequences for actions.

 

Sometimes those are the same reasons for including uncomfortable topics in books. Sometimes they are not. I think when we read we each make judgement calls according to our beliefs and our comfort zones. IMO, when salacious or violent content of a particular nature is not pertinent to a story, it only diminishes the writer's work.

 

I imagine that most people who won't read books with certain content, also find it uncomfortable to read the Biblical accounts, even if they are Christians. That is the way I often feel. Some actions are so hurtful and bring up such awful images that just because they are factual or in the Bible doesn't make it easier to read about them.

 

The content of some books might also cause us to have thoughts and feelings that we are trying to eradicate from our lives. In fact, lately I've been thinking that many modern writers have a checklist of things to include in their books: one attempted rape or extramarital affair, one use of the f-bomb or slang for the male anatomy. There is another checklist for movies: one exotic dancer or one male backside. I could add more but you get the picture.

 

Each person approaches literature from a different perspective. To read or not to read. What is best for me and my family?

 

We crossed the Harry Potter issue and decided to read. Twilight is a non-issue in my all boy household. They are suitably disgusted by all the "girl talk" about it that they encounter. LOL

 

Random: Perhaps this topic is more about modern philosophy than anything. I recently read a statement that "True Art should shock us." I disagree. I believe that True Art should exhalt us and make us feel richer, or if it must shock, it must also inspire us to better ourselves.

 

:iagree:Especially with the bolded parts.

 

As an example I'll reference the Harry Potter books. I read HP to my kids (at age 9 we read book 1, age 10 book 2 etc.). I feel like Rowling is a master at capturing what it feels like to be a teenager. I use it as a teaching tool. For example, in book 1 when Harry gets to buy treats on the train and share them with Ron we talk about how it must feel to have something to share for the first time in your life. We also talk about being included and having friends, we talked about how Harry doesn't like Malfoy (even though it seems like being friends with Malfoy could help Harry be "popular" which he's NEVER been and he desperately wants to fit in) because Malfoy reminds him too much of his cousin Dudley the bully. We talked about how Harry and Ron treated Hermione at the beginning of the book and what they learn about that by the end. These are powerful lessons at ages 9-10 as they are getting ready to hit puberty.

 

{spoiler!!!!!!}

My oldest (dd12) and I are getting ready to start HP#4 this week. As a Christian, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to bear witness to her of how resurrection really happens at the end when Voldemort comes "back to life." What a great time for a 30 second teachable moment instead of a "sunday school" lecture!

 

{spoiler!!!!!!}

In book 6 when so many characters spend so much time "snogging" (making out) and then are hurt so badly when they break up, what a great opportunity to discuss s3x and how even making out is supposed to be sacred. How God designed for it to draw us closer together, God's design for s3xual relationships. [sidenote, there is no explicit description of the "snogging" in the books. I gathered from context that snogging is a British term for making out].

 

Okay, enough rant:D. I think you get the idea. I just thought I'd put that out there. If your kid is interested in them I think these books do a great job of showing how anything can be used with good purposes or evil purposes (magic, people, love, power, etc). They also do a great job of describing what it's like to be a teen and struggle. We all have struggles, that's part of life. We all sin, that's also part of life. We have have hateful feelings toward other people at some point in our lives. The question is, what do we do with those feelings, do we act on them or not? And, if/when we sin, do we repent and turn from sin or do we wallow in it? Yes, characters in HP make mistakes and sin. But, we also see them learning from them (or not learning and suffering the natural consequences).

 

That being said, the books do get darker as Harry gets older. So, we don't start them till my dc are old enough to really understand fact vs. fantasy and then the first time they read the book we read it together and talk about it. I find them to be great for creating wonderful teachable moments.

 

JMHO!

Edited August 4, 2009 by Jen+4dc
typos

[FO4UR]

I think the difference is the way those situations are handled in the Bible vs other literature. There is a lot of the (OT especially) that I will save to read until my kids are older...but there are definitely subjects I will approach in the Bible that I wouldn't with other books.

[Veritaserum]

I think these books do a great job of showing how anything can be used with good purposes or evil purposes (magic, people, love, power, etc). They also do a great job of describing what it's like to be a teen and struggle. We all have struggles, that's part of life. We all sin, that's also part of life. We have have hateful feelings toward other people at some point in our lives. The question is, what do we do with those feelings, do we act on them or not? And, if/when we sin, do we repent and turn from sin or do we wallow in it? Yes, characters in HP make mistakes and sin. But, we also see them learning from them (or not learning and suffering the natural consequences).

 

That being said, the books do get darker as Harry gets older. So, we don't start them till my dc are old enough to really understand fact vs. fantasy and then the first time they read the book we read it together and talk about it. I find them to be great for creating wonderful teachable moments.

 

JMHO!

 

:iagree:

[ereks mom]

I believe that True Art should exhalt us and make us feel richer, or if it must shock, it must also inspire us to better ourselves.

 

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

Didn't read other replies...

 

It seems obvious to me. In the Bible these things are mentioned in order to impart a lesson to the reader. In most cases there is little detail. What details are given do not make the things look attractive. In books however, adultery, murder etc. are made to look attractive and entertaining, or enough details are given that you can't get the reprehensible acts out of your mind. There is a big difference.

[mrsrevmeg]

The rule of our house as far as movies and books go is "how is the *bad stuff* presented?". If the evil characters are presented as the heroes of the story we do not watch/read. If there is something in a book or a movie that maybe we would not want in our own lives, but the character learns a lesson or there is some form of warning for the reader I feel like that redeems the story. I do not like books or movies that go to extremes to glorify the *bad* (i.e. the character has an affair-the book gives steamy, detailed information about everything or the movie shows very detailed scenes) rather than just stating or even implying that something happened.

[Sheila in OK]

:iagree: 100%.

 

Didn't read other replies...

 

It seems obvious to me. In the Bible these things are mentioned in order to impart a lesson to the reader. In most cases there is little detail. What details are given do not make the things look attractive. In books however, adultery, murder etc. are made to look attractive and entertaining, or enough details are given that you can't get the reprehensible acts out of your mind. There is a big difference.

[Veritaserum]

Didn't read other replies...

 

It seems obvious to me. In the Bible these things are mentioned in order to impart a lesson to the reader. In most cases there is little detail. What details are given do not make the things look attractive. In books however, adultery, murder etc. are made to look attractive and entertaining, or enough details are given that you can't get the reprehensible acts out of your mind. There is a big difference.

 

But many other books do this as well.

 

I understand what you mean about evil things being made to look attractive and I do agree that it's better to avoid those. However, I think there are many lessons to be learned from books with flawed characters because we are all flawed ourselves.

[Lovedtodeath]

But many other books do this as well.

 

I understand what you mean about evil things being made to look attractive and I do agree that it's better to avoid those. However, I think there are many lessons to be learned from books with flawed characters because we are all flawed ourselves.

Making it entertaining or putting too many details is my limit then. I haven't read any books imparting a lesson with these topics that are not meant to be a Bible study aid.

 

For example, when David committed adultery it is not told as a love story with details of his relationship with Bathsheba before or after the fact. Nor do we hear details of her allure. We do hear the act to avoid that led up to it (kept looking at her), and the terrible repercussions. When Cain killed Abel we don't learn about Cain's heart racing or how Abel reacted or looked at the time. We learn the act to avoid that led up to it and the repercussions. Same with the story of Dinah.

[Veritaserum]

Making it entertaining or putting too many details is my limit then. I haven't read any books imparting a lesson with these topics that are not meant to be a Bible study aid.

 

For example, when David committed adultery it is not told as a love story with details of his relationship with Bathsheba before or after the fact. Nor do we hear details of her allure. We do hear the act to avoid that led up to it (kept looking at her), and the terrible repercussions. When Cain killed Abel we don't learn about Cain's heart racing or how Abel reacted or looked at the time. We learn the act to avoid that led up to it and the repercussions. Same with the story of Dinah.

 

I understand what you're saying WRT to explicit details. What about Les Miserables? Fantine has premarital sex and gives birth to a baby before being abandoned by her lover. She later turns to prostitution as a means of supporting her daughter. When I read her story I felt compassion for her. Not only did she suffer pretty harsh consequences for her actions, she was judged harshly by others. I wasn't tempted to follow her path. I did, however, interalize the need to avoid judging others for their mistakes--I've certainly made my fair share! ;) Gone with the Wind also comes to mind. Yes, Scarlett lusts after Ashley, but she also overcomes incredible obstacles as she strives to keep herself and her dependents alive. She's not perfect, either, but I learned that almost everyone has redeemable qualities.

 

Anyway, I think it's very limiting to think that the Bible is the only source for stories that teach or that any story covering negative topics is somehow dangerous. :)

[*********]

Making it entertaining or putting too many details is my limit then. I haven't read any books imparting a lesson with these topics that are not meant to be a Bible study aid.

 

For example, when David committed adultery it is not told as a love story with details of his relationship with Bathsheba before or after the fact. Nor do we hear details of her allure. We do hear the act to avoid that led up to it (kept looking at her), and the terrible repercussions. When Cain killed Abel we don't learn about Cain's heart racing or how Abel reacted or looked at the time. We learn the act to avoid that led up to it and the repercussions. Same with the story of Dinah.

 

I agree!

 

For my family, our choices in entertainment is summed up with in Phillipians 4:8 - "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."

 

We don't chose things for entertainment that go against these things. We do not find murder, rape, incest, etc. to be suitable entertainment, as these do not glorify God.

 

For education, and learning about our faith, we do indeed study less 'savory' subjects from the Bible, as well as from other sources that we would find suitable. As education, not entertainment. We are not entertained by murder, rape, incest, etc. in the Bible (or anywhere else, for that matter); rather, we are educated on how God would have us to live. Same principle for why I watch the local evening news. I am not entertained by the stories of murder in the nearby big city. I am, however, educated/informed so as to keep my family safe.

 

Just my family's take on it. :001_smile:

Edited August 4, 2009 by bethanyniez
clarification

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you so much for the scripture! I was already thinking of it.

[Peek a Boo]

Anyway, I think it's very limiting to think that the Bible is the only source for stories that teach or that any story covering negative topics is somehow dangerous. :)

 

part of the problem w/ other classic literature is not the way that you happen to have reacted to it but how others may empathize w/ the character --so much so that they DO [intentionally or not] make the same/similar mistakes.

 

I agree that the Bible is certainly not the only source for learning great lessons, but when it comes to actions with such a negative impact, there is absolutely a point where people of all ages start to become desensitized to the idea of those actions. i don't necessarily limit my dc's reading to Bible only, but because the rate of desensitization varies from family to family and kid to kid, I don't hold my standard as the only one ;)

[Hoggirl]

Thanks for sharing your insights on this. I do agree that the lack of graphic detail in the bible is a distinguishing feature. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

 

However, I do not think that education and entertainment have to be mutually exclusive. Our adult SS class lesson this past week was about the Israelites complaining about the lack of meat while in the wildnerness and God's response of sending so much quail that it was three feet deep! I found it to be BOTH entertaining and educational.

 

Thanks for taking time to respond.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

... but this was somewhat addressed by our minister some time ago. Every so often he does a series called You Asked for It! Someone emailed and asked why sometimes the band will play secular music before the sermon. He pointed out that the secular lyrics help him to illustrate what his sermon is about. Either the author will be having very real feelings like we all have about something particular, or they will be singing about whatever sin the sermon is speaking against. So the songs are basically meant to help tie in with the sermon in a way that all of us sinners can relate.

 

Does that even help to answer your question? I think that books can be used the same way. We don't have to condone the actions in the books just because we might enjoy reading the plots. Sure, there are some things that might be just beyond what you find comfortable, but someone else may not have a problem with. I honestly do not think that reading Twilight or Harry Potter compromises my relationship with God. However, I was not able to get very far into Wicked before deciding that I could not, in good conscience, read any more of it. You just have to know where your own personal line is.