The average public school will have a child about 35 hours a week. If that is not enough time then they need to be more efficient with their time. The last thing I would do is give them more of my precious family time to waste.

yes

Fiction I've read lately that I liked.... The Thirteenth Tale The Lost Symbol Three Cups of Tea March People of the Book

I do not like it either...but I am also not a "hugger"...I throw away birthday cards... and my kids' craft projects unless it is something really special...I rarely cry...and I thought the "Titanic" movie was ridiculous...so I am obviously missing some kind of DNA. :D

no way. I hate cleaning kitchens. would you think less of me if I told you that, depsite all the wondrous cultural things we are experiencing here, I really miss TACO BELL. :tongue_smilie:

:lol::lol::lol: That's for sure. On a lighter note, I did actually see a bumper sticker today that said, "Are you as close to Jesus as you are my bumper?" Considering the way traffic is here, it made me laugh out loud. OK, getting back on topic now......

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I agree. It happened to me as a student in both school and college and I saw it all the time when I was a teacher. I taught AP English and classic literature is filled with biblical allusions. If I even mentioned that students would yell, "You can't talk about God. My mom will sue you!". I wasn't prosyletizing but when kids ask what a certain turn of phrase means or where it comes from and I say "the Bible" and then I get threatened by my students???? Students ARE ridiculed for bring Bibles. And in one high school were I worked they had a wiccan group that met weekly but when the kids wanted to start a Bible study group they were told no. Also, we had to take down "Merry Christmas" signs in our school but the kids made Islamic prayer rugs in art class. I had a Bible verse taped to the top of my desk that inspired me to KEEP teaching and I was told to take it off. Yet the teacher down the hall could wear her hijab to school. It isn't a separation of church and state. It is a of separation of the CHRISTIAN church and state. With violence, drugs, teen pregnancy, and a general lack of a moral compass in schools... some prayer now and then is the least of their worries.

They ALWAYS ask: what is your greatest strength? what is your greatest weakness? where do you see yourself in 5 years? I can't stand insipid interview questions. :tongue_smilie:

Wow Ronette. That is awesome. i think I will have my kids memorize THAT instead of the real one.

True. Secular humanism is the full term for it. Here is some info and you will find that the textbooks in public schools adhere to this particular "faith". First, Secular Humanism is a worldview. That is, it is a set of beliefs through which one interprets all of reality—something like a pair of glasses. Second, Secular Humanism is a religious worldview. Do not let the word “secular†mislead you. The Humanists themselves would agree that they adhere to a religious worldview. According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is "a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view." Not all humanists, though, want to be identified as “religious,†because they understand that religion is (supposedly) not allowed in American public education. To identify Secular Humanism as a religion would eliminate the Humanists' main vehicle for the propagation of their faith. And it is a faith, by their own admission. The Humanist Manifestos declare: "These affirmations [in the Manifestos] are not a final credo or dogma but an expression of a living and growing faith." What are the basic beliefs of Secular Humanism? What do Secular Humanists believe? Theologically, Secular Humanists are atheists. Humanist Paul Kurtz, publisher of Prometheus Books and editor of Free Inquiry magazine, says that "Humanism cannot in any fair sense of the word apply to one who still believes in God as the source and creator of the universe." Corliss Lamont agrees, saying that "Humanism contends that instead of the gods creating the cosmos, the cosmos, in the individualized form of human beings giving rein to their imagination, created the gods." Philosophically, Secular Humanists are naturalists. That is, they believe that nature is all that exists - the material world is all that exists. There is no God, no spiritual dimension, no afterlife. Carl Sagan said it best in the introduction to his Cosmos series: "The universe is all that is or ever was or ever will be." Roy Wood Sellars concurs. “Humanism is naturalistic,†he says, "and rejects the supernaturalistic stance with its postulated Creator-God and cosmic Ruler." Secular Humanist beliefs in the area of biology are closely tied to both their atheistic theology and their naturalist philosophy. If there is no supernatural, then life, including human life, must be the result of a purely natural phenomenon. Hence, Secular Humanists must believe in evolution. Julian Huxley, for example, insists that "man ... his body, his mind and his soul were not supernaturally created but are all products of evolution." Sagan, Lamont, Sellars, Kurtz—all Secular Humanists are in agreement on this. Atheism leads most Secular Humanists to adopt ethical relativism - the belief that no absolute moral code exists, and therefore man must adjust his ethical standards in each situation according to his own judgment. If God does not exist, then He cannot establish an absolute moral code. Humanist Max Hocutt says that human beings "may, and do, make up their own rules... Morality is not discovered; it is made." Secular Humanism, then, can be defined as a religious worldview based on atheism, naturalism, evolution, and ethical relativism. HTH

TEA TIME...I think you have some really interesting points and I like reading your perspective but, for what turned out to be a REALLY long thread, we have kept this really civil and I'd like to finish the conversation before it gets locked. So I respectfully ask you to play nice, OK?

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It sucks when it all hits at once. :grouphug:

Honestly? They can't. That's why public schools don't work and won't work. That's why we homeschooled and now that my kids have started school they go to a christian school so they don't have to "pretend" to separate their religious views from the rest of their life (which can't be done anyways). That's why we will always have these problems in public schools...because, no matter how hard we try, who we really are will seep out eventually and muddy the water. It's why I don't doubt that the principal of that school DID momentarily forget about the new rule and request prayer before the meal...it's what he has always done...it's who he is...he has tried to follow the rule and has been successful but then his real self slipped out again. He DID still violate the court order (I think...still waiting on exact details) and so he has to accept the consequences. But the idea that we could ever come up with one method of educating (meaning the public school system) that will be equal and adequate for ALL kids (respecting and NOT rejecting who they are) is a fallacy. It can't be done. Another reason why homeschooling is so great!

There is absolutely no such thing as "neutral". We all have a worldview that colors everything we think, do and say whether we realize it or not. NOT teaching religion does not make a school "neutral"...it makes it secular and secular is anything but neutral.

I truly laughed out loud at this! :lol:

yes yes yes! fantastic!!!

I assume if it were a muslim school, I would have already known that before we enrolled. If we were to move to an area that was predominantly muslim (like where we live now) and sent our children to the local schools (which we do not since I am the principal of the school they attend) I would fully expect the muslim culture to infiltrate the schools. Even if the government paid for the school, if the majority of people who work there and attend there are muslim, there is no way their faith would not seep in. So if I found out a teacher who was a particularly devout muslim was praying in class it would not shock me in the slightest. And if it was terribly bothersome to me that this teacher was prayng in front of my children I would send them to a different school. But I wouldn't expect the school to change for me. Yes I know, in America we have separation of church and state, etc. and that is the big difference. But words on a piece of paper do not change who people are. And sure you can sue to get the to stop being who they are in front of you but it really doesn't lend itself well to a harmonious world. I guess you would have to come here and watch christians, muslims, hindus and buddhists coexist fairly peacefully to get what I mean. It's just different than anything I have ever experienced.

Yup. My ds does too except he doesn't "whisper" very well. :tongue_smilie:

I would be very surprised as I am the principal and this is a Christian school. :D But, honestly, if my son were attending a public school and his teacher led a non-christian prayer every day we would take other factors into consideration before reacting such as: - is there rabid proselytizing going on? Then we would leave. - do we feel it is a great school in every other way and it is just the prayers that bother us? we would not join in the prayer but we would continue there - is the demographic make-up of the school such that this prayer would be common to most others and we are the minority? then we hand a hint of what we were getting ouselves into and we would deal with it or leave. I wouldn't try to change everyone else; I would just look for more like-minded people elsewhere. But I prefer to go the peaceful route when possible.

So here's the deal... the church we went to in the U.S. had children's church during the entire service so I dropped my little guy off and went to the sanctuary. Here in Malaysia we have found a church we LOVE but they do things a little differently. The children stay with parents until about half-way through the service and then they go to their class. I have no problem with either model. The problem is my 5yo. He cannot sit still in church to save his life! He's driving me crazy! All he does the whole time is goof around and act squirrely. He's not a brat by any means. He just has ants in his pants. So I was arguing with myself in my head during church today. What is REASONABLE behavior to expect from a 5yo in church? Can I reasonably expect him to sit stock-still for 45 minutes? Am I too lax or am I expecting too much? I've just never had to deal with this before. Before you answer you should know that I am not a big follower of the "Pearl" family mentality and while I am not "against" spanking per se, I don't think spanking my kid is the best way to help him appreciate church, ya know? So this is a two-part questions: 1. what is reasonable to expect? 2. how do I make that happen?

If you like Rob Bell you will probably like Donald Miller as well. I didn't care for either (too much theological navel-gazing for my tastes) but I know Miller's "Blue Like Jazz" is hugely popular among the emergent folk. I am huge John Piper and John MacArthur fan myself!

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Well, you would need to read ALL of my words posted on this thread to understand where I am coming from...and maybe even then you still won't. But I stand by what I've said.