Oh wow, you've all given a wealth of suggestions - thank you! I forgot to mention that dd has read a lot of suggestions from TWTM grammar and logic stage lists; so, the typical Laura Ingalls Wilder and some of Lucy Maud Montgomery and then other childhood classics (Burnett, etc.). I've been trying to talk her into reading more of Lucy Maud Montgomery (we live near PEI!), but she hasn't bitten yet. I will be searching library sites for many of your suggestions (there is much in this thread that I've never heard of yet - new treasures to sift through), and strewing them around the house for her. She started to read Girl of the Limberlost a few weeks ago, but claims it's interesting but she has to concentrate hard. I think this is because she has marinated too long in what I call "junk books" over recent months. I put a ban on those, lol, because she couldn't seem to give them up on her own. I think the ban will help her ease back into good reading - she really does love a good story. She is eagerly working through Robin McKinley's Beauty right now, so I will check out more books from that author, too. Oh, and she did love The Story Girl by LMM. I'm sorry this post is so disjointed - I have a lot of projects on the go at the moment, but I wanted to check in here so I can get going on the book-hunt project. I would love to hear more suggestions!

Let me know when you find out - it seems odd that this particular book would be left off that particular list.

I'm surprised the publisher has been unresponsive - didn't you once host a conference with them? I've looked at but never used the MCT materials. Just looking at and trying to figure out all the different parts to the various levels overwhelms my brain. The thing about TWTM is this: you have given an understandable overview of and defense for a decent education, and then you've broken that down into step-by-step, doable parts. This is what has made it so appealing to many homeschoolers over the years, esp. those of us who otherwise would not have known how to go about this home-ed. project. Though the systematic development of concepts and step-by-step skill teaching has been boring at times (or has driven us crazy - hello, R&S worldview!), I now see the benefits of it all in my two teens (and in me). They do, too. And though they jokingly "accuse" me of making them learn academic skills over the years (as if it took up ALL their time), they know that they have had plenty of time to do lots of reading and free-time pursuits of interest. You could include a huge variety of materials in the 4th ed. for a lot of valid reasons. But to me, the strength of TWTM is the simplicity and straightforwardness of the methods and the recommended resources for getting the job done. A reference in the 4th ed. to these forums will send readers to the bigger variety out there. I think you're right. :) I also think you should pick up the Advanced Language Lessons project again. The samples we beta-tested were yet another testament to your ability to make materials that are straightforward. :D

You people are all deep thinkers and readers - could anyone please help me with this "book recommendation for a 14yog" post on the high school board: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/558502-if-a-14yog-likes-these-books-by-lengle-and-alcott-see-post-she-might-like/

My 14 year old daughter loved the following books by Madeleine L'Engle: - And Both Were Young - Camilla - The Small Rain (her favourite) - The Arm of the Starfish and by Louisa May Alcott: - Eight Cousins - An Old Fashioned Girl (her favourite) She has looked at or skimmed through most of the other Alcott and L'Engle books (we hunted them down through the library, uni libraries, and ILL), and either she had already read them or she didn't want to read them at this time. So what other books could you recommend for her, based on the above? I desperately need suggestions with good and thoughtful writing, as I'm trying to steer her away from some modern teen fluff/overly dramatic books!! These are the types of books that have tons of short direct quotations that have nothing of substance to say and are full of peer-oriented teen drama. She has marinated enough in these over the past few months - it's time to move her on to the good writing that she used to enjoy - she LOVES to read! And she's a creative writer, so I want her to soak in good writing again.

I knew nothing about logic when my first child started MP's TL, and I didn't buy the DVDs. He got along fine with just the books and me going through it with him.

In my 2nd ed., it is listed in the "Source Readings" section of the rhetoric stage science section of the book. There is a short list for each of the sciences, but then there is an expanded list, and the Darwin book is on it. Does that exist in your 3rd. ed.?

We did end up using the Wiley STG as spines for the high school sciences (geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry, and this coming year biology). It worked out fine for my science-loving ds. I thought long and hard about it, and read threads here and talked with a few friends (more science-knowledgeable than I) before deciding. For us, it boiled down to finances and concern about the time it would take to go through a thicker science text in addition to ds's other schoolwork/etc. I also felt that the WTM idea of reading, research, and writing would still serve us well in this area. Time will tell, but I think it has. Ds got excellent score on his SAT II tests in physics and chemistry (which I had him take to validate the courses). But more than that, he deepened his learning *and interest* in physics and chemistry (that he had begun in a WTMish way in the earlier years) even though the books are dry. He knew how to go after more information to clarify something he didn't understand in the STG or something he just wanted to learn more about. I have a thrifted Conceptual Physics book (and a thrifted thick chemistry book and a given-to-us thick biology book - from a cousin who just finished university) and other science reference books and encyclopedias on the shelf, and he'd go to those. Or he'd go to the local library systems and seek out books on topics he wanted to learn more about. Anyway, I think they are a valid (and inexpensive) option, as long as you know how to use them.

I'm going to post today since I will probably forget as the week goes on. I will try to post near the beginning of the weeks of these threads (I'm talking to myself here, making a plan), so I can mention what book I've read recently. Maybe this plan will motivate me to keep going. I don't think I can do a book each week, but I can comment on what I'm reading. So, the last book I read in full was Cockpit Confidential: Everything You Need to Know About Air Travel: Questions, Answers, and Reflections. It's not a novel (which is what I'm trying to get back into, but I get frustrated when I get interrupted with these), but it was a pretty interesting read. I thought it would be somewhat fluffy, but it turned out to be pretty thoughtful and insightful about the whole airline industry. I think the most interesting part to me was learning about pilot training, pilot scheduling, pilot salaries (not as big as one might think), and the differences between regional airline pilots and the big airline pilots. Somewhere on this thread or the last one, someone wrote about not buying more books until they've read the ones on their shelves. I think I need to do that, lol! So, Don Quixote is staring at me from my book pile, but I am still scared to plunge in - what if I get bogged down by the length?? But a friend of mine just finished it, and she kept telling me how interesting and funny it is....I should probably just plunge. Or I could keep reading Searching For Sunday by Rachel Held Evans. I hope to be able to report back next week that I did something! :D Hey, thanks all for the welcomes - I really appreciated it! Nan and Jane, I've missed you!!! I'll have to catch you up on our life sometime.

I didn't know these syllabi existed - thank you!! Yes, it was very helpful to look through those and see how the instructors are laying out the courses! Basically it's D'Angelo, Kane, and Corbett. I, too, remember hearing that Corbett was more advanced. And thank you for saying your understanding is that the progym is part of the larger subject of rhetoric. In thinking about all this the past couple of days, I remember that at one point I theoretically understood that, but I forgot! I think we are thinking this correctly, lol. Huh, I just realized that the chart you linked is slightly different from the one that actually showed up in WWS 3. Corbett is included. I went through some of my notes, and I found this: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/303489-answering-questions-about-writing-with-skill/?p=3214396 SWB actually does say it's bad writing, and I think she does mean composition-wise, not goriness (but maybe the bad writing includes the goriness, lol) YES! I looked in my first ed. and found that, too! I also have the second ed. and can see where the changes occurred. But of course the first ed. got me thinking, "Hey, we'll just jump right into Corbett, then!" I think you're right, in that there is no "wrong" answer for me - I just needed to clarify a few things in my head. I also found this that I asked SWB four years ago (and obviously forgot about): http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/303489-answering-questions-about-writing-with-skill/?p=3188750 So if we use Kane, we won't need to do the Weston book (although I'm still having a hard time seeing where the rules for arguments are in the Kane book....but I am tired and bleary-eyed at the moment...I'll have to come back to that and figure it out). And I assume if we used Corbett, Weston isn't necessary either. I just don't want to miss anything. I also have the They Say, I Say book, but it seems to me a book to use after a student has gone through at least one of the other books like Kane or Corbett. I'm not sure I'd use it as the only teaching tool. Yes, I guess it's possible to use with the other resources, but I probably won't with my son - I think we'll lean more towards the rhetoric/classical side of things. It's his last year, and I can't picture him taking up a rhetoric study on his own after this. But I'd like for him to have some in his tool box. And yes, we have the Schaum's guide for research papers. Again, I think of that one as being useful after having learned some progym and rhetoric skills. And more for research as opposed to persuasive writing. I'm thinking my options are these: - Weston, D'Angelo, Kane - Weston, D'Angelo, Corbett - D'Angelo, Kane - D'Angelo, Corbett (hmmmm....obviously I am afraid of leaving out detailed progym teaching, lol) I'll have to think further through these options - it's a lot to put into one year. But with my son, it's possible because he doesn't have a lot of other things going on - mainly math, history, literature, and biology. And yes, I will ask him - I was going to the other day until I realized I didn't really know what I was talking about yet. I think it's going to boil down to a choice between Kane and Corbett, with D'Angelo definitely beforehand, and maybe Weston (I don't want to let go of that book!) before that. So basically options one or two from above, lol. Thanks for the link to the slides - I didn't know those existed, either. I compared them to notes I took when I went to the WTM conference in 2009 - they are the same. They also reminded me of the prompts we can use to write papers across the curriculum. Does anyone have the D'Angelo book? How would you study it? I can have him outline the sections, but after each chapter is a set of review questions - if you are outlining anyway, would you bother with the review questions, since outlining helps cement information? And it has long lists of exercises to do - would you pick a few, one, or all? Why? In looking at the WTM Academy syllabi, it seems that the instructor has the students doing one exercise, but I can't really tell. What would you do, and why? Thanks for thinking through all this with me! Please still feel free to correct my thinking anywhere or point out something I'm not thinking of. It'll be easier with my daughter, because she'll have 3.5 years to do this instead of one!

I'm already feeling very loved in these threads! :D I will be back.

This conversation is VERY helpful. I will come back in the next day or two to reply in-depth.

This is why I prefer TWRTR's 3rd and 4th editions, but not the ones afterwards. The later ones get more into writing and grammar and integrating lessons. I liked WRTR because it zeroed in on how to teach reading, and then I could pick other things for grammar, for composition, etc.

Hi, I've read as much as I could find about jumping into the BAW project, and it seems it's OK for me to jump in mid-stream. I've been wanting for a few years to do this, but haven't had time. I'm not sure that I have more time now, but I am reading more these days than I have in awhile, so I'm going to try. :D If anything, at least there's an internet space for me to come to periodically and post about what I'm reading (and find some other good books from you other members). I can't write as eloquently as most of you can, but it'll give me a place to at least get my thoughts out of my own head. And, I miss Jane and Nan, but I see you gals posting here, so I can catch up on your lives. :D I love Rachel Held Evans's books! This is the new name of her Monkey Town book (though I like the original title better): Faith Unraveled: How a Girl Who Knew All the Answers Learned to Ask Questions. I am currently reading Searching For Sunday. In somewhat the same genre, I also recently read Nadia Bolz-Weber's Pastrix: The Cranky, Beautiful Faith of a Sinner & Saint. It's really funny and really deep. But my most favourite recent read was Dracula. I had read Frankenstein before that, so I thought I'd enjoy it. It drew me in right away. I think it was the writing style and the vivid descriptions. I could easily visualize Jonathan Harker's ride to the castle and his adventures inside, sometimes to the point where I had to breathe slowly so I wouldn't be scared, lol. I also enjoyed the development of each character. I kept waiting for the book to start freaking me out, but it didn't. Then I could relax into just reading a really good story, and of course I really enjoyed the ending. My favourite character was the professor who took care of Lucy and Mina, and I was afraid he was going to be killed off, lol, so I was glad he didn't. The only thing that irked me was the depiction of Mina being all-sweet and good, compliant, and always serving the men. I was relieved to see near the end that she was actually driving the horses when she and the professor went on their part of the journey to catch Dracula's boat. But I understand, too, that it may be reflective of the times during which the book was written. Overall, a satisfying read for me.

YES YES YES!!!! I was going to mention this, too. I can't explain how much I appreciate finding out about the 1960s Dolciani high school math books here on the forums. I'm thinking it would be helpful to mention a few OOP books in the 4th ed., because some of us do go searching for these gems once we find out about them. I also recently discovered the 1950s-era Warriner's English grammar and composition books - love them and wish I'd had them years ago!! Also, a poster named Hunter has some great lists of vintage books for teaching various skills. Even things like geography - I wish I'd known about older classical methods of teaching geography (copying maps, etc.) rather than filling in blackline maps such as from Knowledge Quest. (It seems to me that I did see instructions on copying maps in a new PHP item - is there a study guide for the adult history series, Susan? I think those instructions should be included somewhere in TWTM, in all three stages.) I also heartily echo the sentiments for the 1st ed. of WTM. What drew me to it in the first place was that it was a book that told me HOW to educate my kids - the "how to teach" sections were so helpful to me. Don't edit those out anymore (even though you recommend specific books, which I love, of course, like WWS and WWE and SOTW), and bring back what you may have cut when doing the 2nd ed. Regarding Spalding (The Writing Road to Reading): I also recommend including this as a resource for teaching reading, printing, cursive, and spelling skills. I've used this for years to teach my own kids and others (with varying learning difficulties) whom I've tutored. Some people say it's too difficult to use at home, but it's one of those books that you do have to go through yourself and learn, and then learn how to teach the skills to others. In other words, it fits in with the "how to teach" idea of TWTM. And once you "get it," you can incorporate your own ideas into your teaching sessions (for example, a few weeks ago I took a restless 8-year-old outside to do the last part of his reading/spelling lesson in chalk on our driveway). IMPORTANT: In my opinion, the 4th and then the 3rd editions of TWRTR are the easiest to learn from. I think the later editions are too complicated.

Hi Lisa!! Long time no talk. My oldest is going into Grade 12 this coming year - I cannot believe it. I started on these forums when he was...6 or 7 years old and my dd was 4 or 5!!! Hmm....over the past year and a half or so, I've been focusing on having him take some SAT subject tests (physics, chemistry, and Math II this coming year) so that he could have outside validation on his transcript. There are so few high school homeschoolers around here that I constantly get the question, "How are you going to do high school science, esp. since he wants to go to university??" It turns out he did very well on the physics and chemistry tests, thankyouverymuch (and BIG thanks to WTM, it's authors, and these forums!!!). And he took the SAT in June and did VERY well in all three sections. So that milestone is passed and checked off my list. He has had one campus tour so far at a local university. He might do a couple more locally. He's not really sure yet where he wants to apply or even when he wants to go - he might take a gap year to work and save some money. But we'll be looking into how that might affect scholarship opportunities. Which is the next thing I have to start looking into more deeply in the next few months. I do have an outline of application deadlines and such. He will ask various places about taking a gap year after being accepted. He probably won't apply to lots of schools....that might be a Canadian thing to not apply to tons of places. But we have some decent schools with lots of science and math programs in our region, and they all seem to be looking for local students so that the maritime provinces don't empty of young people. He just spent a week at a math camp sponsored by the Canadian Mathematical Society - he was one of just twenty students in the province chosen to attend!!!! I cobbled together a nomination package for him (schools could nominate two students, so I nominated my one who was eligible to apply :D ) - I found two local uni profs/friends who could vouch for his mathematical love and abilities and got them to write reference letters, I wrote a letter explaining our grading system (I had to submit grades), and I had ds write out a math problem of his choosing that would demonstrate his ability. I don't think I would have thought to do all of this had I not been reading here on the forums for so many years, so, thanks for all of your help with getting him this opportunity! :D He had a GREAT time spending a week with fellow math geeks, and he hopes to get together with two or three of the ones who LOVED solving math problems even in between the lectures/meals/social events - these guys live within 45 minutes of us, and I plan to make this happen. He needs to be around them. So anyway, the camp was run by a local university's math dept., so he also got to meet more professors there. (mom brag alert) The leader told me at the end of the week that he, the other profs, and the students all noticed that ds "is very smart and interested." Another one told me that ds would just jump right into discussions during math lectures, whereas not many others would. Anyway, I'm glad that ds now has more connections to at least one school he is interested in. So, ds is going to study math (he's working on Dolciani's analysis book - I think it's pre-cal level? Then he'll take the SAT Math II test), rhetoric, biology, modern history, and modern lit. this coming year. And he'll spend his free time pursuing interests in computer science/programming and other things that float across his radar, and working at odd jobs (raking, shoveling, mowing; running a sound system for funerals). He has applied for a few different conventional jobs within biking distance, but no luck yet. With the help of Dick Bolles's What Color is Your Parachute book for teens, I even had him create a cover letter and resume to take around to some small local businesses - we hope some odd jobs will come of that, too. He currently is taking driver ed with a view to having a license by next spring. And he's saving his money for driver insurance and eventually a vehicle. If he goes to school locally, he can probably commute with local workers, get a ride to a nearby bus station, or drive a car if he has one by then. So, I guess by talking about all this stuff is how we are preparing him for graduation and life beyond high school. He has his own bank accounts and keeps his own books (he studied R&S recordkeeping course). I just can't believe I'm here posting all this stuff - time has flown by.

Study is Hard Work by William H. Armstrong http://www.amazon.com/Study-Hard-Work-Accessible-Available/dp/156792025X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437234492&sr=8-1&keywords=study+is+hard+work

The Well-Toasted Mind: Home-Education Help For Weary Parents Parents of Teens

Hi all, I need some input. My son has finally completed WWS 1-3. He is going into Grade 12, and I am trying to figure out how to create a rhetoric course for him. My ideal would have been to have him start this a couple of years ago, but I felt he really needed the detailed instruction in the WWS courses (though I am currently doubting myself, wondering if he could have skipped that and gone on to study the Kane book or something....but I didn't feel comfortable with that at the time, because I didn't know exactly what was coming as WWS levels were published concurrently with our studies, and I didn't know how to evaluate that compared with Kane and the other WTM recs). Anyway, I have all the typical WTM rec'd. books here: Weston, D'Angelo, Kane, and Corbett. Except I still don't REALLY get what is covered in one vs. the others. Here is what I think I understand so far (correct me if I'm wrong; add in what I am not seeing). Weston's is all about rules for arguing and how to avoid fallacies. D'Angelo's is a detailed study of progym skills (and SWB has said in the past that the examples are terrible - but terrible in what way? Terrible as in they don't illustrate the taught skills well? Or terrible as in gory to read?). Kane's is...I can't really tell. It seems to me that WWS is partly a fleshed-out Kane, and TWTM book says that students who study Kane will get a grasp of rhetoric. But does that not mean the same as the progym skills? Cuz I just don't see progym skills in the Kane book. And Corbett's only has a small section of progym skills. So, are rhetoric and progym not the same subject? Does Corbett's book cover rhetoric and insert just a bit of progym? What exactly am I supposed to be teaching for "rhetoric" in the high school years, anyway? And since ds only has a year left, what should I be focusing on for this? He will be using his WWS skills in his science/history/lit. studies, but I want to do a rhetoric course (or should it be progym? Or both somehow?) so that he can further his writing skills while still working with me this coming year. He may or may not be inclined to study this further on his own after he's done with me. He wants to go to university and study in the sciences/maths/computer science arena. Can someone(s) please help me clarify my thinking? Help me figure out which of these books to use (no online courses, no other courses - we can't afford them and we have some great books already which I want to put to use - he does know how to outline and does fine studying that way). Thanks for reading my stream-of-consciousness post!! I hope someone can see below the garbledness. (p.s. My daughter will be done WWS 3 this coming year, but I'll have a few years with her to go through the rhetoric thing)

P.S. My son found Richard Bolles's career book for teenagers quite helpful. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1607745771/

If it still will boil down to a choice between chemistry and physics, I would choose physics. It seems like he enjoys the running of the sound system at church (my 17yo son does, too!!), so physics can only enhance that (even if he doesn't realize it - he doesn't need to know that's your reason for choosing physics, lol). Also, I agree with what someone else said about physics in baseball - sports is full of physics! Well, so is everyday life. But sports could connect it for him, KWIM? Also, I had my son study physics before chemistry, since I'd read here over the years that it is more foundational and then chemistry and biology build in sequence on physics. It worked well enough here - he just finished a year of chemistry after doing physics in Grade 10. I would bet that, based on your son's love of baseball and sound engineering, he would enjoy physics over chemistry.

There's just no place like the WTM forums where we Moms can come brag about these things and GET each other, no matter what the brag is about!!! All these years put into home-educating our kids in all our varied ways.... Thanks, all!!

Thank you so much for all the "likes" and comments, friends! We are so, so excited about this opportunity for him.