Yes, I think hospitality is key. There are a couple ladies I can organize this with, and they know folks in the church, so maybe we'll go that route.

We're fairly new at a large-ish church (around 400 and growing). I was asked to be on the Welcome Team. This team is fantastic for the first stage of new folks at our church. The greeters at the door are helpful, they ask you to write down your information, we're mailed a welcome card complete with a Starbucks giftcard, we're invited to a Newcomer's Lunch. However, I find that after the service when we all gather for munchies, it's hard to meet folks. I totally "get" that those that are there want to talk with friends. So unless one joins a bible study group, it's more difficult. At the meeting last night I was sharing some of this. They could see it, but they don't have anything in place yet for integration. I think maybe something like smaller socials (something easy) that mixes people up....but there are got to be other ideas. A small part of the problem is that though we have a property, we're still in a high school for Sunday mornings. We don't have Sunday school class and we only have the building for the morning. Once our church is built (in about two years), I can see the numbers go up quickly, and it'd be nice if we could get something in place now to help folks integrate more easily. (But also, with a new church we can have SS class, etc.) Any ideas are welcome! Thanks!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself. :grouphug:

No book suggestion but I hear duct tape can fix anything. Maybe it's worth a try? Oh kidding!!!!! :grouphug:

My thoughts have been revealed mostly on the other thread. Here's what I think... -you most likely won't be supported outside of a thread like this here as 99.9% of people have absolutely no idea what PD is about -most people will look at you like you're a bi*ch. Even religious folks. Moreso religious folks. That's just the way it is. Amen? :) -like you, I've cut ties with my mom but not my sister -like you I had been on an emotional rollercoaster with my sister, who I believe SHOULD have supported me with certain things in dealing with my mom -guess what? Now sister is going to have to deal with the EXACT same poop I've been dealing with with my mom....AND she's not going to have my support -emotionally cut ties with your sister. Not physically, just emotionally. You cannot ever, ever, ever save her. The best thing you can do for you both is to emotionally cut ties with her (Dr. Drew said that about addiction and I think the folks with PD do have some addiction to attention) HTH! No condemnation here. I left religion for relationship. It's so much nicer. :) Hope you find peace along your journey. It's a grieving process. Allow yourself time to grieve.

:grouphug: I know. I know.

Thanks, hkchik. I agree with you. This kind of thread was an absolute lifesaver to our family. To me. Without this kind of forum to be able to discuss something that has paralyzed our family for years, I can honestly say that physically I'd be doing way worse than I am. The stress that we endured in 2009 alone with my mentally ill family members left my hormones in havoc and I'm still paying the price. I desperately needed answers but didn't know where to turn (the local mentally ill support group had both mentally ill and family members of mentally ill people...and my mom was a part of it, so that wasn't going to help). And I'm still in the grieving process, so Audrey is partially right. I AM angry. I am ticked that when my mom got herself into a VERY very serious quandry, I asked two trusted people (her friend and her pastor) to help support her while my dh and I went to talk to her, and they both said no. This, I truly believe, was because of her antics and I think that we were the ones left looking crazy. I'm ticked that my mom left my child with a psychopath (long story, but there really was a psychopath living with her)...and moreso that I was duped by society and church into believing that my mom deserved every right a grandparent should have to my children. HA! I'm ticked that the majority of Christians do not support us in our decision to become estranged from my mom. I'm ticked that my dh and I literally saved mom's life, and she turns around and slanders my name to friends (apparently I'm a horrible, horrible person). Yes, that's pride. I recognize it. I'm ticked that I have to gently explain to my four kids that they cannot see Nana anymore...I mean, how do you do that with little ones? (We've found a way, but it's painful.) And no pill will make this go away. This is who my mom is. This is who she chooses to be.

On one of my previous posts, I referred to women on this board that have helped me through this whole process of dealing with those in my life with mental illness. You, kalanamak, have been one of those sweet, experienced woman that have guided me through this tough process, giving me many nuggets of information that has really helped this process. Thank you!!!!

What you're saying has been my experience.

That is true...I described forgiveness as one owning the pain they caused another. That is actually RECONCILIATION!!! oops!!!! Good description!

The only person on this thread who said that those with PD are monsters and beasts is you. That has been the only direct name-calling that's gone on. The rest of us are on a journey of discovery, learning about what PD are and how it's affected us. And you know what? It's about time! Finally I can see I'm not alone. Finally there's a name for all the craziness, manipulation and destruction I've (and my husband and children) lived with all my life! You mention the bashing is continual...this is a THREAD about PD. Of course the stories will all be about...PD! If you don't like it, then don't read this thread. I went back and reread every single entry. This has not been a thread of bashing, but sharing stories and resources. And yes, families have been wrecked. For my family, I will not blame my mom solely on the family wrecking. I take the blame, too. For too long I thought that her manipulation, lying, controlling behaviour was ok and that I was being a good daughter by allowing her to do it. But with people with PD there seems to be no in between. It's impossible to make boundaries with my mom. So being able to have threads like this where I can learn about it and hear others' stories and realize that this really truly ISN'T ok behaviour, and to be led to other sites that have given me, as a VICTIM, much information...there are no words to tell you how indebted I am to this board and the ladies on this board that have shared their experiences and stories with me. It has freed me.

I know, eh? One time my mom combined a few things they said she'd do. They said that one with NPD would suggest family counselling (and they go into great detail about what would happen in a session...which described exactly what she did years ago with me) and they also said that she'd catch me off-guard, at a really bad moment for me, and have me make a big decision. So there I am, driving during a rainstorm to my MIL's home because she's dying and I don't have much time left. I'm mega-stressed, driving on a busy highway as fast as I can. My phone rings (it's illegal here to talk on the cell), but I see it's my mom, and though I haven't talked to her in MONTHS, and though she's already been told I didn't want her to see my kids without supervision, and though my dd wrote her a letter spilling her heart out to her nana and nana ignored the letter, Mom says, "I hear you're going to ____ to see your MIL. I know the kids are alone. Why don't I bring them a hot meal and stay with them overnight so you can be with your MIL?" Then I burst into tears (while driving on a crowded highway during a rainstorm, holding the steering wheel with one hand)...see, it all "seems" so nice, right? So I burst into tears and say that she hasn't spoken to dd #1 for MONTHS, dd #1 is upset with her and the next day was her birthday. Mom replied, "Well, she's upset anyway, so it won't hurt her to see me." WTH? Then she goes, "I've been wanting to talk to you about us going to family counselling." Oh just kill me now. NOW, you're going to bring this up? In the end she didn't go to my home and I immediately called my sister (who had told my mom) and told her to NEVER tell mom anything about my life again. Sheesh. ETA: I just want to say that *I* have been TREMENDOUSLY helped on the board by sweet woman who have given their time and expertise in helping me through this. It is SO nice that I can pay it forward and give you the information that they gave me.

Wayne Jacobsen of Lifestream Ministries defines forgiveness as another owning your pain. Have you ever had anyone say to you, "I'm sorry you're hurt about this. I'm sorry you're hurt about that"? It's so unauthentic. You KNOW when someone has owned your pain. Another ministry that helped me understand my mom was Luke 17:3 Ministries (http://www.luke173ministries.org/). The articles were SO SO SO helpful. It was like lightbulbs going off every two seconds. If my mom hadn't done something they'd explained, she was GOING TO do it...and she did!!!! I felt way better armed after reading about NPD on this site. And the "honour" your mother bullcrap...that's law and we live by grace. But we live by a faith that does not allow us (and our children) to be abused over and over and over again. My mom hurt my eldest the most (mostly because she was the eldest and at the time could see what my mom was doing). If she did it to my eldest, she would do it to any of my kids. Dr. Phil says something like, "The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour." And in all honesty, your personality disorder loved-one will never own up to their behaviour and feel your hurt.

Another poster on this board suggested reading Foolproofing Your Life by Jan Silvious. This book RADICALLY changed my POV on how to deal with my mom and has helped me with the grieving process. I cannot recommend it highly enough. The church is so willing to tell us to forgive and let us be doormats, but how often do we hear about fools in our lives and what to do with them???? This book will give you the freedom to say NO MORE. But the church still won't support you. Oh well!!! Amen!!! (As a sidenote, there is no way I can "tell" my story about my mom without it seeming so bizarre and believable. People just can't understand the craziness and manipulation...it is inconceivable! And then how to deal with it in a "Christian" way???? What I say is this: go with your absolute gut instinct and listen to your spouse, even if it's not what you've been indoctrinated with at church. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" will speak to YOU and tell you what to do. Trust it 100%!!!!!)

No problem. One huge issue I've had to overcome with myself is that I'm a Christian...and you know, (this is going to be said sarcastically) "Christians are supposed to forgive. Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek." Even my own sweet FIL, a pastor, recently said three times (I think he may have dementia!) that the church goes too easy on forgiveness without talking about repentance. (He then went on to ask how my mom was and was surprised that I still don't talk to her and told me I should. I said, "Dad, you've JUST told me three times within five days that you don't agree with the church's stance on forgiveness and now you're telling me I should not be estranged with my mom when she's been terribly manipulative and destructive to our whole family!!!") Here's the thing...you will most likely not be supported. I'm going to generalize, but NO ONE will understand what you're dealing with. Personality disorders are not well-known and people, in general, have NO CLUE how manipulative and destructive those with personality disorders can be. You will feel alone. But you're not. I've felt alone and it was a hard, hard, excrutiating (sp?) decision to become estranged with my mom, but I could not ignore her behaviour any more. DH was DONE with it all, and I'd gone against his warnings for YEARS on it. No, my immediate family was more important (my mom has bipolar but it wouldn't surprise me if she had NPD, too). Now my sister, whom I spoke of before, has BPD (among a host of other things...she proudly told me that BPD people love their diagnoses), and I have chosen to still have a relationship with her but I am no longer emotionally swayed by her. I have COMPLETELY backed off of her life and what she does and doesn't do no longer afffects me emotionally (well, for the most part). ;)

The reason why there is a subtle undertone that they are responsible for their own behaviour is that they are. Why is it that they act crazy around their family and normal when they conveniently need to? This is why it's called "borderline." As one person on this board put it to me (she works with mentally ill people): Behavior begets behavior. If you learn to cope with your inner workings in one way, you tend to continue that path. I work with a Russian psychiatrist. He says there are very few borderlines in Russia. Many narcissistics, but few cutters etc. Why? Because very little time and effort is put on giving these people attention. No attention, no behavior. There is a reason that meds can't help someone with BPD...because it's a behavioural issue. This is why psychiatrists work on behavioural techniques with them.

It's not bashing, it's sharing experiences of people who've been tremendously manipulative and destructive to ourselves and our family members for years and years. And for the most part, we "scapegoats" have been told time and time again we're supposed to sit there and take it because it's the "right" thing to do. Meanwhile it's tearing families apart, stressing us out (my hormones are out of whack because of the stress) and like one other poster said, we're the ones that look like we're crazy because around others, those with personality disorders choose to become "normal." If it'd make you feel better, I have a family member that has a combination of personality disorder, bipolar, anxiety disorder and OCD. If you'd like me to share one of a thousand stories about her, I'd be more than willing to share the "bashing" among other mental illnesses that have torn our family up. Meanwhile WE'RE the ones that aren't looked upon well because WE FINALLY put our foot down to the manipulation and craziness. And we're left to pick up the pieces of the many, many storms. You think I like explaining to our children why they can't see their grandma anymore?

Thanks for all the replies, Ladies!!!! I'm excited about doing this! I know it's not like giving child birth or anything, but still, it's new! :D

Can I use all white flour instead of a mixture of white and ww? Also, could you tell me how big your jar of pizza sauce is? In Canada we have very small jars of pizza sauce (bought it for the first time), but usually I use a large jar of pasta sauce and divide it among the two pizzas. I wonder if I'm using too much, though.

See, that's the problem right there! Good tasting and whole wheat do not go together!!! LOL!!!! :D

I have stones. :)

I'd like to make homemade pizza dough...it's been YEARS since I have. I'm not typically one to work outside a bread machine, but I DO have a Kitchenaid mixer, so I'm sure I can do this. :D I've just never dissolved yeast in water, etc. Also, when you include the recipe, could you let me know if it makes one pizza or two? I need to know if I should double it! Thanks!

Haven't read any of the responses, but I was fuming this morning from a very similar comment from SIL. I had been telling her I was thinking of taking in niece's kids for extra money to buy couches, but decided not to. She came at Christmas and suggested I work at the grocery store instead. She goes, "You could do the 5-11pm shift." (She's a JK/SK teacher with 12 kids in her class and works 4 days/week.) Oh ya, I'll work my FULL-TIME job teaching FOUR grades, then go work AFTER that until 11pm, no problem. Meanwhile my dh works 36 hours 4 days/week and if he took on a side job would earn 5-6x/hour what I'd make. Ya, that math makes PERFECT sense. I guess she doesn't know any math beyond SK. It's as if she doesn't think I work.

ITA. Things never are as they seem to be.

Maybe it's because I'm in Canada...they made a special version for us. :lol: