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HAd the same problem, but because I knew in my heart it was important to me, I put dd in a class. So she's learning latin, but I'm not exactly learning it along with her. It's going well, I'm glad, and we'll continue this way. FWIW, to go this route, I think you have to wait until your child is around 7th grade to handle a class like this on their own, independently. HTH, Robin

Thanks, everyone, for all the input! Yes, we do utilize the worksheets and up until now I have found them to be an excellent substitute for a "workbook"... but I'm beginning to see that there *is* ia need for regular cummulative review, which the worksheets don't provide (worksheets usually give lesson practice only). I absolutely love R&S for grammar, and can't believe I'm contemplating the switch, but then I looked at a sample page of ABeka and believe it or not, there was an explanation on one of the student worksheets that was actually clearer than what we've received on the same topic from R&S. And I thought nothing could be as straight forward and concise as R&S! Go figure!! Hmmmmm.... still thinking about it... I hear what you are all saying. I'll let you know what we do and how it goes. Thanks again! Robin

Brain still intact... for the moment... I've heard cc transfer credits disqualify you as an entering freshman, and that in and of itself disqualifies you from some scholarships. HAve I heard that wrong, too? ACK!!!! Robin

Happy Birthday, VH! Hope you are feeling well and having a splendid evening! Robin

You can watch all the performances here: http://tv.popcrunch.com/ Honestly, though, you didn't miss much. They all had to sing..... * * * * * * * Wait for it! * * * * * * Dolly Parton songs! GAH!!! HTH, Robin

Jane, thank you for asking this question and getting the conversation started. I'd say thank you to everyone who responded to let them know how much I appreciate them as well, but then I would look like an obnoxious thread hog (I'm probably dangerously on the edge even now :)). I have gotten a LOT out of this thread. Thanks to everyone! Roboin

Beth, to you and everyone else who has shared their experience, I just want to say thank you SO much for taking the time. We'll be facing this decision in a couple of years and I apparently haven't had the whole picture. All these varying comments have been so helpful! Thanks to all of you! In a couple of years I'll be asking whether or not community college dual credit courses hurt scholarship opportunities. If I try to think about that now, my head will explode :). Robin

I apologize, Janet... I didn't intend to put you on the spot, making you feel compelled to criticize Debra Bell. Since I had listened closely to her suggestions, I just wanted to know in what areas her experience might be limited (so I'd know when to be a little more critical of her advice). I was looking for fair criticism, not bashing... I'm really sorry if it came across otherwise. Thanks for sharing your experience... you are right and I agree with you. Robin

You know, I think that all of our experiences are quite limited and I suppose that's one of the problems of getting information from a forum like this. Probably the best thing would be to check specifically with one's potential universities for their advice. Your comment about Debra is interesting. I always thought she was pretty well informed, but maybe that isn't the case. It wouldn't be the first time I've been snookered :). I'd be interested to know when else you've doubted her advice, just to know what sort of things I should be on the lookout for (I took a lot of notes at her sessions - it all sure "felt" like good advice! LOL I would go so far to say that she was probably second only to SWB in my past ten years of attending conferences, which caught me by surprise since I didn't care for her book much). Robin

Barb, this is exactlywhat Debra was saying... that there is an unknown due to lack of standardization at the CC level. However, as you said, sometimes the cc experience can be superior. There are a couple of instructors at our local cc that I pray are still then when my dd is old enough... I'd enroll her in their classes over AP any day, just for the experience, and regardless of how prestigious it did or didn't look. Robin

I really don't think so. There is no way whatsoever she could offer AP classes to the children of each of the several hundred people sitting in that auditorium that day. It was a session on college prep. She didn't say that CC was bad or that you shouldn't do it, she just went down the list of ways to look good on your application and/or get some of your freshman credits out of the way in advance, and she discussed AP, CC and things like CLEP exams. I think she was being completely honest when she said that AP is usually considered more prestigious than CC. Not that CC isn't accepted or isn't impressive.... just not as much so. She even said that often CC courses are not accepted for credit, but they do demonstrate the student's ability to work successfully in a college setting, which is nothing to sneeze at. She didn't say not to do CC or that it wasn't valuable. Just making a side by side comparison I am hearing more and more around here that CC courses aren't always transferring... even our local cc says to check with your University to make sure your courses will transfer. I got my first two years at local cc, and I'm a big supporter of it... but depending on what you want to do and where you want to go, it isn't always embraced. Fortunately, our local cc district has worked out agreements with state universities to guarantee smooth transition, but that wasn't always the case. Engineering schools wouldn't accept the cc calculus courses, for example. Robin

I have enjoyed reading this part of the thread, Kelli. It has helped to remind me that my dd's academic success beyond highschool (or success in anything, for that matter) will be largely determined by whether or not she owns it for herself and is motivated to continue forward. All we can do is lay the best groundwork we can, but they gotta get off their duffs and treat it like the springboard it is (or can be). I chuckled at the comments about not knowing what a professor wants, and the other unexpected hurdles you run into at university. It reminded me of my niece, who was awarded a scholarship to Rice University on math scholarship (no small feat!), but eventually walked away because of this sort of thing. One of the biggest problems she encountered was not being able to understand her profressors. None of them were American. What finally did her in was one of her junior level classes, where the professor kept talking about "PATH-uh-(undiscernible)-rum" and it was almost 1/3 way through the course before she finally figured out he was talking about the pythagoras theorem. She decided she didn't like math enough to spend two more years clearing these sort of hurdles. It wasn't that the math was too hard. So, in a way, this really can be true... overcoming academic challenges aren't always as difficult as overcoming the experience. FWIW, I was one of those who didn't go to college and didn't value education. Until I hit my 30s and couldn't advance at work. So I put myself back to school... on my dime and in my spare time... and I was very successful. Nothing my parents could have done would have made me that tenacious and serious about it when I was 18. I had to arrive to that spot on my own. I intend to preapre dd for college and send her there, but who knows... she might end up like me... and might have to grow up before she'll take it seriously enough to do well. That will be her life if she does, and I imagine she will turn out fine either way :). Your success as a homeschooler is not determined by how well your child does in college afterwards (at least that's what I keep telling myself, while keeping a good college education on the map as our destination the whole time). Thanks again for starting this discussion! Robin

No direct experience here, but Debra Bell was the keynote at our convention last summer and she said that AP is viewed as much more prestigious than community college. Working with juniors and seniors, and getting them ready for college is her "specialty", so I do think she knows what she's talking about. I never knew this before. It's had me rethinking our long range plans... HTH, Robin

Thank you for this! YEs, one of my problems is the R&S is not getting done well. As much as I love R&S, I need to realize that something needs to change... either us or it! As I said above, workbooks are always completed regularly because they are portable and we take them in the car (and we do spend quite a bit of time in the car - more than I prefer!). Yeah... it's a "feel" thing. Thanks again! Robin

That's what I thought about R&S 9/10... and I don't know that I couldn't use it alongside a grammar workbook, to be honest. But I really do have my eye on other things for high school composition, to be honest. One thing I remember SWB saying when comparing ABeka to other programs in high school is that ABeka spends a valuable amount of time on developing a thesis statement... R&S covers this, too, but more briefly. Your daughter's experience is definitely a good testimony. Maybe, if I finish R&S through 8th, if I still feel like dd needs the review I can use the ABeka 11th & 12th handbook worksheets combined with whatever writing program we're using. Thanks so much for posting your experience! Robin

Good question - how do they compare time consumption wise? I will have to check into that. Right now, R&S is taking just a little bit too much of my time, because I'm trying to focus on other things this year. That's why I was hoping the workbook would be quicker and more portable (we do workbooks in the car on the way to music lessons, etc... next year we have more things to attend, so we'll be spending more time in the car... that's really one of the reasons why I think grammar will get done more regularly if it's part of our car school program :)). Robin

Ellie, have you talked to anyone yet who has actually finished R&S 9th & 10th grade? Everyone that I've talked to or seen posting here who has tried it has ended up dropping the course. I'll have to look closer at ABeka... the worksheets, especially in 11th and 12th, seem pretty quick and to the point (circle the misplaced modifier and put a carat where it should go). Drill, yes, but I'm not so sure I wouldn't put my dd through those two books even if I did complete R&S through 10th. SWB says that her mom made her review grammar every single year no matter what. And that it was a good thing. That recommendation definitely carries some weight with me... I'll also take a closer look at the drill and kill aspect of ABeka (something that I was not aware of, so thanks!). Thanks so much for the feedback. Let me know if you can direct me to someone who has actually done R&S past 8th grade - I would love to hear what they have to say. Robin

I really like the idea of the workbook format, and the consistent offering through 12th grade. Has anyone tried tried this and wish they hadn't? Or glad they did? Isn't content about the same? I know I'd have to use something else completely for composition if I went with ABeka. Work gets done more consistently when it's in workbook format around my house. That's one of the main reasons why I want to switch. I'd love to be able to hand over a few more workbooks in areas where they are available so that I have the time and energy to guide other subjects more thoroughly. Okay, I'm about 99% sure this is what I'm going to do because it feels right, but I'd like to hear if you have experience with this in case there's something I'm not considering. Thanks! Robin

Janie, I just thought of something - isn't Omnibus a three year cycle? How you will combine that with Spielvogel over four years? If anyone has a plan for how to do this, I'd love to hear it. Robin

I have R&S 5th grade text, and I agree that it is heavily biased toward the mennonite spin on events... it's actually a pretty good book because it is straightforward, concise, is not overly pro-American and covers plenty of Canadian geography and history (and actually discusses things that most American history texts don't, such as criticizing the colonists at the Boston Tea Party for destroying another's property). For those reasons, I've enjoyed referring to it, but I don't see how you could use this in a classroom setting unless there are a lot of mennonite families there... the kids will take these books home and their parents will look at them, and likely be uncomfortable. Robin

If I had to do it over again, I would do SOTW in 5th and 6th (over 2 years like Sonlight does). Then American history in 7th (Hakim, maybe) and geography in 8th (compare BJU's 9th grade text with Abeka's 8th - it's pretty good and gives an overview of world history by region. Actually, that is what we're going to do next - BJU's geography... then I'll do history TWTM-style in rhetoric stage. I like the year in American history in middle school because I honestly think that ONE year of American history sometime between 7th-12th is a good thing. And I really like the geography course... so, to me, this is the best of both world.s HTH, and good luck! Congratulations on the success you've obviously had with this school - it sounds like they're really listening to you! Robin

Thank you for your responses in this thread! You are right - I am definitely looking for the sort of logic study that fits between grammar and rhetoric. I am certainly not dismissing modern symbolic logic, though (and I don't think that the folks at MP are, either). I'm not "throwing it out" or trying to turn back time, and nothing I've read in this thread indicates that anyone is suggesting I do so... but perhaps something went right over my head (which wouldn't be the first time! LOL). I picked up Cothran's text last night, and on the first page he briefly discusses traditional logic vs. modern logic. He does state that you will not find in his book truth tables or mathematical formulations, but then he states, "Despite a number of assumptions that traditional logicians find questionable, there is much in modern logic worthy of study." Then he says that to him, traditional logic has a closer relationship to ordinary human language and is a system unto itself which warrants separate study. Hence, he wrote a text. One with plenty of Venn Diagrams :). I really don't know where the idea is coming from that he is hostile to modern logic. Perhaps his reference to other traditional logicians finding "assumptions questional" highlights a common rub in academia, and he was being charged of hostility by association :). I do think he would argue that there is no substititue for traditional logic (just as you would argue there is no substitute for modern logic), and he argues for the importance of traditional logic in the classical trivium... but that's not the same as dsmissing modern logic altogether. They obviously both have valuable place and function. Oh well, I don't suppose it's my place to speak for Martin Cothran any further :)... I just want to make sure you understand that my original question was about when to begin the study of formal traditional logic (as opposed to informal traditional logic, not as opposed to modern logic). I apologize if it turned into something that put modern logic on the defense. Robin

I agree with you, Eliana. I hope I didn't sound like I thought only incredible posts about academics deserved rep... I give rep when I am encouraged and even did so once when I was completely humbled by someone's graciousness - she put me right where I belonged, even though that wasn't her intent :). Gosh, I sure hope I don't sound like a scrooge about the rep thing - like I don't think people should give it out more often than me or something. I don't do it that much mainly because I don't think of it!! My first reaction is to simply respond to the post, and when I do that, I usually forget about the reputation thing. I don't really keep up with who has how much reputation... I usually do it just to tell that person privately that they made a difference in my day that day (somehow or another). When I think about how many posts are out there that I probably would give reputation on, posts that I am unaware of because I haven't read them, I get stresssed out! I have to accept that there is simply not enough time in the day... so I read what I can and try not to fret about what I'm missing out on :). And if I stumble on something that really speaks to me that day, for whatever reason, I do the rep thing just to let them know their words were appreciated. So, in that sense, yes... I agree with you completely. Robin Robin