Anna's Mom -- You can have other kinds of positive reinforcement besides verbal. You might do the verbal more just when you feel like you are trying to head off an issue. In general, though, there is a ton that is non-verbal, or just a positive interaction. So hugs, "bonk" (we have a think where we bonk heads), brushing hair if she likes that, a smile when she comes in the room, a back rub, can all count, too. Whatever she likes. Also a lot of things you might decide to do for sensory reasons -- if she likes them, and it is positive, then that counts as positive. Then any positive interaction you have -- you read her a book in your lap, you do something together you both enjoy, you go for a walk and it goes well, all of this counts, too. Anything that you know she likes, it is all going to count, in general, as positive reinforcement. Then, I have been told to minimize directives. Directives are necessary, but they should be as few as possible, and as often as possible something can be said in an informational way or a choice (between two small choices, not an open-ended choice). What happens is this: for a child with no behavior problem in general, you see her skirt up one time, and you might say "oh, sweetie, I can see your underwear," and she might do it a little more but you basically expect it to stop and are not making a big deal, and then it stops. That is how life goes with a child with no particular behavior issue. But then -- let's say you know every single thing is a battle, and you have your mindset of just waiting, waiting to see what is going to happen next. You have the same situation -- but without a lot of intent, you are never going to have that calm, cheerful, informational response. You will go to the directive: "do this." It sets up a situation where you have told your child to do something, and she does it or not. Notice when you give the information -- there is not this situation. She can take a minute and figure out what she wants to do with this information. It is easier on her. You do also come across as a parent like "I think you are a responsible kid and will make a good choice." When you go straight to a directive all the time, you don't send that same message. But I have read that when special needs kids have been observed for this, they will find that the parent/teacher/caregiver is often giving hundreds of times more directives than are given to a child who does not have special needs. So there is a huge need to try not to use directives all the time. And a lot of it has to do with trust -- do you trust the child to make a good choice, do you give the child an option to make a good choice. When you are always telling them and telling them exactly what to do, you do not trust them. You also do not give them a chance to develop responding to information by making a good choice. I have read a lot of examples of this, where they compare how we might talk to a child with or without special needs, when it is the same situation, and it is always pretty depressing and I always think it is something where it takes a lot of effort to try to make space and time for a child to take a second or minute, but then they do something, instead of just telling them to do it. There can also be a point where kids are told what to do so often, they will just stand there waiting to be told to do something, even though part of them knows what to do ----- they have just been kind-of trained to wait for the directive, and maybe they don't know if they are allowed to do it on their own. But directives are a part of life, too, it is not like they are bad or should go to zero. They should just be proportional, they should not be vastly overused. You can find information about how to phrase things in a way that is not a directive. It can be like saying "your shoes are in the kitchen" instead of "put your shoes away." I had a book with a lot like this, I think it was 1,2,3 Magic? Not sure. It was something I did with my older son and it worked really well with him. It might have been that "how to talk so your kids will listen" book. I can't remember now. I am really excited by her staying on the path at the butterfly garden! That is awesome! I hope that is something you can build on :) I also agree -- it sounds like it makes sense to separate what you think is willful, and what you think is not willful. That makes a lot of sense. Also, I don't think you may ever get an easy child. You may have to keep on top of things and be really, really intentional and on your A game and all those things. Even with or without medication if it is recommended and you choose to try it. None of it adds up to an easy child. But you have a really cool child! And easy children can have their own problems. I talked to a mom from church earlier this year, about how her daughter would not stand up for herself at all in any situation, and would often do things other children told her to do, not that they were bad things, but just like she always did things just how they wanted. It is kind-of the opposite problem, but it is something this mom is having to work on, too. What it is not, though, is something where she is getting embarassed in public over it. But that is a kind-of shallow thing, to think something is better or worse just b/c of getting embarassed in public. I really find, too, when I am feeling confident, I am not going to get embarassed, b/c I have this feeling like, "I've got it," and I think other people around me see that, too. Maybe my son is doing something, but I am handling it, and that is life, sometimes kids do things. When I didn't feel like I knew how to handle it, I was not confident at all.

My son does not have dyspraxia but he does not have good coordination, he used to be in OT with it as an issue. His OT used Wii as a reward with any motion game. He would pick to play the sports-type games, and they are also motion-based. I don't really know to what extent it was therapeutic for him. It was more of a reward. If you can try to get a game with really easy levels, and make sure he seems like he likes it before you buy it. For a lot of things like that -- my son is behind the recommended age levels by about 2 years. I would not look for something for his current age and up, but for something 2 years younger than him and up. That is partly my son, though, he doesn't want to do something he feels like he is bad at, when it comes to coordination activities. He gets too frustrated. I did not really pursue this line b/c there were other things for him to do, and at the time, Wii was the only thing out, really. I guess X-Box 360 was out, but we were not going to get it anyway.

It is funny, there is a lot of preparation that goes into "not" doing something, sometimes. I am "not" going to give a reaction.... sometimes I think it is harder than giving a reaction. I am used to it now. But again -- when I can see that something works for my son, it makes me want to keep doing it, even if maybe it looks bad on the outside. I just have to think I am going to tough out some tough times in public, and then hope it will be worth it. And, he continued to have some behaviors at church only, that he didn't have other places, and I realized at a certain point, it is partly that some things about church are hard for him, and partly that I don't want to allow him to "cause a scene" in church. For restaraunts -- if I took him to McDonald's at 2:30 on a weekday, well, I don't really care if he might do something embarassing. So for a little while we practiced "how to act in a restaraunt" by having practice runs to McDonald's at a very, very slow time of day. There would be nobody else there, and it is a big enough McDonald's that we could be in a corner away from the kitchen and not even be around an employee. B/c I do not want to bother someone in a restaraunt or at church. The biggest problem was stores, and I also figured out that there are some very slow, non-peak times at the grocery store, during the day. I do also think -- a lot of the older customers who are usually shopping in the daytime, have been a parent and probably had some difficult time in the grocery store. I do also live in a friendly place, which is helpful. I also used to tell myself -- that really, I am doing the general public a favor, by doing something that is very recommended for my son -- even if maybe it looks bad for a short period of time. But I was doing what was recommended by a therapist, and it is also what the pre-school (special needs) thought would be good, and they all wanted me to be consistent between what they were doing. So I kind-of also felt like I needed to be consistent or it could throw off the pre-school teacher, who was working really, really hard with him and is a lovely person. I think LaughingCat has a good idea, though. If you have something and it works, that it works is really the most important thing.

I am glad you have made a decision! That makes a lot of sense. I always like happy endings, and this sounds like it is one :) She can always go back to outside school another year.

Well, I have ignored bizarre behavior maybe more bizarre than that. But I was getting advice from a therapist. I was in a bit of a situation where I was "held hostage" by my son's behavior. If he wanted to leave, he could act up, and I would leave. It is not that he thought of it that way. It is how it could play out, though. B/c the function of the behavior was "escape" and for "escape" you do not let the behavior succeed. So -- he wanted to leave the grocery store, and I had said "3 items," well, it didn't matter what he did (granted as a 4-year-old and a 5-year-old, so not a big kid), then we were not going to leave. But for this it sounds like maybe she was attention-seeking. It is hard to say. Maybe. If that is what is going on -- maybe she felt like she got your attention/your emotional response. Like -- maybe she wanted a response from you. You can give a response, but you don't have to give the response of "angry." You could try to give her another kind of attention. The other problem is that she could be getting attention from the strangers that reinforces the behavior. For me -- that would be the end of skirts with no shorts or leggings underneath, when we went somewhere. I also know that for me personally, with this one of my kids, I just cannot let him see "oh, if I do this, when we are in public, then I am guaranteed this response from my mom." I just can't let that happen. This means I can stay calm, and not get angry. I can not get flustered b/c I am embarassed. I mean -- I can't go to "zero," but I can go to "a very low number" instead of "oh, no, I am getting more and more embarassed and more and more flustered." That is what I need to do with this child. He really needs me to stay calm, and not have an overly emotional reactions to some things that he does. Another idea is to have a snack on hand. Another idea is to already be set up to know it could be difficult and be very positive. But this is really personal to my son, there are a lot of options. http://www.iloveaba.com/2011/12/extinction-procedures.html Anyway, this is what was recommended for me to do, it is also called "planned ignoring." It goes together with being really positive about what is going well, and trying to set up successful situations. There are things I cannot ignore (I cannot ignore aggression towards siblings, however I can respond in a calm way). But -- if a child is unhappy for a certain reason, or just not doing very well for a certain reason, it would be cruel to just ignore behavior that could be a sign of "hey, I need help here." I do not think that is okay. But if she has a pattern where she acts up until she makes you mad, and then as soon as you have gotten mad, she stops ------ there is a way to interpret this (not the only way, but a way) that is that she is trying to get a certain reaction, and she has learned that she can get this reaction if she does a certain thing. She will try to do it more and more to get the reaction she wants. The examples for this are: 1) your tv remote is starting to run out of batteries, but you still use it. Finally one day it is dead. You still spend some time fiddling with it and pressing buttons, and you fiddle more and press more buttons, and press them harder, trying to get it to work again. This is how you might escalate behavior, the same behavior that worked a few days ago, to get the remote control to work. Then finally you go "oh, I guess it is really out of batteries. 2) you put money into a soda machine, but the soda gets stuck. You tap it. Then you tap it harder. Then you shove it. Finally you give up. Those are two examples, that are to show "when you are used to doing things a certain way, you will increase your attempt to make it work that way, before you finally give up." And I know first-hand, if I can hear a soda jiggling inside the machine, it is going to take me a really long time before I give up on it getting un-stuck. If I didn't hear it jiggling, I would give up sooner. But overall -- I would try keeping calm. Say you are glad she is staying with you ----- hey, staying with you is really good. You can try to ignore it. With my other kids, I have defused things by acting like I am just a little amused, not overly amused, and then not paying much attention. They don't know they are getting to me. If they are in the mood to be a comedian, there are a lot of comedian things that I am happy for them to do, and b/c they are easy kids this way, they can switch over to telling a joke or something. I have started taking baby steps or long steps, to see if they would change to doing that. Just a distraction, and a "I am not bothered, you are not going to make me get embarassed in public." They are easy kids, and when *I* am not embarassed, *they* are the ones who might be embarassed. They get embarassed -- this is something that motivates their behavior. For them, if *I* am embarassed, no matter what they have done, they are not going to feel embarassed. They are going to feel powerful, that they are able to embarass their mom. I don't think it is appropriate for children to feel like they have this power over a parent. I just don't give it to them. But if I am not embarassed, then they have nothing to feel powerful about, and that leaves them space to become embarassed. And, they do. It is how they are. If my son is trying to leave a place he doesn't want to be, though, he is not thinking about "I feel embarassed." He just doesn't care. Also, if kids like the attention they get, they will like the attention, sometimes, even if you would think they would get embarassed. Sometimes the attention means more than the embarassment. But in my case, I had a therapist, and she recommended that I follow through with my planned (appropriately short, appropriately not too overstimulating) activity, she thought it would be something to help him. The other thing is ----- if there is a slight pause when she is not flipping her skirt, if she is just walking normally for just a second, then you can say something positive during that second, to try to help break the cycle, or if not break it ----- at least you are showing that you respond to her walking, and you don't respond to her flipping her skirt. It is not that it will work "that second" or "that minute," but there is hope that it will help long-term. I also had to look on some outings as practice outings for my son's behavior. I had to get out of a mindset where I could just go do some simple thing. I had to get in a mindset where I was going to do things planned around my son's behavior. That meant sometimes going on 3 short trips to the store, each one as a practice outing, and just getting a small amount of things. It does not make sense for doing what I need to get done, but it can help my son, and I can hope that it will pay off for me in the future. With my other 2 kids I have been strict and left places, that when we went, in my mind, I thought "we might stay 10 minutes, b/c if my daughter does x, and I ask her to stop, and she blows me off, we are just going to leave and go home." That was b/c she thought I might ask her 10 times, b/c I really wanted to stay at the park. It would work for her, b/c all she needed was to know I would follow-through, and she needed to take me seriously. All she needed to know was "if mom says stop throwing sand and I don't, she is going to make me leave the park." B/c she is easy that way! You know -- the child that people tell you about where "you just have to show them you mean business one time." I actually have a child who is like that in some circumstances. But b/c I have her, and I know how easy it is, I do not wonder "why doesn't it work with my other son?" I know it won't work with him, not b/c I am doing something wrong, but just b/c he is not that kind of kid. He is not highly motivated, and able, to not throw sand at a park so that he can avoid being taken home. So why would I expect it to work? I don't. But with my son, I also had a therapist who observed me interact with my son and gave me suggestions. So -- that is why it is so helpful! Maybe the same person would give you different advice, it is hard to say. Another thing ----- I used to ask and ask, why in the world would a child seek out a parent to get mad. And the answer I have gotten is not very satisfactory. But, this is the answer I have gotten: 1) it is a powerful emotional response, and children may just be drawn to them. 2) It may be stimulating in a way --- a normal non-angry reaction may seem very, very tepid and bland to them, and an angry/emotional response may seem like it is "average" to them in some way, b/c they may not pick up on more neutral facial expressions, but be able to pick up on more exaggerated facial expressions. 3) they like being able to make their parent have a response they know their parent wants to avoid, b/c it is powerful. 4) they may be a little drawn to the excitement of a back-and-forth, b/c maybe they were bored and it seems enticing 5) they may have no other way that they know how to get positive attention, and only know how to get negative attention -- they may really need to be taught appropriate ways to gain positive attention. 6) they may not have a "Plan B" for how to alter their behavior once they find themselves starting along a behavior that is part of a behavior pattern for them, they don't know another way to act in that situation. So those are ideas I have gotten for "why would a child want to get an angry response." But that is a little separate from the idea of "she was seeking attention, then she got it," like if you just thought "this is attention-seeking behavior." Anyway -- that is just some ideas I have. I think you can see what other people say. But remember, you control your emotions. Of course you are going to react on some level, but you don't have to react strongly. You can manage your reaction. Don't take it personally. If you think that she is tuned in to your emotions and your emotional reactions, and it sounds to me like she is, then I think whatever you do, you should try to stay calm and not overly-emotional when she is doing things you don't like. Then be really effusive the rest of the time. Make a point to try to be effusive and to start positive interactions with her, if there are any things where she always does well, make a point to do those things with a good attitude. Whatever you do, that will probably come in really handy. Your emotional reaction can make it harder for her to control her own behavior. It might not be like this for her, but it really might be. Edit: Since she sounds like she is dramatic, you could also try to let her dress up in a costume and pretend to be that thing, as long as there is basic good behavior of staying with you. Maybe if she was dancing along by you, that would be charming, and strangers would go "what a cute little girl." There are things like that where she might be able to get positive attention instead of negative, if she could handle something like that.

If he has ASD, it calls into question his test results. It is not that they are not accurate. It is just -- that number is not going to give the same information it would give about someone not on the autism spectrum. This is b/c there is likely to be a mix of skills, and that is just not what an IQ test is going to measure. So I don't think you are going to be able to have his IQ test number be a primarily useful number, as far as being able to draw conclusions from it. This is a personal opinion that I have: if your son was in public school, there is a good chance that some teacher might be noticing and bringing up ASD-related concerns. He might have these observations that would go with him to an eval. But that is not how we think as parents. So, you would not be filling out forms saying "yes, there has been a concern from his teacher." But for ASD, sometimes if you do not go in with those concerns and observations, and provide that information, then the tester does not have that information. So I think that is something to keep in mind, as to why you may not have had it brought up. If you never brought up any kind of concern, it would not be shown as something to evaluate for. But, it is really possible that you don't notice, or also that he is happy and well-adjusted at home, but wouldn't be at school. But those are not bad things at all ----- they are just things that are not going to result in you taking in "concerns that would point to ASD" when you are at the eval.

I agree. I just wonder why else he would be her teacher the next year, unless it was a small school. But going into the library or another room -- it is an option. It might not be an option without going through your doctor, or maybe it is. But it is an option. If it is possible to somehow improve things with the math teacher, if the counselor speaks to him or makes a suggestion to him, who knows, maybe it is helpful. And if not -- you can say you tried to work with him. If she is more approaching a point where it is "crisis" level, I would not mess around with that step. If it seems like there is time to try it, I would try it.

I did misunderstand. Thanks for clarifying :)

I would go to the doctor first and see what the doctor says. If the doctor thinks it is minor or if the doctor thinks you should pursue it as "more than expected." Then I would call and make an appointment with a school counselor. My older son had some anxiety when he was in 2nd grade, and the school counselor was helpful. I would ask those people their opinions and hope for good advice. My son (this is major "oops" territory for me) had missed school b/c he had stomach aches and I let him stay home. This turned out to make him more anxious about going back. But I kept thinking "this is the last day he is sick, he will go tomorrow." But then -- I took him to the doctor, and she was very nice, but she could not give him some absences as excused (this was appropriate). Then we went back. Anyway, we were close to falling into this truancy program. And when you are in that situation ----- well, it turned out that the counselor was extremely nice and helpful. He could go in the counselor's office sometimes. She checked up on him. She had helpful suggestions for me. His teacher made some helpful changes. So -- I think it is possible. The other thing with us, my husband was in Afghanistan at the time, and I think that made them want to be extra-helpful to my son. But I did find it helpful. I have talked to some other parents (at elementary school) who have felt like they got more blown off, and I don't know if that is because they didn't follow up, hadn't been to the doctor (I had a note I took in and the doctor had said to come back if things didn't improve for my son at school), didn't have their husband in Afghanistan, had more minor issues from the perception of the school..... I don't know. There was a combination of even more things (my son's handwriting, not being able to finish timed math facts, it was not a good year with my younger son, etc.). The teacher quit having him do the timed math facts immediately.

OhE, praise of partial progress is called "shaping." To make your goals, a lot of times you want to watch other kids his age. They are not perfect. They say "no fair" and pout sometimes. But if you do not know what your target behavior is, then looking at other kids of the same age is good to do. B/c if other kids are doing it, and they are not having kids go "I don't want to play with you anymore," then they are going to have their behavior self-correct a little, as they see that their behavior is acceptable or not to their friends. Of course adults do a lot of that. But for kids who are picking up on clues of what other kids will and won't put up with, are also picking that up just by being around other kids. But this is where -- you can only find out what kids an age do, by watching them. Six-year-old boys do not get to insipid cheerful smiles, that I see. I think a lot of the time, they can get away with saying almost anything, as long as they don't mess up the board, or get so upset they can't keep on playing. I have not really watched for this, but I have a 10-year-old son right now, and my little kids are 6-year-old twins, and that is what I think off the top of my head. You might ask on the Kindergarten board, too, maybe.

Cricket -- I agree, too. But as a parent -- all I am ever doing is copying other parents or asking more experienced parents how they do things. Sometimes I need to seek professional advice. Sometimes I get the help I need informally by talking to other moms. Sometimes something that another mom says, makes me realize that I need to get more help for my child. I think at a certain point -- people are adults, they can make their own choices. I also think, a lot of people here are at the point of wondering if they should seek out help in real life, and not just try to piecemeal things together by their own reading and research. And, I do not think anyone is anything but encouraged to do that. I also think it is interesting how such different things work for different kids.

Cricket -- I just wanted to clarify why it works for us. I think it can come across like it might work for more situations, but our situation is specific in its way. If it makes sense for me for one reason, that same reason might make it not make sense for another person. OhE -- we do not have a whole-day program ----- it is not appropriate for my son right now, I do not know much about that kind actually. We have either: "one activity, one thing going for it." This is like -- there is a specific problem happening at isolated times, and we have got a strategy. It might not actually be tokens with this, but it will be something behavioral. If it is a problem we get a suggestion from the therapist, or I basically know by now what to try. There is a combination of a lot of strategies and they are token-y, but it is not actually tokens. It is the same principle, though. The principle is always "reinforce desired behavior, do not reinforce undesired behavior." Then the principle is "figuring out what is going on with him." Then the principle goes to fba, which is good for my son for a lot of things, and goes to "ignore attention, do not allow escape, require good asking/waiting for access." But this is in context of all the good strategies (count-downs -- I count down from a number a lot for certain transitions, telling the schedule, giving a reminder, having our schedule set up so that he does not go from a heavily-preferred to a least-preferred, etc.). Then -- his stuff is short-term. And it is like: he is going to do something he either does not really like, or it is hard. Then he is going to have a lot of possibilities for the form of the token. We want him to be flexible and have different kinds of tokens, partly just b/c it is good not to risk him getting rigid with it (as a principle I guess, since he has autism, I am not sure), and partly b/c if we have options, if I feel like "aaaack, all of a sudden I am out and I need to get this situation going better, I am going to try to get him on a good track this way," well -- if I don't have any stuff with me, I can do "5 fingers," b/c we always have our hands. But sometimes it is better to get more tokens and go to 10, than fewer tokens and go to 5 ---- in the same amount of time, and for the same reinforcement at the end. It can be either way, you want to do enough that it works for the child, but also the least amount that it is possible to do, so that it is getting less and less, or else they are doing things to a higher standard. But the form may be: pennies, stickers, 5 fingers, poker chips or pennies with velcro tape on the back to attach to velcro tabs, blank stars on an iPad ap that he touches to fill in and have make a little "ting" noise, empty circles that he colors in or draws a smiley face inside of. If he is at a table, there is a format that they like, where there are 5 velcro tabs and then a picture of the reinforcer or the item is set there. For a while this was really important, b/c we wanted him to be able to see the reinforcer (if it was a toy or food) and have it be on the table, but for him not to grab it. At that time -- he could get a token, in the middle of whatever else, just for waiting for his reinforcer and not grabbing it. "Nice waiting, that is so patient, I like how you are waiting," etc. B/c maybe he is technically pointing at flashcards, but at the same time there is the goal of not grabbing the reinforcer. He can get a token for either thing. If he suddenly initiates something he does not always initiate, he will definitely get a token. Initiating should always be majorly reinforced. If he is using new language -- that pretty much stops whatever is going on, so his language can be reinforced by doing what he has asked. The token board can come, or it can just be "wow, you get all your tokens." And then he can get the reinforcer or not, it is up to him, he might rather do whatever he has asked for with his language. For my own day-to-day I do a lot of "first, then" statements, and I do a lot of just following through. For transitions, I am mostly able to focus on something good that is coming up next. For a difficult transition, I tie it to a snack. This is, the way I look at it, basically a direct, primary reinforcer being given for making the transition. But there is no token, just a desirable snack available after a cooperative transition. If it is not cooperative, they might have a less-preferred snack,and I say "I will save that for next time." I get a lot of mileage from flavored waters, and whether they get plain water or flavored water. Flavored water is very desirable. I have been working on reading to him more (with him paying attention) and I pair this with preferred snacks and drinks. It is just "we can have a drink during story," or "we can have a story during snack." But it is a good strategy with him. If I needed to at church (where he is pretty able to sit with me for the 15 minutes that is expected before going to the childrens worship) I could grab an offering envelope and draw 5 circles on it, and tell him I would take him for a walk or to the water fountain after 5 circles. When he was starting to sit in with me, that was much more involved. That is what it might look like right now. He has little toys and I got a big pack of "Puzzle Buzz" magazines for him, that I keep in a closet, and only take out for church (for those 15 minutes of church, lol). School starts next week and I do not know what I will do for the home-to-school transition. I may have a token system then (maybe just like -- "here are the things we need to do") and then if things are done cooperatively, give a little treat (very small food). Or if that is not working, I would go to more snacks. Or I would go to a more formal token system with a good reinforcer at the end. I can coordinate this with his teacher so he starts the day with something very preferred, which I can also tell him is coming up. There are a lot of possibilities and I talk to his teacher, too. We both want him to have a good transition to school. She doesn't want to start the day with a sad child any more than I do. But he has been in ABA almost 3 years now. Over 2 1/2 years. It has evolved to be less. But it is the same mindset. And with therapy and school, he is still doing formal tokens, and I am often a part of that in some way. But honestly he does respond to a lot of social reinforcement now. But I look at social reinforcement as, in a way, equivalent to a token. They are both positive reinforcement. One is just a token, and one is saying "awesome, thank you!" "You did that so fast!" "Wow!" "You did that all by yourself!" "I am going to call grandma and tell her what you just did!" Those are all equivalent to a token in a lot of ways. Of course social reinforcement is better, it is more natural. But it is still positive reinforcement. This is how the "first, then" statements go, too. What used to be a picture of a reinforcer, can now just be "first this, then the reinforcer" and not need the picture, not need the token board, b/c the same point can be reached without those items now, for a lot of things.

I can be frustrated by ignorance. "Just do this, it isn't that hard." If it is that hard, you must be doing something wrong, is how it can come across to me.

I don't know exactly what the re-set is. The way it works for my son: He cannot get positive reinforcement while he is engaged in a behavior we do not want to positively reinforce. If he is in the process of getting tokens (like -- he is up to 7 and he needs 10), then he is promised something when he gets to 10. After the unwanted behavior is not being practiced, he can start earning tokens again. If he has just gotten to 10, and in the second between him getting number 10, and delivering the reinforcer, he has an unwanted behavior...... well, for the most part, the principle that "you cannot be positively reinforced while in the middle of an unwanted behavior" still is the higher principle (there are exceptions and stuff, but in general). But what would happen then is, problem-solving, because this is not a good situation to have. It just is not. So most of the time, for my son, the problem-solving looks like this: We expected a certain amount before giving him the reinforcement, but either the amount we expected was too high, or the level of difficulty was too high, or it might have been boring, or it might have been something he has reviewed too many times, or maybe he needs to have a snack at this time of day, maybe it has been too much sedentary time and we need to schedule an outdoors break prior to this point, etc. etc. etc. In reality this is like: problem-solving time. But in the moment where you are going "oops, oops, oops, oops," he mostly can't get the positive reinforcement while in the middle of an inappropriate behavior. It is just -- that is probably not totally his fault, that is probably a structural problem in some way. But it is like -- you are already having the behavior. The bad thing is already happening. I know, unfortunately, that I just cannot reinforce an unwanted behavior ---- it truly confuses my son, it truly shows me to be inconsistent. I know you could say that it would be inconsistent to wait on the positive reinforcement until he is behaving again. That makes sense in theory to me. But in practice with him, I believe it is more confusing and inconsistent if I am inconsistent with an unwanted behavior. It sends him a message that he tries to interpret the best he can and so why wouldn't he try the behavior again, to see what happens, to see how he will react, when he does not know how I will react now, b/c I was inconsistent. That is really how I look at it. So -- that is not specific to how the re-set is done, I imagine it is a bit different. But I am sharing this principle anyway. It is also something where -- I know this is how it is for my son, I know it is more confusing to have some behaviors be okay sometimes and not okay sometimes, than to have a delay before getting a reinforcement he has earned. That is really how I feel with him, at this point in time. With another child with a different personality, or an older child, I think this might not be the right answer. I think it could be hurtful to a child. But I am sharing how that works with my child. Another thing, is that with my son, a behavior is anything at all. It is not just behavior like "is this child behaving" like it is used in general. Any observable action is a behavior for my son. Most of the time he has tokens now, it is like, he is working on therapy, and in 30 minutes he will have 3 breaks, and he will get about 5 tokens every 10 minutes, and then get a break. The tokens are just helping him to feel good (since he may not pick up on other forms of positive reinforcement as well as with a token -- he may not pick up on all the social reinforcers as clearly.... he picks up on them, but there are reasons to also have token). They are also giving him a *visual* of how much time he has left before a break. It is a time measurement, but it only measures time that he is acting appropriately -- if he is stalling, he doesn't get a token then. But as an adult -- we can still make it work out that he gets a break when he needs it, b/c we are not a slave to a clock or to the token system. It is also extremely helpful for his math understanding, and I do not think he would be anywhere near as far along in math as he is if he did not use tokens. For context -- he is really, really good with numbers up to 5 in every way, and he is decent and improving with numbers up to 10. If he is working for 10 tokens, and there are blank token spaces shown (an empty circle, an empty velcro tab) that will be filled in ------ he is just sitting there going "I have 6 circles filled in, and I have 4 left," and then "I have 7 circles filled in, and I have 3 left." It is so good for his math. There are also many motivating opportunities for him to have 5 circles filled in, and then tell him, "you did so good, fill in 3 circles." Then he is doing some really good math there, and it doesn't even seem like math. I totally understand this is not needed for many kids, like, oh, my other two kids. But it is so helpful with him. So, so helpful. But what is probably different about it: a behavior could be hitting somebody, or it could be answering a question. These are both equally a behavior, b/c they are both an observable behavior. A wanted behavior could be to answer a question. An unwanted behavior could be to stare into space, or play with his shirt, and not answer the question. That is just the way that it works. Then there are also gradations of behaviors, it is not just "yes or no." If he is doing something incorrectly, but it is slightly better than he has done it before, then that is something that is good. He is a little closer. He is not all the way there, but he is closer. We cannot count on just going from 0, he is not doing it at all, to 100, he is doing it perfect. If he goes from 0 to 10, then that is a big step, it can't be ignored just because it wasn't the full step to 100. Tokens can be helpful that way, because you can give a token for a "good try." It is a lot more clear (imo) to give a token for a "good try" and have it communicate: I am really happy you tried, but it is not the right answer. When there are situations, which we have, when even with every best effort and intention and errorless teaching etc. etc., sometimes when there is a brand-new skill to learn, the reality is, he is at zero, and he is not going to make very fast progress. He just may not. In that situation, which we have, it is not nice to hear and hear "good try, but here is the right answer" or whatever. Even when there are easier questions mixed in that he can get the answer to. That is a good strategy, but it doesn't make up for him, getting wrong answers -- he doesn't like to get wrong answers. He doesn't like now knowing an answer, really. That is what he really doesn't like. (B/c I do try to do errorless teaching, but sometimes he might still not like to be asked a new question -- this is actually something that has been a struggle but has improved a lot.) But if he *tolerates* not knowing an answer, and he tries, and he gets a wrong answer: then it really DOES help him to get a "good try" token. Because he did try! We want to reinforce the trying, and the tolerating of not knowing the answer but trying instead of lashing out or withdrawing. This is a MAJOR life skill, and a MAJOR problem if he cannot handle not knowing an answer, but oops, he has to learn new material sometimes, and oops, he often catches on slowly (or slower than he would like!). So this is something that is also really, really helpful about tokens for us, because he does respond to a token by feeling like "I did good because I tried." And that is just not an easy response to get, or an easy message to convey. B/c my son has some language delays, I can't necessarily *talk* to him about this, but I can *show* him, because he can understand being shown. I think a big part of it is just that tokens provide a visual, concrete thing for him, and he has a language delay, so sometimes language may be fleeting for him or he may not completely understand. With those two things, a lot of the other messages that we can send (that I send to my other 2 kids and they pick up on) are just not necessarily going to be received by him. With the other two, I have the tools of: verbal explanation, them picking up on my body language, them picking up on my tone of voice, them picking up faster on things (often) and so being less frustrated, them being able to easily verbally express to me things that they would like and me easily being able to say "sure, just finish up such-and-such first." My daughter also is able to make transitions extremely easily.

Oh, thanks. I think there was major thread drift here, I just realized. But thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Yeah. I want to clarify -- the people I asked, I was like "do you EVER do it?" And one told me "one time" and that it was with a teenager, and that her supervisor was very involved with the case, really trying to figure it out. And the taking away was only for one target behavior. Like -- it was a big deal, not the normal thing they do at all. The other one said she did it sometimes, but only for middle-school and above. It is not that they are saying "do it" or recommending it. They just didn't say "no, never, ever." For the one who said "sometimes, for middle-school and above," I privately think, it had better seem pretty compelling if they ever want it for my son, or else we will say no. Maybe she is out-of-date or there is another option where it is not needed for the times she thinks it is okay. But at the same time -- she said it, and I think she is legitimate in general. I think she is good and I listen to what she has to say. But she could be wrong on this, too! So really -- I do agree with Texasmama. I am also going to edit a previous post, b/c it is just very hard to explain and get into.

Well, methods like this are extremely helpful with one of my kids. Extremely, extremely helpful. But I was told not to take away things. I have asked about this, b/c I hear about people who take things away..... I was told for my son's level, they would not take away. I have asked a couple of people, and both of them told me "middle school age and above." One seemed like she had a sub-group of kids where she thought it could be pretty effective and useful. The other told me for one targeted behavior only. It is all autism-specific, but these are pretty legitimate people that I asked. If you got this from the book, it makes me think the book is old, or the author is not a BCBA (basically the specialist in this kind of thing). Edit: I looked at the book again on Amazon, and it seems like it would be good to me! But there are some nit-picky little things that I think do matter, with just how token systems are used. It is something that has been very important for my son and continues to be very important, so I am pretty interested. But then books about it can be bogged down in little nitpicky details. I do think this Nurtured Heart Approach does look good. Maybe add some of the nitpicky details to it, possibly. Like -- sometimes you read an autism book, and the whole book is just about finding reinforcers for your child, figuring out a target behavior, figuring out what rate and type of reinforcement to use (fixed/interval, delayed/immediate, primary, secondary), etc. And it is so nit-picky!!!!!!! It does not quite have the heart focus!!!!!!!!! But it is what I need for it to work for my son. I seriously doubt you need such a nit-picky thing, but I think I agree with OhElizabeth -- check out the Kazdin book, and just add it to the Nurtured Heart. B/c it will not have so much heart-nurturing. But it can tell you how to have a good shot at a quality token system. But both are important!

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I agree. Also, you don't have to take away pompoms. You can let pompoms be something she gets, not something she loses. There is a risk of it being counterproductive. You can have something else you do, you don't have to take them away. I think, personally, when you have something good going with the pompoms, keep it positive, don't take them away. Just let it be for when she is doing well. Unless you are working with somebody reputable who thinks it is a good idea ------ it is often not recommended. It sounds like it is too sad for her, and in addition, it sounds not effective, if she wanted to do well but couldn't. You want effective. If the pompoms are effective for some things, don't make use them for something where they are ineffective. It weakens them and it is not setting her up for success. If you are reading a book that recommends taking them away ------ I can just say, I have never seen it recommended for autism for young children ime (which is limited). I have seen it not be recommended. I know it is a thing people do -- but I don't think of it as a best practice. I think there are some situations where it is a recommended practice, but I would not stay with taking away pompoms. I have a kind-of strong feeling on this, I just think it is not effective a lot of times, even though I know people do it. I don't really know why they think it makes sense when it is not effective, and then (often) they soon after say "token systems don't work, my kid won't participate." And I think -- well, maybe you should not have taken the tokens away. But that is just a thing with me. Edit: Basically -- you just don't earn a pompom. You can say "too bad, you would have earned a pompom, but here is your next chance." (And agreeing with Texasmama -- if she is capable.) She doesn't get a pompom, but she doesn't lose one either. This is, basically, kind-of what you would do instead of taking away a pompom. I think it is supposed to be okay to do, as far as I know, this is my understanding.

I went into a school eval expecting to hear ADHD. My son's teacher really thought he had ADHD. I thought he probably had ADHD. When we went into the meeting, we found out he had a lot of problems from the OT eval, and would need OT, and that a lot of things were stemming from this OT stuff. I was like, "what????" His teacher was, too. What is funny, too, the teacher and I were the ones to fill out the parent and teacher ADHD forms. The school psychologist was like, "nope, the forms you filled out yourselves do not show elevated levels in the things we look for, for ADHD." I had never really heard of OT for anything besides just pencil grip and HWT-type handwriting help. So there, I had a process of noticing things that I had always thought were signs of a bad attitude, lack of focus, etc., and seeing that they were in an area he scored low in on the OT eval. His teacher, who I respect and who made a 180 with him after this meeting, had thought that he "could" be doing some things in her class and that he just "wasn't." It turned out to be in things that were his OT weaknesses. It took a while for me to be done seeing those connections (it took until summer for me to go "swimming! of course!").

The Mislabeled Child, and Dyslexic Advantage. Agree! They are good books! I do not agree with some of the autism chapter in The Mislabeled Child. I don't think it is consistent with DSM 5, which is what we have right now (though it could change in the future and probably will, it seems to change every 5 years). The only thing I disagree with, is that he thinks children who have a high social motivation should not be diagnosed with autism. But today -- social motivation is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and some kids may have more or less social motivation, and still be diagnosed with autism. I think it is a fair opinion and he makes a good point ----- I just do not agree, I don't think it is helpful to avoid an autism diagnosis when it fits the current DSM 5. But really, it is a good book! I would put it high on your reading list.

I think a neuropsych eval is a good first/early step. Have you looked at the Barton reading website? It is popular. If you have plenty of time for books, I have a major soft spot for this book: http://www.amazon.com/Phonics-Edition-Scholastic-Teaching-Strategies/dp/0439845114 It is available in our library, and it is about the most informative book in our library about actually teaching reading/decoding. Good luck! Soon you will be an expert, too :)

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/special-education-classroom-setup-pointers-summer-sped-blog-hop/ See, these are good ideas, but I don't know that they are what you are looking for. I kind-of don't think they are what you are looking for, but maybe they are, lol. At the bottom of this post she says "if you like these ideas, check out my book," so...

OhE, check out "behavioral momentum," too. http://www.iloveaba.com/2014/06/behavioral-momentum.html I sometimes will think with Kazdin, he is using some of the same ideas as with autism, but he has chosen to use more parent-friendly language. Which is great if you just need the book. But if you want to google for more ideas, does not give you a term to google. I have checked out his book (or 2 books) more than once, though, lol, I do like him! It is just not the kind of book where I am going to go "this is the only book I will ever need." I like that woman's Facebook a lot, I have read a lot of her back posts. https://www.facebook.com/autismclassroomnews?fref=ts I think maybe half of her stuff might be not applicable for your son, but I find something helpful in almost every one of her posts. The ones I skip over are about classroom set-up and classroom structure, lol. Oh, to your question about the book.... look through her facebook/blog (whatever) posts. A lot about classroom set-up on her facebook/blog is about setting up a space for 10 kids, and having 3 areas, and how to do that in variously configured resource rooms you might be given. But honestly, I think you might possibly be able to comment on her blog and just see if she thinks it is appropriate for a homeschool classroom. She has responded to a comment I have left before. I think she might respond to a "yes or no" question like that. She might not answer a long, convoluted, specific question that would take a ton of time to get into. You also might just be able to get some ideas from her posts.

Well, my kids are in public school. But still -- both my sons have had private therapies in addition to school services. They aren't disqualified b/c they are already getting school services. So I am agreeing. My paperwork saga (it is a saga!!!!!!!!!) may be a little different, but I think you should be okay with follow-up. Here is the thing ---- let's say they say "you should go through your school district." I think that is a fine, legitimate thing to say. But if you hear that and go "well, I don't want to," and never bring it up again ----- you don't know how the conversation continues if you say "well, that is not an option, here is why," and keep talking. It is not a conversation where you say (this is more my situation) that you are pleased with the school but your kids need more or people at school have said more is needed. But when my oldest son was little, I didn't understand this at all. I thought he did not have options that he did have, b/c it was not volunteered to me, and I didn't know to keep asking or keep following up. Sometimes with Tricare -- your service provider may be very helpful. Not always, but often I have gotten the most help with Tricare from a billing/insurance receptionist in an office. I have had this for speech and OT at three locations, where they were set up to have a billing person who did all the insurance. All these nice ladies knew all about Tricare! So helpful! Way more knowledgable than a primary care doctor on post ---- it is what they do for their entire job, and they chit chat with ladies all day and hear about how their insurance paperwork is going. So -- maybe keep trying. I also think, if you can manage to network locally, just ask around if anyone knows anybody whose child has a special need ------- that is how I have gotten so much insurance information. I have also been very helped by a woman at EFMP! She was so helpful! I would not *only* talk to her, but it was worth talking to her. Good luck! It is so frustrating, but if you want it, keep trying. Have you looked into Barton reading, btw? Their website has a lot of information. I am not sorry I went with home tutoring (after schooling, summer schooling) with my older son for reading. It has worked out well. I did not put my energy into school like I put it into helping him at home. In another school district -- this would not be a good choice. But for where I am -- I think it was a good choice for us. But you could have great options locally! It is possible! Edit: My son did not have an active IEP at the time we got his neuropsychological testing approved. This was for dysgraphia, and he had already had about 2 years of school OT and over a year of private OT. The nurse told me dysgraphia was on their list, but she was not really sure the referral would come back approved or not. But she is a nice nurse. She always says that if a referral is denied, she will re-submit it with more information or whatever. And that is what they are supposed to do I think! Also you could read a book like "Overcoming Dyslexia" from the library. Or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0809228572/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=11NTTRN4WMQKAY306WZ9&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktopmaybe. Wherever you start -- it is difficult, there are false starts and twists and turns. Just keep going! Eventually you will make some headway!