I am not pro or anti, or really educated enough to understand a lot of the discussion surrounding all of it, but I do think it's a very weird political football. Also, I haven't read the whole thing before posting because it was so long.

Has anyone read this extremely long Medium post about hcq? Warning that the guy is extremely anti-Trump, but I'm not posting this to get into politics. He also uses profanity.

Thanks to all for the info. We will have about a year in a temporary living situation and were planning on looking for an existing home during that time, but I started to wonder if it would make sense to look for land instead and build what we want. It's been so long since we've owned a home or looked for one, or since I've searched house plans I feel totally out of my depth. I am going to start looking for experts in our new town and see what's feasible.

I guess this is one in a series of posts of mine that could be titled Help a Middle Aged Woman Figure Out Adult Things. Please hit me with your best tips, resources, ANYTHING, about buying land and building a custom home. I am NOT talking about buying a lot in a subdivision/development and picking from their list of options. I am talking from scratch, no property currently owned or scouted, no plans drawn up, totally naive about the process. Are the costs comparable with buying an existing home? Depends on the area? The area in question currently has a tight real estate market. Do realtors specialize in land vs homes? This was not really in the plans, but something came up that may make it possible for us, if not ideal.

It's silly to try to prevent a video from existing on the internet in this day and age. It's practically impossible. If we want to argue about their liability or responsibility, that seems a strange thing because then you have large corporate interests essentially responsible for or liable for whatever anyone wants to put on the internet and censoring whatever might lose them money. I'm not sure that's any better than government prohibition of speech and it's easy to see how the two get aligned when you look at Googles relationship with China, for example. There are a dozen idiotic and plain wrong videos that come across my sm feeds daily. We really want a team at fb or Google or whatver corporations deciding which are "dangerous" and which are "safe" to view? I'm still in the sunlight-is-the-best-disinfectant camp, especially with stuff like this. Trying to hide it is only fanning the flames of conspiracy among my covid truther friends, and in a big way. Much bigger than plandemic or those other two urgent care docs.

Oh, I don't think most people are!

Yes, but also, in general, I dont use someone's worst case experience with something to determine a lot of things, if that makes sense. It can inform me as to how I might take precautions, like anchoring a bookshelf to the wall if I know a child hurt by pulling one down, but not trying to avoid books and bookshelves ever being in my home, which would surely solve the problem but wouldn't be a tenable way to live until my kids were grown. Or using a car seat properly but not refusing to drive around all together. Things like that. I can't imagine even being able to stay in for a year logistically (although we have to move this fall, so that's part of it), much less that being healthier than covid for a couple of my dc in particular, given the relative risk. For my kids, I'm actually more concerned that they would catch the flu, particularly the baby. For me, the hospitalization rate seems about on par with other seasonal illness, although that info is a little hard to suss out. I will be a much happier camper this fall/winter if staying home when sick is more socially expected.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/irt/2012/351979/ That's just the first link I found, I haven't researched extensively lately, but I got down a rabbit hole about post-viral issues a few years ago. I have seen a close loved one go into sepsis from a "mild" skin infection (bacteria). Which is why, when people start in on this about covid causing Kawasaki or cfs or whatever else I feel like, yeah, viruses are not good even if we've learned to live with them. It seems like every single outlying covid case is reported on as if this stuff doesn't happen with other illnesses, viruses in particular. I don’t know how people were living before all this. 😂 To counter anecdote, I personally know eight people that have had it, ages vary from 1yo-68. Most had a day of symptoms, the worst case (the oldest person) had a week of symptoms. On the contrary, a relative of mine had some kind of virus in early March where she coughed for a month, which isn't uncommon for bad cases of the flu or other bronchitis/pneumonia type stuff, IME. I don't know if their experience is helpful in informing my own risk assessment. Or at least, I'm not acting as if it is.

I wasn't talking about free speech as a public vs private issue. I was speaking generally. Of course Google, Twitter, FB, et al can delete whatever they like. That doesn't mean that because they can do that they aren't suppressing speech on their respective platforms, for whatever reasons. And, again, trying to keep a video off the internet is just silly.

I think the idea that deleting something from the internet can be done in 2020 is super hilarious. All the attempts to take this video down have made my conspiracy minded friends more likely to seek it out and share it and more determined than ever that "they" are hiding a cheap cure for profit motives, and they are starting to convince some people I would consider fence sitters. The idea that there is some responsibility for those who know better to supress speech because of certain external circumstances is not tenable and only fans flames of conspiracy. The only good counter to bad speech is more speech, or perhaps not acting like whatever is being said is so importantly awful that it must be removed from public view asap. You get more looky-loos by doing that than anything else.

Wouldn't that be all viruses that can cause any type of post-viral syndrome? Viral myocarditis, cfs, etc.? Is there data about coronaviruses in particular causing post-viral issues at a higher rate? ETA: I'm not being snarky, post-viral stuff is why I'm determined to get my flu shot every year, among other precautions. I have seen some cases of it from covid in the news, but not beyond what would normally happen with some kind of viral illness going around.

I thought this was one of those weird internet rumors, but my neighbors got some! I hope someone figures it out.

No, but I guess this isn't the only instance I've seen, just the latest one, and why the gov is trying to specify what qualifies as food when bars say they are serving food.

Or not...

That is all I have been saying this whole time (the bolded). Licensing drivers is done in such a way so that almost everyone can meet the requirements and make the rules with little issue. COVID restrictions are not that way for many people. But also vis a vis the graphs and charts you posted above, I would say that a better way to show curves would not be EU vs US, or US vs other countries, but rather states or even major metro areas broken out individually. The US had a first wave in NY/CT/NJ and they seeded the rest of us, so that is when, especially Florida, started seeing more cases. Their curve is totally separate from NY. And a good way to see if a state or metro area is, in fact, flattening the curve is to compare all major metro areas or states over time in the US since March. Did they slow the spread initially? Are their outbreaks and spikes smaller than other countries or areas that spiked sooner? Are they able to slow the spread if it starts rising? Can we contrast the sharp spike and decline with a slower rise and maybe prolonged plateau instead of a peak? Remember the slow the spread graph being published everywhere in March? Can we see that happening or is everyone spiking with no hope of control until enough people die to relieve the burden?

Katie, I'm sorry if the virus is hitting close to home. Truly I am. I have been living with that reality since April when we had to send my DH on an aircraft carrier with thousands of other people in a pandemic. None of my neighbors social distance, I live in a very closed community, and there is community spread happening. I don't know why the assumption would be that someone with my views would not have had to deal with this thing up close and personal. And yet, I can be the one to be social distancing, doing everything right, and still end up catching this because I have unavoidable trips to the dentist. And where do I end up if I am resentful of everyone around me doing a "worse" job than I am and I still catch this? I can be grumpy in my heart, and fearful because my sibling works in a grocery store, and afraid because my dad straight up doesn't care. I can't demand everyone around me change their behavior. I can't control that. I can only do what I can do, and even that is limited. You and I probably live fairly similar lives during these times, to be honest, but my personal experiences and feelings are not what is informing how I love my neighbor, even if I perceive that they do not care one whit about me or mine. I cannot spend my time or my energy or my heart judging them because a) I think it will make me bitter and anxious and fearful, and b) I believe I'm commanded not to. Because as soon as I start judging them and I end up feeling superior for my almost pharisaical devotion to Covid Rules, I think the most humbling thing would be to get the virus because I can't avoid dental surgery. If they get sick, I want to be the one bringing them groceries and meds instead of spending all my time thinking about how dumb they are or how irritated I am with them. If I let myself be that way, I have miles of resentment I could build up. But even with that, it has no bearing on my views of individual priorities and how I don't know what someone else needs or is going through economically, socially, emotionally, in their home or with their job. My anxiety in isolation doesn't trump theirs. "Because it's a pandemic," does not trump everything for everyone and I'm willing to respect that.

I think where I would differ from your ideas as stated above is to say we *can* prevent viral spread a ton of different ways. A lot of people choose not to or are not able to, the overall spread of viruses isn't something that can be stopped. Washing hands or buying condoms is hardly asking millions of people to give up their livlihoods and is this easier to accomplish by far, and yet people still choose not to do those simple things. So that is why I said virus spread isn't prevetable, not that you literally couldn't, but human and viral behavior makes is practically impossible.

It is preventable if no one goes anywhere or if there is a vaccine. Viruses that don't spread usually aren't able to do so because they are too quickly lethal or we figure out a pharmaceutical way to stop them.

The belief that virus spread is preventable is a lie that a lot of people are believing and I think and is driving a lot of this discussion. Again, when or where has a virus ever been eradicated by behavior modification without a vaccine?

If you are unwilling to factor in any other possible circumstances, I think we're probably at an impasse. I do think it is a privileged pov, but we probably disagree on that too. People are working shoulder-to-shoulder all day long to ensure I don't even have to get out of my car to get groceries, meds, anything. They are then coming home to their families every day. Putting their kids in daycare. Me calling them not smart for bbqing seems disingenous at best and very convenient for me.

Right, but there are no certain exact right behavior modifications for eradicating a virus unless absolutely everyone stays home for a month, and maybe not even then, and we all know that isn't possible. So yes, we prioritize life events, human contact, need to eat, need to make a living, some luxuries...yes, we all do this. So everyone wants to say they are not talking about all or nothing, but nothing short of no one going out at all is going to keep this from cycling through the population. So we are working from priorties, as you say. So if you are like me, happy at home, don't need physical contact with friends, don't have people outside the home to take care of, don't want extra curricular activities, don't have a job or business to worry about, don't have essential travel, have anxiety about sicknesses in the best of times...then all of the quarantine is pretty awesome. Priorties are easy! But take out just one of those factors and then you have an entirely different set of priorities. So my prioritizing as you say looks a lot different than the woman whom I am paying to grocery shop for me at Walmart. She now has to be in the world, find childcare for her kids, come home every day...and she is being told that her desire to attend a backyard BBQ is the wrong priority. I also have to look at my kids watching the neighbor kids interact every single day on slip and slides and such...and if your kids aren't pretty affected by something like that happening for MONTHS, then I say sincerely that you should thank God for their emotional resilience. I have a couple who are not bothered and at least one who is torn up every day having to obey his mother's wishes. This is messy and I don't think any of us can be on a high horse about choices we make relative to our circumstances, even if they seem frivolous. Even if my neighbors get sick and spread it amongst themselves, there but for the grace of God go I. I can't look down my nose at them letting their kids play together frivolously. I just can't. People earn their living on frivolous these days. A lot of people as unemployment numbers show. Also, people are talking about 100-ish deaths per day in one state with the exact same language that was being used in NYC for 1,000 deaths per day. It is *hard* to make risk assessments and prioritize based on that kind of reporting of information with no additional context. And yes, as callous as it sounds, context is needed because in any other time, a lot of people die everyday, die too young, die of preventable things that also require prioritizing. I have seen a lot of people simply unwilling to accept that and think that for this virus, no price is too small to pay to avoid one person dying from it, or they make some sort of calculation like 10 people dying per day is okay, but definitely not 30, or 50 or something. It is hard to make priorities right now and I think if we say it isn't we are either being naive or extremely self-righteous.

This line of thinking is fine until you are a vendor or someone who makes their living off of renting or hosting something like this, or a city or county official looking at million dollar shortfalls because no one is paying the taxes on using the local convention center. Of course! most of us can go without carnivals, amusement parks, conventions, and all sorts of things. Unfortunately, the taxes from those big events pay for a lot of local services like police, fire, etc., in a lot of places not to mention direct wage loss from those sorts of things. I'm not saying there is a good answer or that we should be doing those things (although if protests are not driving spread, that leaves a LOT of room for outside events like carnivals), but it bothers me when people simply write them off like they don't involve jobs and major tax revenue and services we all take for granted.

Fwiw, I have heard the same sort of thing happening with the second shot of the newer shingles vaccine -- prepare to be knocked down for 24 hrs or so. Like a pp, if I knew efficacy was good, I'd take a day or two of side effects and get the vaccine. But I also know people who think the red bump you get on your arm is evidence of "toxins", so I know I have a higher tolerance than most.

Without a vaccine, though? Through behavioral modification?

The difference being that instead of reckless behaviors, here we are talking about people simply existing and living their lives (having normal jobs, providing for their families) as the equivalent of drunk driving. Even if we want to make that equivalency, it is a huge shift in thinking about recklessness and relative risk to others. We are including sober drivers in the same pool as drunk drivers, to extend the metaphor.