Get thy ass to the doctor! That is the first step. And hugs cause I have been there and it sucks. So take that first step and join me on the other side. And feel free to PM me if you want to talk more.

But does it make them "right"?

It was different for me. I had one in my thirties and one at forty-three, unplanned. My second pregnancy was more uncomfortable and I had more fatigue. And I think the fatigue was greater even considering that I already had a child to care for at the time. She was already seven and in school at the time. With my first pregnancy I worked through until the last month. I was a lot more tired that first year. I think, depending on the person of course, you just need to probably pace yourself a little differently (more slowly lol).

I did catch it actually. That us why I thought this letter would be of interest. I don't remember it being linked in that thread. But I could have missed it too.

I ran across this and thought there might be some interest. I wish that the books had not been represented as being quite so factual. I am also a little disappointed every time I come across information that they were not. I like to think of them as true, or at least mostly true, or maybe just truer than they are. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2014/04/21/rose_wilder_lane_laura_ingalls_wilder_a_letter_from_their_editorial_collaboration.html

So after reading many of the links and really thinking about this, I just find myself fascinated. I mean, what is the attraction of churches like this? And I am wondering how the world becomes so scary to people that as adults they want to be led like little children, told how to dress, with whom they can associate, how they should educate their children, for whom they should vote; the list goes on. It truly sounds cultish and I do not get the WHY, kwim? Is this because people feel that their lives are meaningless and they are being offered the "opportunity" to be part of something bigger? Is it because they can't face being IN the world and need to hide from it? Does it make them feel important as opposed to insignificant? That does seem like a draw that many churches have, claiming that they have the answers, that they are god's favorites. I have many devout Catholic relatives. I have protestant friends but they belong to the Methodist or Episcopalian or Lutheran Church. I have had friends who are Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist. They are all in the world, interacting with people outside their faiths, sharing traditions and respecting others (or I guess I would not know them lol). It is just so much better than people who want to judge and be separate (imho) or, even worse, have the goal to somehow to force their agenda on everyone. And that seems to be the point of the whole quiver full thing right? If they out breed everyone else their values will triumph.

I think I am going to pick it up next time I go to the library too. I remember thinking that on one side was the proverbial shepherd with a faithful flock and on the other was a herd of cats lol. I have no interest in being part of a flock myself, but still it was pretty clear who was going to be taking charge.

Have any of you read "Kingdom of Children: Culture and Controversy in the Homeschooling Movement"? It was written by a sociologist and one of the things I remember most was how the more extreme wing of Christian homeschoolers were able to become the public face of homeschooling because they were so much more comfortable operating in hierarchies. He describes the differences in just the meetings of what one might call the crunchy secular folks with the meetings of the conservative Christians. It was kind of funny. Even the way they sat, the crunchy (my term btw) folks in a circle and the conservative Christians in rows with a leader who could mobilize them quickly and without too many questions. The secular homeschoolers were not going to have one person speaking for them let alone calling to mobilize them. Anyway, it is an interesting read about the early homeschooling movement and its politics.

Only if it was part of God's plan. Who knows, maybe the victim coming out saved the wife because he needs her now, the faithful wife standing by her remorseful man (gag).

I googled and what an ass (and not in the good way).

I did. I also thought of women in Arab countries. Patriarchy is the common denominator. So here is a question; what is with the buccaneer outfit? Why is he dressed like that?

This quote from Amanda Marcotte at The Daily Beast sums it up for me, The unpleasant truth is that a culture that teaches that women are put on earth for no other purpose but to serve men is not going to breed respect for women. Instead, these incidents show a world where men believe they can do whatever they want to women without repercussions. Is it any surprise that a subculture that promises absolute control over women will attract men who want to dominate and hurt women? Don’t believe the TLC hype. Biblical patriarchy is a sour, dangerous world for women, and luckily, that reality is finally being outed.

For my dd the difference was between verbal and nonverbal IQ with the Stanford Binet Intelligence Scales. She does not have the gross or fine motor challenges that often come with NLD. She does have most of the others, to varying degrees though. Some are not very apparent at all to anyone who does not spend a lot of time with her. Two children, both with NLD, can look very different from each other depending on how and to what degree they are affected. We know one other child with NLD and I doubt that anyone would put him and my dd into the same category. He is affected very differently. He has a lot of the motor issues but is much, much less rigid or black and white in his thinking. They both have sensory processing issues but that play out differently. I have read several times that NLD is a disability that a person "grows into" in that it is much less apparent with young children and becomes a problem as they get to middle school or junior high and the demands, both academically and socially change. Abstract reasoning and subtle social communication can be very challenging. They also often have problems with executive functioning and that becomes problematic leaving elementary school. I was able to diagnose my dd with NLD after reading one book. Then we had the neuropsych confirm it. This is the book that did it for me though: http://www.amazon.com/Nonverbal-Learning-Disorder-Understanding-TeachersNeed/dp/0399534679/ref=pd_sim_b_8?ie=UTF8&refRID=1K04NHNZ14035PMA8WNA.

So he is not free to speak out unless someone asks him about it specifically? That is certainly convenient. How fortunate that someone asked him about it after the news about DP and what a swine he is broke and not before.

But he could have spoken out against patriarchy theology. And he did not do that until DP was unmasked for the pig that he is. And as he sent at least one daughter to college rather than seeing her married off at eighteen to breed, he clearly did not agree with the crap DP was spewing. It was a politically cowardly decision in my opinion to not speak out sooner.

He is publicly arguing against him on doctrinal issues now that he is going down isn't he? He has now expressed his past concerns with patriarchy hasn't he? What if he had done that when DP was at his peak of power/influence? Might that have had some fund raising ramifications? Call me cynical, but it looks like a political/financial decision to me, his past silence and his present willingness to speak out.

I don't know. It is pretty safe for Farris to speak out now. I think he knew what kind of man DP was. Otherwise why was he making such an effort to distance himself? Why didn't he speak out sooner? Has he issued any statements against patriarchy before now? He has a lot of respect among many conservative religious homeschoolers. If he actually has any moral courage why wasn't he talking about his problems with patriarchy before now?

Well, that is just perfect.

Please explain to me why people follow guys like this, adult people. Because you are right. I do not get it. Do you define every follower of men like him as victims? Because I am not talking about these two young women who were teenagers when he began targeting them. I am talking about all the people who supported this man and gave him power. Without his followers he was nothing.

I don't get how people, especially women, buy into patriarchy. When, in the history of the world, has hierarchy based upon ascribed status ever gone well for those at the bottom? They are always subject to abuse and exploitation. And yet people buy into it and in the process sacrifice their own children. Sorry, but while he is clearly a pig, he only got to be an influential one with the help of followers. Even if he is finished by this someone else will take his place and people will follow the new guy spouting the same line of bull.

You are welcome but, just to be clear, it is not my hs blog I linked. I just wanted an example. We just started one with seasons and months. You can purchase very intricate ones also. This one could be cool to make too. My dd has quite a collection of tubes from paper towels and toilet paper. It would be nice to find something to DO with them lol.

It could be, but maybe not. I think a neuropsych evaluation is the best way to find out. My dd has NLD and her full scale IQ is not all that helpful because of the variance. But IQ isn't the full picture for anybody really. Here is a quote from nldontheweb.org, NVLD should be diagnosed in the context of a comprehensive neuropsychological evaluation. It is not simply a matter of Performance IQ being less than Verbal IQ, since there may be many reasons for such a discrepancy besides NVLD. Furthermore, NVLD can be present even if no discrepancies between strong verbal ability and poor performance show up on the Weschler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC-III). One does not need to have every characteristic of NVLD in dramatic form for the diagnosis to be helpful in delineating the pattern of strength and weaknesses.

Have you tried anything like this? I think circles make so much more sense than the traditional page a month calendars. http://www.lifeasaschoolhouse.com/2013/01/circular-perpetual-calendar.html

Try cleansing with oil. It sounds crazy but really works. If you google it you can find different combinations of oils for different skin types. Here is just one: http://wellnessmama.com/7569/oil-cleansing-for-naturally-perfect-skin/

Anxiety is generally part of NLD, just part of the package. If you are having to navigate the world with incomplete information it can create a lot anxiety. My dd has NLD and anxiety is our biggest challenge. We are making progress but it is slow and it is hard. Dd is also very anxious about being "wrong". We have tried making mistakes deliberately just to demonstrate that it is OK, the world will not stop spinning. I say things like "it is learning, not knowing" and "nobody learns without making mistakes,nobody!" Using a white board to figure out math problems and have me check them one at a time is how we are doing it now. Then she writes them in her workbook. Making mistakes on the white board does not bother her as much. I try to point out my own mistakes and model an "oh well, I will just try again attitude." But I just don't think there is one thing that can address the anxiety or any kind of quick fix. It is a long process, but it can be overcome. Did I say that it is hard lol? For reading progressive phonics has been the best for us, and it is free so it might be worth a try. I also use Critical Thinking Language Arts. For math Singapore (with the home instructor's guide, which includes the games and activities) is good. Ronit Bird is good also, for math games for kids who struggle with math. We also use Life of Fred. When dd was at her most anxious about math we did just Life of Fred until she liked math again (about nine months). Then we were able to go back to Singapore. Math in narrative form is sort of perfect for kids with NLD. She is a good year below grade level but making progress. And as long as we are moving forward, even if it is slow, it is good. I tried different homeschooling "styles" I guess you might say. And school at home with a very. very, very predictable structure has been best. Her anxiety is much less when life is very predictable. Routines are good. Predictability is good. When we have to change our schedule, when life interferes with our routine, I just expect a bit less from her and know that it is going to be hard.