Currently we're doing all LA components separately - grammar from FLL, writing skills from WWE, simply reading random good books for reading, penmanship from Abeka (learning cursive), and spelling from AAS. I just spent about an hour on the Common Sense Press site looking at LLATL. I like that it is cohesive and that the many subjects that are LA are all integrated. I wish I could take the content of FLL and WWE and combine it into the other things I'm using! So... I have a whole bunch of questions: How does LLATL compare to the things I'm using? Does it provide as good a phonetic/rule-based spelling base as Abeka or AAS? How do the reading selections compare to other classical/CM curriculum's lists? Does LLATL include some of the books commonly seen on many book-lists? Is the grammar at least at the same level as FLL (or is it behind or ahead?)? Is the grammar as comprehensive? How does the writing instruction compare to WWE? Will it prepare a kid to learn parts of the progym by 7th or 9th grade? How does LLATL writing (not penmanship, but writing skill instruction) compare to CW? I know that's alot of questions, but I can't just order up a batch of LLATL books just to review. If money were no object... Thanks ladies! :)

OPG works for K through the middle of 1st grade. It starts at the very beginning, introducing short vowel sounds. Day 1 is /a/ as in apple, with a cute rhyme that you and your child say together, and your child repeats back to you. Day 2 is the next vowel, same process, but you review day 1's material as well by adding day 2's letter to the rhyme after day 1's. Am I even making any sense? Let me just go get my book... Ok... day 1 is Aa. Day 2 is Ee. The complete rhyme you chant w/ your child on day 2 is: "A is the first vowel we will say. /a/ is the short-vowel sound of a. E is the next vowel, dont' you see? /e/ is the short-vowel sound of e." So on day 3, you would review/repeat all this plus the lines of the rhyme for the next, new vowel. There are follow-up suggestions for use later in the day to help jog the child's memory, and games as well. By lesson 6, introduction of consonant sounds begins. There is a rhyme for every consonant, which builds line by line for every letter added like with the vowels. OPG is intended to be a lesson a day and has 231 lessons. After all consonants are learned, Section 3 (beginning on lesson 27) is words w/ short vowel sounds, some sight words (the, of, is, I, a), the qu sound, etc. Section 4 (beginning on less. 41) starts two-consonant blends. Section 5 is Consonant Digraphs, section 6 is Three-consonant Beginning Blends, and so on. Long Vowel, Silent-E words start in section 7 on lesson 65. For the digraph /ph/, my 5-yr old read these words from the OPG book to me: photograph, telephone, alphabet, physical... When I first perused through the book I thought "these words look too hard for a K'er", but it really does teach the skills needed to read them. As for LA using FLL (grammar) & WWE (writing skill), what I've been using with those for my 2nd grader is this: Penmanship: Abeka Writing w/ Phonics 2 manuscript to cursive (since we started w/ Abeka when he was 5) Spelling: AAS Reading: a) Assigned Chapter Books reading time - challenging reading, no twaddle, meant to stretch his reading level. I choose books from many classical curric's catalogs and websites, such as VP, SL, WTM lists, AO, etc. b) Free Reading time - he can read whatever he wants as long as I don't have any qualms about the content. I wish it were all more integrated and cohesive. It does feel a bit choppy and each LA part isolated. He is learning though.

We use Atelier, and before I started I didn't know which level to go with either. If I were you, I'd just find a middle ground: whatever level they suggest is avg. for a 10 - 11 yr. old. That way it's not too young for your dd, but leaves room for your oldest to catch up. If one or some of your dc move ahead at a different rate than the other(s), you could go ahead and get the next level for them, knowing the others will be moving into it eventually (you wouldn't be wasting $). Then again, if you're like me you want to keep them all on the same level to save time. I'd call Mark (I think that was his name) at Atelier and just describe your dc's abilities. Since he knows the program inside & out, he could probably make the best rec. I highly rec. the famous artist study cards & guide. I forgot what Atelier calls it. This adds some art history, appreciation, and picture study to the curriculum.

Oh my gosh, thank you all so much for the heartfelt replies (and the really good practical advice)! Thanks especially for the prayers. Dh did come home from work Wednesday with his mind changed. He said he started missing me and that the thought of actually going through w/ it hurt too much. After posting here I decided I'm not going to sit back and watch my marriage go down the drain. I realize this doesn't mean we're totally in the clear. Obviously there are issues that led us to have that conversation and they still need to be dealt w/. Our church is showing Fireproof free tonight and is having a marriage conference this weekend. I decided that whether he comes with me or not, I'll start going to counseling to work on my issues. He's agreed to go now, too. Before, he didn't see the point, since we've already been (years ago). There was never any yelling or fighting, we just felt like we lost our connection with eachother - at least that's what it felt like to me. There was literally no sign of affection from him and if I didn't say anything to him all day long, things would be silent between us b/c he wasn't even initiating conversation (or even short small-talk) w/ me. It felt like he just had no interest. He swears there's no one else, and I'm pretty sure he's telling the truth. I say "pretty sure" b/c *trust* has always been an issue for me. There's no sign or evidence of anything like that going on - just the lack of affection between us. But I think he gets it now - that simply a complete lack of affection can really make someone wonder if the affection is being diverted elsewhere. I'd been trying to tell him that for awhile. This does make me look at him now though and wonder about how things can be 'back to normal' now, when a couple days ago he didn't want to be married to me anymore? It feels like it was a really bad dream. I think it just highlights how urgently we need to start paying attention to us (vs. just the house, the kids, etc.), and get some help. I can't thank all of you enough for the prayers, hugs, care & concern.

I'll start by saying I don't take divorce lightly, it's never been an option in my head. Dh and I have always worked through things. Last night I went to him with the "things can't go on like this" talk, meaning that serious change was needed. He suprised me by ending it the other way - he wants a divorce. He's pretty set on it, and suprised me again when he said he's been thinking this for years (he could've mentioned it to me!). The really good charter school my dd goes to is open to the public but only through a once-a-year lottery. The lottery for this year has already happened. So, my boys will most likely homeschool next year too. If divorce is really on the horizon, this means all kinds of changes: moving, me finding a (paying) job, etc. I still don't want to put my boys in the regular ps system. Have any of you had to homeschool through a divorce? How do you manage to plow through when this kind of heartache is looming over constantly? How do you function as a single, working mom, having to share custody (i.e., you're not w/ the kids to hs them anytime you please), and still get hs'ing done?

Oh good! I just bought THOTAW to read for myself. Good to know I can put it to more use in years ahead! I so want that new edition! It can't come out quickly enough! Is there anything about Singapore Math and Horizons Math in it? Will the Williamsburg (or any) conference be available as a podcast online? :D Where are these online conference notes available at? Thanks!

I just had a reply typed up and tried to insert a quote in the middle of it, and *poof*, all my typing disappeared. :glare: Yes, my oldest hs'er is 8. My 13-yo dd goes to a charter school. Yes, we get the additional IR and RA books suggested in the SOTW AG for extra reading, the ones our library has, anyhow. I do interlibrary loans for the others but sometimes the timing is a little off, though I order a month ahead. Usually we only get around to them if I have time to read them out loud to the kids, but I'm going to start assigning some (esp. the lower-level IR's and picture books) to my 8-yo. I do have the red Kingfisher and the Usborne internet linked history, both of which we always open up and look at. Carol, I really like your suggestions about using a good children's novel to help w/ narrations. I got out SWB's article "Tips for Narration" and am just having him summarize 2 consecutive (related) sentences from things we read into 1 sentence right now. Once he gets that down pat, I'll work him up to summarizing 3 sentences into 1, and so on. I like your suggestion though, b/c we already read a chapter of an Oz book daily at bedtime (the kids' choice, not mine:001_smile:) and that would be so easy to just add into the mix. We do have the SOTW CD's, but oddly, my boys really don't enjoy listening to Jim's voice (sorry Jim!). They find it scary and one had nightmares about it. :confused: But on the other hand they like hearing L. Frank Buam's weird Oz stories right before bed and those don't bother them at all. Go figure. They very much prefer that I read SOTW to them. Tiffany, the idea of stopping more frequently to ask questions like that will probably help a great deal too. I'd imagine he'd be able to answer the narration questions afterward alot better. Thank you all so much for the great ideas and advice. I've actually got out a notebook & pen and have been taking notes. As far as picking a history/literature-based curriculum for next year, I really want to have one for the schedule. I tend to flounder around freely and waste time when there's not a schedule. Part of what attracts me to "put-together" curricula is that multiple subjects are scheduled out in detail in advance. ScrappyHappyMama, I looked at HO a while back but haven't revisited it since I'm looking for something that incorporates Biblical worldview & Biblical historical events. I still really like MFW b/c they use the Bible as a spine. MOH is pretty "up there" on my list as well, although it is only a history curriculum. I know I listed some denominations that I'd prefer our curricula to 'jive' with, but we attend a non-denominational church & really I'm looking for something that 'jives' with the Bible in it's entirety and within it's historical context. I laid out some options in various hs catalogs and asked my son what he thought about it. He said he'd rather learn about American history than keep on with the cycle we started. I don't let him decide the direction of our hs, but I just wondered what his preference was. I think I need to pray about it (do you think God cares which one I choose? I mean, this is getting pretty nit-picky and detailed. He's probably more interested in me finding the right balance between too easy and too hard for them, to keep things peaceful.). Right now I still don't know how to choose, except to flip a coin or something. :tongue_smilie: Currently I just read our children's Bible out loud to them daily, and although the timelines for it and SOTW don't always line up, it does add some of what I'm looking for. I just wish all the things in the Bible were interwoven with our history in some sort of logical way - chronologically or by empire/ruler/kingdom/area. We're just going to finish out SOTW 1 for ancients first, then move onto whatever else, even if it does end up being SOTW 2. For awhile there I was actually thinking of getting something to add or switch to for ancients, right now. We have other things, like narration & dictation, that need focus at the moment. :D Staci in MO, thanks for the reminder. I do value hindsight (since it is 20/20 and all) a LOT. I've wondered that myself; no matter what curriculum I choose, how much of it are they really going to remember?

I thought I had the big things chosen. Then I started looking at history curriculums. The end.

The funny thing is that I suspected that about SL (I've looked @ their old catalog and online), so I think I'm just struggling w/ choosing what direction overall to take as far as rigorous or relaxed, or somewhere inbetween. If I choose to go w/ SL, then I'm tossing all my super-rigorous TOG-type ideals out the window (sort of), and it would be b/c I just choose not to make school that hard this early in the game. There's another thing: I assume TOG is hard. It's what I read on these boards - esp. about it being hard for mom (TOG fog). I got the newest SL (yellow) catalog in the mail yesterday, so that one's really spinning around in my head w/ all the other options. :tongue_smilie: I just don't know how to choose. I don't want to make school too hard for them, or unenjoyable, but I do want it to be challenging. I think I need to take the next month or 2 and just really tune into my kids' learning style. I need to try to stretch them and see how they do and how far is OK and how much is too much. I don't know how we've gotten this far w/o me knowing that. :confused: Guess I've got my work cut out for me. Thanks for all the helpful info though, ladies. If anyone else can shed some more light on my original question (which one for next year based on what I want out of it?), that would be super peachy.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I could have posted that, just change the ages of the kids and add a doubtful hubby to the mix. My kids had just been accepted to a very good charter school as well. I know it's hard to deal with that decision and others' doubts. Don't let her doubts become your own. You've had babies before, it's not like you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Homeschooling doesn't take as many hours per day as 'regular' school, so you're full attention won't be needed for as long as your mom is probably imagining. Maybe she hasn't noticed, but most kids don't learn how not to act (and that being a positive thing) from school anymore. IME, they learn the opposite - how to act badly. I won't send my kids to our local public schools for the reason stated by the PP's - they wouldn't learn anything and would be bored. There was nothing new they would have taught my K'er this year - it would have been a waste of his time. I have plenty of friends who continue to have kids while hs'ing. You can feed the baby and teach simultaneously. It works for many, many other families out there. I totally agree w/ Merry about "The Baby IS the Lesson". I haven't read the article, but it sounds like exactly what I was thinking. The kids will learn so much about how life works, mothering, family, etc. just by being there w/ you and the baby. In the end it's your own decision to make, so make sure you're basing it on what you really believe. Don't take other people's doubts into account unless you agree. Good luck and I wish you the best!

Well I've looked at Biblioplan, MOH, and Truthquest online now. Ugh - my head is spinning. I noticed that Biblioplan schedules MOH, the Bible, and some SOTW . The samples online make it look like it's just a reading schedule - no questions (oral or written). The "meaty narrations" suggestion is a great one. This is our 1st year hs'ing a la WTM, or any type of classical/neoclassical (previously it was Abeka & montessori-style). So, this is our 1st year w/ narrations, copywork, dictations, and all that jazz. My 8yo was doing WWE 2 but the only result was him in tears and as we got further into the book it just got worse. He really didn't know what the 'main idea' or 'central idea' of a passage was. So... we've backed up to square one with that for now. We're in sort of a "pre-WWE" phase right now. When I ask him (my 8 yo) for a history narration I get a blank stare at least 50% of the time. I end up wondering if they think I'm reading it out loud to myself for my own enjoyment, because they sure don't seem to have paid attention. It's a point of frustration in our home right now (if you couldn't tell). I'm just going to have to get much more firm about assigning things. Typing out the narration questions is a really good idea. I've been thinking that if he reads the text himself maybe more of it would stick. I'll start having him follow along as I read. As for next year, I'm still stumped. I like the 4-yr. cycle for keeping the kids all in the same history, thus saving time. :) (We do science that way too). I'm a little worried about my older son not having had any state/local & U.S. history by 4th grade, since that's what the state tests that year cover. I know it's not the end of the world if he flunks those things (or is it - can he be held back?). I've always just figured we're on our own weird schedule apart from the "norm", but that we'll cover it at some point. It does still seem odd to me; the thought of having kids that old who don't know much about our own state or country's history. So, I've looked @ Truthquest which does a 3-yr. American History for youngers then starts a longer world history cycle, or SL which would finish up world history quickly in 1 year (Core 2), then 2 years of American history (Cores 3 and 4). But I really like the idea of TOG and MFW. Problem w/ TOG for me is digital only, and cost. I'd do it if I was convinced it's what was best for us. Problem w/ MFW is that we'd have to do Adventures or ECC next year, then do ancients AGAIN in CtG, and my oldest would never get around to any US history until 7th or 8th grade. With the 4-yr. cycle, at least we'd reach modern times in 5th grade for him. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud now, I don't mean to ramble on so. I've got to decide somehow. Is there a homeschool convention where all of these history curric's are shown? :)

Maybe I need to go back and read through the posts again, but just to clear it up, I don't think anyone here specified the current administration. Fwiw, I agree with you that life *right now* in the US as a conservative Christian is not even comparable to the atrocities of communsim, which I am well aware of. I don't want to get into anything about politics here, since that's not allowed, but I didn't want you left feeling so highly offended. I hope I was able to clarify w/o continuing the part of the conversation that needed to be dropped.

What would you recommend to me for history? Here's a little background and thoughts about what I'm looking for: We're currently using SOTW 1 + the AG. I like the layout and the simplicity, and I don't mind putting books on hold to pick up at the library. I love having both boys (1st & 3rd grades next year) on the same level, otherwise our days would be too long, so we're sticking w/ the 4-yr. cycle for now. OTOH, it does feel like there's got to be more to history, deeper, KWIM? I would like, in addition to our history lessons we do together (the read-aloud part), some independent assigned reading (esp. for my up-and-coming 3rd grader) with questions to go along with it - written preferred (to work on answering in complete sentences and such). He needs to take more responsibility in bothering to pay attention during history and I believe that reading it himself, not just mom reading aloud, and then writing down answers about it will help him in many areas. I don't want *too* heavy of a load for him - I do want him to have time to just be a kid too, but I feel it does need to be stepped up a notch. I intend to use something with a Biblical perspective (non-denominational Christian, or pentecostal/charismatic/evangelical/baptist), but I also really want it to genuinely be accurate history as well. I've looked at MFW, SL and TOG, and still want to look at MOH, WP, TruthQuest, Biblioplan, etc. From all that is out there, what do you think would be the best fit, and why? I'm sorry I keep asking so many questions about this stuff, but I keep looking and looking and I just can't decide! Good thing it's still spring!

Your answers just reminded me that the chapters are never very long, so if the page numbers are off, it will only be by a little. *blushing* I should know that, we use SOTW 1. I had seen SL's microscope in their catalog, I just didn't know where it lies on the spectrum of quality (in my price range, anyhow). I'll look at the other one too. Thanks ladies!

Larry Schwiekart's (sp?) books, particularly 48 Liberal Lies, shines some light on this but includes other topics as well. U.S. kids these days are not learning enough about communism, and when they do, they're not learning enough truth about it. I'll just say that I agree w/ Donna above about preparing for change.

Any other microscope rec's? Pretty please? :)

Mamasheep, have you ordered the free samples and catalogue from TOG? They'll send you 3 weeks from any year of your choice free. Perhaps it could be a glimpse into the overall tone. As for very detailed questions about TOG's doctrinal presentation, I plan to just contact them directly. HTH!

I just read a review in The Book Peddlar's catalogue that lamented the *absence* of focus on God's hand in history in SOTW. I think it was written to the widest audience possible, and it can be considered too secular if you are looking for something Christian, or to have a Christian slant as seen by other poster's reviews above. It's very easy to supplement though, for those of either persuasion. :)

I've made lists, check-off charts, etc. that I don't use now. I had to make an MS Word table to figure out what to teach who when - and I'm only hs'ing 2! I'm a visual person and need to see it all laid out like that. What I do still use is a a basic daily schedule, one for ea. day of the week. Once a day is done, it gets recycled to the next week, or if it's too marked up, I print a new one out. It's split into 2 large columns showing what I'll be doing with ea. child at any given time, and what the other can be working on independently. That helped solve alot of problems. Other than that, the only thing I *really* have to plan for is science, b/c I'm not using a curriculum. I have to look at my science studies outline and see what I'll need for what comes next. It doesn't have any dates or deadlines on it, just a list of what I'd like to teach. We're moving on to invertebrates (finally) next week, so I've been gathering books and finding online videos, finding hands-on resources, etc. for our 1st topic in it. For history, the only thing I have to do is open up the SOTW AG and put the recommended books on hold at the library, make sure to add anything (like air-drying clay for ex.) to the shopping list, make copies of the pages, and we're set for the next week. In math my kiddos are on different levels so I've just got a couple of notebook pages I keep stuffed in the TM's w/ my notes for ea. of them. My notes include short things like "focus on fractions and memorizing 3's x table, how to write and add $, decimals" for my older and "place value, memorizing addition facts, marbles for grouping/mult. concept" for my younger. Then I know what I want to focus on in addition to, or in place of, what the TM suggests. I have many math manipulatives and math games on hand (and we use marbles, beans, good 'ol flashcards and other everday things) to implement what I want to teach. The lesson plans I make are not at all elaborate, and learning still happens. I think if you find the need to, simply jotting down a few reminders on paper and keeping in mind your overall direction while knowing your correlating resources, will be enough to pull it all together. The comment about having to defend oneself against any alleagations is a little frightening. Wouldn't the actual work the kids have done suffice? :confused: It's food for thought, anyhow.

Hello again, I noticed SOTW 2 unrevised edition & AG on sale for $5 ea. at PHP. It says it's just the maps that are different - but why? Were they wrong? Can I still use the old version and trust it for accuracy? Also, does the content on the page #'s still line up w/ the new version? I've been thinking of using a 'formal' progam like TOG or MFW, etc., and if they rec. SOTW at all, I want it to be the right page #. While I'm at it, I'm looking for some rec's for a really good microscope. For now, we'll just be using it to look at bugs, fingerprints, hairs, etc. I don't want anything toy-ish, we already have the Eyeclops Bionic Eye for that. I want something that will last through high school and that we could see blood cells, bacteria & viruses under. I have no idea what the different zoom levels mean, if more is better or if different levels are just used for different things. What should I be looking for, and what are some good (longlasting, durable) brands? Thanks a bunch!

This year was my 1st year hs'ing a la WTM (3rd yr. in all). I read the book over the summer and pieced curricula together myself. I am torn between just continuing in the things we are doing now, for the most part, which means separate curricula for ea. subject, or going w/ TOG or MFW. You can see what we're using currently in my sig. line below. I use the AG w/ SOTW, so we get some hands-on activities. I really prefer to focus hands-on time to math manipulatives/games and science projects/experiements/observations (well and art, of course). I feel like to spend time every week on a hands-on project from history takes up precious learning time. However, to just read to the kids from a book ea. week doesn't seem to cut it. I think they must be daydreaming or something while I'm reading. Their retention isn't where I'd like it to be. So, to cement the info, I go ahead and do the history activities and talk w/ them about things from that week's chapter while we're doing it. I really want to simplify, streamline, and combine or at least integrate different subjects with eachother. That is my numero uno priority for next year. Do you think going the MFW/TOG route would help me achieve this goal? Or could it add so much to my plate that it would make it even further out of reach? I feel like what we are doing now is pretty simple, and I think both well and poorly of different aspects of that. Thanks!

Thanks for all the help. I think I just needed a shoulder to lean on too, b/c of feeling frustrated over having wasted so much time struggling w/ level 2. We could have been more than halfway through w/ level one, instead of deciding to start it, by now. *sigh* Oh well, better late than never, my grandmother always said. Fwiw to anyone else reading who may have or may in the future encounter the same speedbump, I got out my "Tips for Narration" article by Susan and re-read it today. I had forgotten portions of it. It reminded me to go aaaalllllllll the way back to square 1 when nothing is clicking. Today I had my ds narrate/summarize 2 sentences to illustrate what info. is important and what is just details that can be left out. I'll also be working with him on how to substitute fewer words for longer phrases to summarize. We'll be doing these baby steps for at least a couple weeks until he has it down pat. Since my K'er would be starting WWE in the fall, I may have him sit in for these short little lessons too. I see now that preparation even before level 1 couldn't hurt. Since this means we won't be doing much actual writing, I may assign some letter-writing and teach him about indentation and what a paragraph is, etc. Just to ease my guilt over not producing any writing. :) Thanks again for all the help, this forum is the BEST!

Thanks for the help. I agree it doesn't make sense to push forward when he isn't getting it. I think part of the problem is that I don't get how to further help him. The books give example child answers, but don't say what to do if something like this happens. I've told him things like "Try to hold the words in your mind, make a picture of them in there, and/or hold a sound recording of them in there", but I don't know what else to say to help him. I don't know how to elaborate on the instructions and tackle it from any other angle - besides saying something like what I just said above. I think I may need more help figuring out how to help him figure it out, kwim? I'm off to get WWE 1 for him (I'd have to get it for my littlest one for next year anyhow). I still feel nervous about what to do if I run into this again w/ him though. I know WWE (the workbook anyhow) is as scripted and hold-your-hand as possible, but I find it hard to think of other ways to explain what it is he's supposed to do. Does anyone have any help for me as the teacher to go at it from more than 1 angle?

:iagree:and my closest relatives are those 3 things! Perhaps it's b/c I know (first-hand, for some of it) the stress and time away from family involved. I will be mortified if either of my sons actually becomes a NASCAR driver. That scares me just b/c of the sheer danger. I don't know how to do multiple quotes, but Virginia Dawn said "Singing/acting star. My daughter was smitten with this occupation as a young teen. That made me cringe big time." Yep, that's where my dd is right now. Absolutely convinced that singing is her destiny. :glare: I don't want to discourage her so I allow her to dream, but... let's just say she won't believe that winning American Idol "someday" isn't a real career. RRRrrrrgh!

The Venola (sp? could be Venolba or Venoba?) Secrets are secrets of the KGB made public. Not all of them, of course, but some from a small slice of time between the fall of the USSR and when the KGB put it all back under wraps. It's not the name of a book, but a set of documents. I have no idea how hard or easy they'd be to look up. Also, there are many Russian journalists who've been threatened and killed (some as recently as the last couple of years) for voicing their dissent against the Russian gov't. The underground former KGB has followed these people to England and to the U.S. and has attacked and killed them there. If you do a search on this you should find at least 2 stories, as I just saw them on TV (documentary-style stuff on History Channel or PBS) within the last year. I know those aren't exact titles, sorry I can't provide any, but hopefully they'll be easy to find!