I think we are close to 170 inches now. I moved here because I missed winter.....I think someone wants to make sure I really LOVE winter! ;) (truthfully, I think I am finally sick of it.)

Yes and no. She was only 32, she had me at 19. She did have two more children at 33 and 34. That was when the diagnoses started. First PPD, then Bi-polar. Alcholism did not become official until I had left home and my younger siblings had just hit the 12-14 range. I never really thought about that. The hormones, combined with us turning into teens seems to be toxic. Now she is in her 50's so hormones are again an issue.

I cannot say enough good about the Dr. Karyl McBride book. Painful read right now, but has hit on some things that I always knew were wrong and yet when I would express my thoughts or feelings on them I would be shamed or attacked. I was also confused by how my mother could be such a supportive Mom until I turned 12 and then suddenly change so much. I see that there was very unhealthy dynamics before 12, but she didn't become mean until around age.

Thanks, I cannot express how much your gracious support has helped me. :)

No, in my calm response I was extremely direct, upfront and honest about what I was struggling with in regards to her, how certain methods of communication were coming across and what I thought we needed to proceed into healthy and healing dialouge. The counselor was pretty surprised and happy that I was able to articulate myself as well as I was. It was after my response that she flipped out again, accusing me of lying, raging against her and so forth, and I had to ask her not contact me again until she was in a better place to listen. That said, PTSD is something I have dealt with in the past and do still struggle with in different circumstances. ;)

The appt went really well. I like that she is very conservative in "labeling" my mother, but after having me read the texts from today she noticed that there were some very narcissistic attributes displayed by her. Basically, when I dont reflect back to her the beautiful response she wants she has a melt down and attacks and shames me. The therapist does a lot of art therapy, which we both wondered how that would work with me being and artist and being a little triggered by my chosen/shared medium with my mother atm. Today was more about just sharing and getting to know each other, but she did really help me to see that one of the reasons I get so stressed when my son has a rage episode is that it is actually triggering me back to when my mother would rage at me. She did send me home with two books Will I Ever Be Good Enough- Healing the daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists. I like the Boundaries books. It has been a few years since I read them, but I do have them and the co-dependant ones by Beattie here at home. I am ggoing to go read a bit and think about journaling. Maybe, just maybe I will do piece of fiber art as a journal cover and see how that goes. :)

Thanks again ladies. Well, I thought I had her blocked. Guess I friending her and the little sign that says it will go to the other folder and blocking her number on my phone was not enough of a hint. After 3 days of silence she started in with the fb messages again. I very calmly responded, but did express that right now she is not respecting boundaries, saying hurtful things, shaming and trying to use other family members to get me inline. That we were at an impass so long as she is unwilling to really listen. She came back accusing me of "raging" against her and using her as a "whipping post." As well as, lying about the past and hurling hurtful words at her. I again asked her not to contact me until she was in a better place to listen. (May never respond) The only reason I responded at all is first I wanted to see if she would hear me, and secondly I figured the counselor could help me sort it out this afternoon. It just sucks. Thanks for all the kind responses. In the past I was pretty good at handling this, but the last eight year cease fire has me a little off my game. ;)

Thanks ladies. I live very remotely and there is not an al-anon group close so I am doing a web version (which is where my confusion on acceptance came from). I did al-anon years ago so I am trying to retrace some steps. I am meeting with a counselor who looks to be very knowledgeable in this area later today. Right now, I can just feel myself cycling through a lot of grief and anger. She and I were in a good place. We were doing art shows across the country together, starting to teach workshops, and poof! Gone for now. All my normal art coping skills feel tainted right now. I know it will take time, but ugh!!!! Thanks for just reminding me that I am not alone in this. :)

I need to ask a question about dealing with both of these issues in a parent. Please be gentle with me. After 8yrs of sobriety my mother is back to drinking, my mother is also bi-polar. Towards the beginning of her sobriety, as one of her steps, she called and apologized to me for many things she had done to me as a teen....including marrying my step father (they had just divorced at the time of apology). I was visiting her a couple weeks ago and everything has done a 180. The healing and mending in our relationship is gone. She is back to extreme emotional outburst, lying, saying cruel things, not respecting boundaries and is remarrying my step father. I admit this has thrown me and I am seeking IRL help for dealing with this. The question I have is in regards to acceptance. I am reading a lot about accepting my mother as she is. I get that and I want to (I am pretty easy going), but how do I stay emotionally safe? I tried just not engaging her when she becomes mean, but it honestly doesn't help. Her insecurity means that whenever I distance myself she ramps up the volume. Right now I have had to block her on my phone and fb. I know this is not extremely coherent, but I am trying to figure out what "acceptance" looks like in this type of situation. :(

I think it depends on the denomination and the vocubulary the denomination uses.

Alywedd, does not have a disdain for Christianity.....just certain churchianity words. ;) *she doesn't know it, but she was helpful during some discussions years ago that led me towards EO. :)

Isn't it a sign of good mental health to be able to poke fun at oneself? ;)

In name only. ;) I knew who I meant in my head. It doesn't help that I view the two men very similarly. :P

I wonder if DW owns the Inc. side of things. If so, he may be the only one who could shut it down. IT would be very telling on the repentance issue, although I do feel for the families that would lose a source of income. OTOH, I hate the idea of people making money of it, I just wish there was a way to transition them towards another job. :(

Hoppy, that was one of our hardest lessons as well. It wiped is out socially. We learned to never again have all of our relationships in the same basket. :(

Well, if using the online program includes part of Omnibus then you are getting Douglas Wilson material. I believe he is the editor of it. I asked a similar question a couple years ago and had a very eye opening experience when I was in contact with Veritas Press. This household will never use them. You can read the whole story here http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/297952-omnibusdouglas-wilson-fact-gathering/page-2?hl=%2Bsimka2+%2Bveritas+%2Bpress&do=findComment&comment=3007287

I will let much wiser posters than I deal with the pedophilia issue, but the courtship....yeah, I got that one. The point isn't that the girl can refuse. The point is that she has no ability to initiate. I am a product of the original modern courtship ritual as put forth by Richard Crisco and later adapted by Wilson and ilk. I know it well. It puts our daughters in a powerless and passive position as they wait for someone to approach their father. She is not allowed to initiate or express interest. I hope that readers can piece together more of my story. I believed in courtship, I lived it out, I was primed for a domineering and controlling church experience, my husband was conditioned to submit to his authorities....even in regards to his bride. How were we conditioned and set up? Separetunion, you have brought up a foundational contributor to answer that question. The very courtship model you are praising. Intelligence of the women has nothing to do with it. Being allowed to use that intelligence, being trusted with that intelligence, being supported and encouraged in tha intelligence....has everything to do with it.

I wanted to address this a little but. Hopefully what I share will help others to understand how this "might" infiltrate their own church. No one in our very large, contemporary church would have ever known that our Sr. Pastor and his wife embraced the same ideaologies as Phillips. They were way to image savy to let that out. I only knew, because I was staff. I was steered towards Vision Forum products while being menotred in my PW's home. There are many slightly more contemporary, evangelical, progressivish books and teachers that complement DP while being just a shade on the more tolerable side for mainstream Christians. For example (and some of my examples are becoming outdated, because I have been away from this scene for awhile) http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cover-Promise-Protection-Authority/dp/0785269916/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383703794&sr=1-8&keywords=john+bevere http://www.amazon.com/Women-Only-Revised-Updated-About/dp/1601424442/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383703889&sr=1-4&keywords=for+her+eyes+only http://www.amazon.com/Cleansing-Seminar-Complete-Homework-Package/dp/B000PCMAKQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383704121&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=cleansing+stream+seminar+workbook I strongly encourage people to read the 1 and 2 star reviews of these books. So, how does this play out in non-denominational church? I guess I will explain how we did it. :( When you came to the church it was your typical Rock band, coffee shop and bookstore church with the AWESOME children's and youth programs. Rock walls...we had them. Flashing lights, smoke machines, scrim sheets, sanctuary that looked like and industrial warehouse with chrome....yup we had it. Super friendly greeters at all the doors, trained to take you to get your free coffee, help you get your kids scanned in and find you seats. There would be a lot of talk about freedom from religion, freedom to have relationship, freedom from controlling pastors and churches. It would look good. Once you decided to make us your church home the real fun began. We had what were known as the 4 bases. The first base was membership. Super easy to join, statement of faith and get to know the staff a bit. At the end of the series of meetings you would basically be so far invested that when base 2 was explained you probably would not bat an eye. Base 2 was maturity (discipleship). Seems reasonable, right? Now, to become a member you had to agree to complete Base 2 within a year and you could not serve as a volunteer....even in the nursery until you went through. This is where would do book studies like "Under Cover" and "Bait of Satan," because we had to teach you that questioning and being concerned about the leadership (bait of Satan) was tantamount to rebelling against your spiritual authority (Under Cover). Remember, we already got you to join the church at this point. If you were seen to struggle a bit with Base 2 it would be strongly encouraged that attend the next Cleans ing Stream seminar weekend. Base 3 was ministry. If you didn't do this base the staff pastor you volunteered under would get in trouble. You would be whipped back and forth between being stroked and validated for even being there, encouraged to DO more for God and brought into the secret shared pain of the staff that deal with so few people who really care about God and serving Him. After all, isn't it something like 10% of the congregation does 100% of the work. :p The last base would be base 4: Mission. From here we would launch you on a local missions event, church mission trip and this was the pipeline from which we funneled the volunteer force for our satellite campuses. It would take the average person about 1.5 years to make it through all the bases. Of course we made exceptions for people we really wante dinvolved in certain ministries, but within 1.5 years it needed to be completed. Sounds pretty slick, right? What I didn't see...until my counselor pointed it out...was that it was a trap. We made it look so wonderful, exciting and healthy. We hooked parents on their weakest areas...fear for their children/teens...and by the time you maybe felt a bit uncomfortable or worn out the law of investment came into play. The law of investment is basically when you say, "Well, I have already put some much effort into this," or "But, my kids are so happy with the friends," or "We have made so many relationships, surely all these people cannot be decieved." This is followed by, "I will give it one more chance." By then though, when the next uncomfortable moment happens you are even further invested. You start explaining away what you see, or tell yourself your not being submissive to your spiritual authorities, or that the enemy is trying to give you an offense and if you leave the flock you will be a lone sheep for the wolf to devour. Can there be churches out there with a similar makeup that are healthy...yes, I am thinking of the one we modeled after. It had a base system. What it did not have was any of the above books or seminars. I write this out only in the hopes that it helps someone lurking, hurting, reading and questioning their situation. I hope it helps those that have a gut feeling about their situation, but are to scared or shamed to trust that gut feeling. Trust your gut. God gave it to you for a reason!

I would try if I were you, but will he want to come back? Is there another gym you could help him get to and even have dd work privately with him there? I have been on the other end of this as a riding instructor and it has meant the world to when students follow me to another location. Especially, because my personal ethics won't allow me to ask them to leave. I have had great parents find me different barns to teach at and I know I would not have returned to the barn that let me go over someone else's word.

some of those ladies are hilarious!!!! :)

Margaret, that is my Great Grandmother not the OP's. I was just using our situation as an example. She is definately an alcholic, but a very high functioning one and her doctors can find nothing wrong with her liver. At this point we love her the way she is and put up with drinking, becuase it would be more harmful to her to take it away. The best my mother can do (her caretaker) is limit a bit when she needs to take other medications. All of this is being done under the guidance of multiple Drs. Of course they encourage her to stop, but all acknowledge it is not likely to happen and should not be forced on her.

Are your kids seeing the comments? Other than block or delete I would not do anything. We have a similar situation with the kids Great Grandmother (same age approx) I have just told them that Gigi is 75, an adult, and has the right to chose her own drinking philosphies at this point in her life. Yes, drinking sherry from a coffee cup before breakfast, all day, and in the middle of the night is not healthy, but she is not going to change at her age.

Margaret, if the teacher will not see it you go above her head. If the principal won't deal, you go to the school liason officer or the olice dept. All you have them do is start a file acknowldeging your complaint and concerns. The liason officer "shoul" be required to follow up with the principal. Then you tell the principal and teacher that you will be present at all practices and meets and if anything crosses the line you will not be addressing the student, but will let the teacher know and follow up AGAIN with the officer. ....and yes, I did end up contacting the liason officer in regards to the boy who tried to rip my son's face off. My situation has ended up well, in that th eother chid's Mom after her intial shock (and realizing I follwed up with the police) has been the poster child for what a parent of a bully should do.

Actually, you are right. It does go for the men (just not for the perpatrator). What you are describing is what saved my marriage. I had to recognize that dh was as much a victim as myself in many ways. Now, after our exit if my dh had not done the very difficult work of seeking out his own secular counselors to help sort out his wounds and what part of his upbringing had poised him to be vulnerable to this dynamic, we would probably be divorced. Now, if dh had refused to face reality and wanted to keep me forced into that "role" he would have been both victim and abuser. It is the cycle. Thankfully, although we hit a very rough patch he was willing to do whatever it took to become a healthy adult and a great husband. I have shared with a few people one of the things that he did that was a turning point for us. This was about 1.5 years after leaving (healing from these situations is very lengthy) and I was still very angry at dh for keeping us in that church as long as he did (I had pleaded for years to get out, but all I had was my gut feeling that something was very wrong and as women in that dynamic it would be seen as controlling if we left, becuase I wanted to) I told him I would remian living with him, raising the kids and working on myself, but he needed to agree to pay for me to go to nursing school so that I could choose to remain in the relationship by choice and not out of neccesity. I made it clear that once I could support myself I might still chose to leave him. He did not bat an eye, agreed, and was incredibly supportive. When I say that the woman "may" not have had much of a choice I am only speaking to the dynamic between the woman and DP. It is very likely that her dh is a victim as well. (not in exactly the same way, but in a very similar vein). If the dynamic was reversed and we were discussing a charismatic, powerful and dangerous woman who had control of her followers/employee's finances, families and spiritual life and she preyed on a man under her authority he would be just as much a vicitm. Same if it were a male/male or female/female. Gender has nothing to do with it.