I get the idea of the hammer and the dance. I think that people are deluding themselves if they think anything short of a hard hammer on an island that then closes its borders will prevent large numbers of people from getting sick from now until vaccine. We live in a state that supposedly did it right, cautiously opened and weren't at all considered to be cavalier about things like FL or TX. Still the virus is doing what viruses do. Add to that, flattening the curve is relative to hospital capacity and population density in each individual place in the country, plus a flattened curve still has an upward trajectory at some point, and it is difficult to tell who has flattened things and who needs to crack down and who is doing relatively well. This is compounded by the fact that people use the same scary language to describe situations that are vastly different in terms of numbers and metrics, so people definitely get pandemic news fatigue.

Hmm, I think that any reopening is going to cause new surges. https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/18/four-million-people-in-catalonia-asked-to-stay-at-home-amid-coronavirus-surge

I keep reading the subject line and thinking you got invited to a covid party.

Not always, I don't think. I mean, that's certainly an argument that people use, that x must be compelled by force for the greater good. In this case, specifically, I think we need to be really, really judicious about creating and enforcing laws against non-violent offenses including mask wearing. For one, I'd like it not to be a crime for people to be out and about just being without a mask. For other reasons: of not financially penalizing people during hard economic times and essentially creating debtors prisons, not putting people in confined congregate living spaces like jails, and because it puts police in a position of needing to use physical force in a time of needed DISCRETION (not desecration, that was autocorrect!), or it puts business owners and workers in a place of enforcement. I think societal and cultural pressure and good public health messaging is a much better way to go at this time.

Yes, people should! That's not the issue. The issue is if people should be compelled by force to wear a mask or change particular behaviors. The threshold for compelling behaviors by force via government mandate has always been a question of principle.

Our system of government does happen to be different than any other country in the world as well and limits what authorities are allowed to impose on individuals. I mean, other countries ban or mandate religious garments too, doesn't mean it's not political or that we could do that here (note, I'm comparing systems of government, NOT masks and burquas before someone jumps on that). It also isn't the only issue before the courts vis a vis the pandemic, by far. SIP orders, business closures, church and other gatherings being prohibited, travel bans, visa restrictions...if you think masks are the hill people are dying on, you're not paying attention to the numerous legal challenges making their way through the courts and how this pandemic is creating a lot of hills. Also, a recent study about mask wearing as individuals puts us ahead of the UK and Australia among other places, so the US is far from the only place where masking isn't widespread. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/17/upshot/coronavirus-face-mask-map.html

Standing on principle can also be good, and take a lot of courage depending on the issue. I would venture to guess that what people view as good leadership (pivot or stand firm) depends on where they stand on the law or idea being discussed. The fact that some think it is not problematic for leadership to go from one extreme (don't wear masks) to another extreme (wear masks or go to jail) in a matter of weeks seems shortsighted, but obviously that is a disagreement that can't be discussed here either because it is political. To deny this is political at all and is simply a given moral good and obligation for the government to penalize non-mask wearers is a point of view that allows for no disagreement or further study of the issue. Of course, I differ from most here on police enforcement of mask wearing, and I can say that regardless of my personal experience with covid and what I want people to do, I'd rather it not happen under the threat of financial penalty or imprisonment. YMMV.

How would it not?? I said that because mask mandates and how you view whether or not the government should be able to force people to wear a mask under the penalty of fines or jail is at the very least philosophical, if not outright political. Someone can be all for mask wearing, and wanting as many people to do it as much as possible, and still not be for forcing people to do so or forcing employees and business owners to enforce such a thing or face fines or jail time. Or not wanting to give police the power to enforce such a thing. So the idea that if someone got uncomfortably sick they would change their principles about such an issue as government powers and use of force seems not good. No good for the one being indifferent to the suffering of someone they disagree with and not good for someone in charge of issuing executive orders to do so based on an uncomfortable or even traumatic personal experience. The political issue is not mask wearing, IMO, it is mandates and police enforcing mask wearing with fines and jail time. Obviously we can't get into discussing that here, but that is literally the entire issue of mandating masks at all.

I quoted the posts I was responding to. The original post I responded to said this: One can only hope that he has symptoms that make him extremely, let's say "uncomfortable," so that he will understand

Also, I would like to say without having gone through additional replies that there was a question near the beginning as to whether or not someone is a terrible person for wishing suffering on another human they disagree with on a certain issue like masking, where they think the issue is of such import that the suffering of one would lead to the greater good because it would change the mind of the one if they experienced such suffering. I wanted to express that I don't think the person wishing suffering is any more of a terrible person than I am. I see injustice from my perspective and I am guilty of wishing suffering on those who commit it, even if only in my thoughts. So I most likely have a different view on how this plays out philosophically and theologically throughout my life, but I think in general I was not trying to point out anyone's terrible-ness specifically, but rather, as soon as we start wishing suffering on others in order to somehow be compassionate in our own minds we run into quite a lot of trouble, or at least the potential for justifying quite a lot of harm is taking root in our own minds, if not our actions.

"I'm not wishing covid on him, just hoping he suffers now that he has it." Wishing suffering on others to promote compassion and preventing suffering, lol, yes, it is me that can't understand the distinction.

Just putting it out there that it is acceptable to wish severe illness on people who don't think mask mandates are the way to go. Do you really think wishing suffering on him will prevent others from suffering or save lives? Do you think everyone who is pro-mask is in favor of state mandates? I am not going to change your mind, I get it. I am finding the longer this goes on the more vitriolic people are getting about their positions, to include wishing covid on their political adversaries.

Wishing severe illness on those who don't agree with mandating masks.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN24G16L?__twitter_impression=true In recent days, social media has shown maskless revelers dancing in the street, jammed into cars turned into ad hoc nightclubs, and crowding shoulder-to-shoulder, with drinks in both hands, in the outdoor seating areas of restaurants. "It's a tale of two cities," said Miami Beach Mayor Dan Gelber. "Our residents are pretty compliant, but our visitors have been spotty and there are areas of the city where it feels like the only people there are those who don't think there's a virus." ... In populous South Florida, hospital officials have reported emergency rooms and intensive care units nearing capacity. On Sunday, Florida reported more than 15,000 cases - a new state daily record that surpassed New York's April peak. But a group of mask-and-bikini-clad vacationers from New York City said that was not enough to discourage them. "We know there's a pandemic going on but it's not like you're not going to live your life," said Tamia Young, a 36-year-old postal worker visiting from Brooklyn with her mother and two daughters. "Everything is closed anyway, so it's not like you can even enjoy Miami."

Yes, the kids and DH went out and saw it on Saturday morning and then went out on Sunday again and brought the telescope. They got excellent views of Saturn and Jupiter too! I slept in with the baby both times.

It is a misdirection and false equivalency to insist that because I might be in favor of some public safety laws that I must be in favor of jailing or fining people for not wearing masks or for not tattling on their fellow citizens for not wearing masks. I am not going to debate the nuances of each law you brought up to deflect from this issue, but yes, I do think that it is terrifying that 2 or 3 months after telling people not to wear masks we now want law enforcement fining or jailing people for not wearing them *or* business owners or staff in the position of enforcing those laws or losing their livlihoods. It is appalling to me that people would think that is a good idea. That doesn't mean I have to be for or against every other measure of public safety we currently have on the books in various places. I am probably more libertarian than most, and like I said, being in favor of jailing people for not wearing masks among other things is not what I'm about, but it isn't a far outlying position at this point. I get that people do want to fine and enforce mask wearing via local law enforcement. If you want to put already strained business owners or staff in the position of enforcing mask laws on the general public or fine them and enforce those fines with already strained local police forces, that is not something I'm in favor of. I am in favor of mask wearing. I don't think it should be enforced by police with guns or fellow citizens trying to tattle on non-mask wearers. I don't think we should put people in jail during a pandemic for not wearing one, or for not enforcing that other people wear one, or for not paying fines associated for either one of those things. ETA: wrt the bolded, business owners are individuals.You can't fine a store without or a business independent of a person.

Anyone who says the bolded about any crime is being disingenuous. What happens to people who won't or can't pay the fines? What is the mechanism for enforcement? And who bears the burden of fines if not people who can least afford them? And who do we get to enforce mask wearing fines? If you don’t want people being thrown in jail for something, you don't make laws about that thing, fines or no, because not paying fines gets you a warrant, which gets you arrested. Then again, I know people who want non-mask wearers thrown in jail, so it's not that far out there, which is scary even for this mask compliant person.

But aren't case counts irrelevant if positivity is high? As in, Italy's seemed to be around 30% in April from a quick Google search, so their actual cases would have been much higher than what's published? Last week I heard FL's positivity was around 12%? I really don't like cases as a comparison given wide variance in testing from April until now and huge disparities in positivity rates. Then again, I'm often confused about what the numbers are actually saying and people will say certain metrics are a big deal that seem inconclusive to me.

This is, quite frankly, a terrifying point of view and justifies any number of draconian measures, pandemic or no. Are we going to arrest and jail people who refuse to mask? Are we willing to use police force to enforce masking? Both ironic given that jails and congregate living are drivers of spread and the current zeitgeist seems to be a movement to give police less reason to use force or arrest people. Not to mention, the reason that many models were so off in terms of high estimates of fatalities is because they failed to account for individual modification of behavior, much of which is done ahead of or in spite of government rules.

If anyone is looking for some positive developments.

Ah, well I might freeze my credit or just be extra vigilant in checking purchases for awhile. I wouldn't be too overly worried if I only said yes to verify my name. I was asking because I got a call from the census and I definitely had to say the word yes, and I am 100% certain it was legit as it's the number listed on the website linked above.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2019/11/2020-census-fact-v-fiction https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/surveyhelp/verify-a-survey.html#call

Right, but the Census does call people after you've submitted your data so I'm wondering how you knew it was a scam or how your debit card was involved.

Did you give them your debit card number? What was the scam?

I posted this article about the reporting of them. https://www.wired.com/story/covid-parties-are-not-a-thing/