In addition to the above link, here's the WTM threads on the topic: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/tags/forums/kerfluffle/

My dh worked for as a substance abuse counselor at a non-profit for a while. Extremely low pay, and intrinsically hard and frustrating work (most of their clients were there because of court orders and weren't interested in getting clean) - and it was also a very dysfunctional, excrement-rolls-downhill kind of work environment. I always thought that while they couldn't help the hard/frustrating nature of counseling addicts, and maybe couldn't do much about the low pay, they still could have improved job satisfaction so much if they'd created a better work culture. As it was, the place had ridiculous turnover, and tptb were continually was shocked when entirely foreseeable and preventable problems occurred. Which they reacted to by blaming their subordinates, down the line from the off-site big boss down to the most recently hired counselor; they expected their underlings to magically solve everything without any support and do impossible things like cram 80 hours of work into 40, while not doing a stitch of work off the clock. (They hired dh to cover two full-time positions - I thought he would get a ton of overtime - but they strictly limited him to 40 hours and no off the clock work, and wondered why he couldn't get everything done.). It was awful - and mostly because of intangibles.

I think hard work counts for a lot - especially with respect to forming character. Even when the outward results of your hard work aren't appreciated commensurate with the effort you put in (and so may or may not not be the best area in which to devote your hard work), the character-building inner results are lasting and worthwhile. Wrt your motivational poster, a related-to-growth-mindset researcher who studies grit, Angela Duckworth, argues that effort counts twice. Her thesis is that talent * effort = skill and skill * effort = achievement, so achievement = talent * effort * effort. Aka, talent counts, but effort counts twice.

Trying both ways with a micro USB - what I do 90% of the time - has never caused me any problems. Probably because I don't try to jam it in, but look at it as I gently try to plug it in, and if it doesn't look right or doesn't go in, I turn it around and try the other way. No damage, no problems. After a year of getting it wrong nearly every time, I am trying to learn to identify which way to put it on sight, but the trying both ways method has served me well, even when I hadn't the faintest idea which way it went and wasn't bothering to try to figure it out. I do have a long-engrained habit of never, ever trying to force electronics to connect when there's resistance - which might be key to not damaging things with the "try both ways" method - but, idk, I'm a long time user of that method with micro usb connectors, and it's not caused any problems.

I'm right with you. I had *no* idea it was a thing anywhere till this thread. And when I saw posters saying it was a thing in Chicagoland, I'm all, "Hey, wait - *I'm* in Chicagoland! Are public school fees a thing at *our* schools?!?" And, yep, turns out they are. $200/kid at *our* K-8, and $315 for incoming freshman at *our* high school :svengo:. I was totally flabbergasted. I ranted in incredulous disbelief to dh, as I looked up all the local districts and saw that, yep, every one of them had $100+ registration fees. And when he got tired of listening to me ;), I called my sister to continue ranting. Because I seriously cannot wrap my brain around it. $600 this year and every year just to *enroll* my three kids at the local K-8. I've never heard of such a thing. (You can tell I didn't grow up here.)

Seems I spoke too soon. Fee waivers are just for families who are eligible for *free* lunches (not reduced lunches), and we qualify for *reduced* lunches (up to 185% of federal poverty level) but not *free* lunches (up to 130% of federal poverty level). So, no, we and families like us owe the full fees. $600 for our family if I registered all the kids at the local school. Every year.

Hunh, turns out we are eligible for free lunches - we're well under the income limit for our household size. Kind of surprises me, in that we have no problems feeding our kids decent food. But otoh, three school lunches a day at $3/kid -> $9/day * 180 days = $1620, and no, I don't have an extra $1620 in the budget. So, yeah, I feel like we couldn't afford to buy the school lunch. Which is why I'd have solved the problem by sending lunch from home. But for kids for whom bringing lunch from home isn't really an option, not being able to afford school lunch would mean no lunch. So I can see why it would make sense to qualify from that angle. So while I'm still having giant negative reactions to the whole concept of mandatory *public* school fees (when I say "school fees", I feel like I'm talking about going to Hogwarts or something, not about registering for the local public school), I suppose it's nice to know families like ours *are* indeed eligible for waivers.

I live in Chicagoland, and before this thread I had *no idea* that registration/book fees were a thing. As it turns out, at our local high school, registration fees for incoming freshman are $315, and that covers most things (not the PE uniform and heart rate monitor strap, but does include book fees for individual classes and the apparently ubiquitous chromebook). Wrt the legality of it all, per the linked article, IL law allows schools to charge fees to cover consumables. Still, though, I am really shocked by it. I grew up in TX, and as far as I know, the only things we paid for were school supplies and instrument rental. Oh, and the PE uniform. But no registration fees or books fees or anything like that. I had *no* idea public schools charged like that here. Eta: I found the fee info on the high school website - there was a copy of the letter sent to parents of incoming freshmen that had the info. Eta2: looks like chrome books are costly ;). A different local high school (in a different district) charges $160 for its registration fee. It has separate activity and sports fees (capped at $100 each), though. And I couldn't tell if there were separate book fees for individual classes - didn't look like it. Eta3: a third district's fees are $130 for 1-5, $165 for 6-8, and $210 for 9-12 (plus individual class fees). Also, while half-day K is $88 for the year, full day K is $100 per *month* on top of that $88. Public school definitely ain't free here. Eta4: finally found the info for our local elementary school. $200 per kid. So this year, with three kids in the district, would be $600 in *mandatory* fees. That's my entire hs budget!

Was it this one: https://www.cph.org/p-12955-the-hear-me-read-bible.aspx ?

Also, as a shy kid with social anxiety, I hung out with my parents at some events because I had no one else to be with. They were my "safe base". It's really sucky to be stuck at a party with no one to talk to, at any age. I'm very thankful my parents' default habit was to let me stay with them. (Not that they didn't have private conversations, but that was different than general adult conversation.). It's just like how, as an adult, the people you come to a party with are your default companions - if you find yourself with no one to talk to, you can always go join your spouse's or friend's conversation - you have at least *one* guaranteed companion. Yeah, if they are having a private conversation, you have to wait for them to finish, but rarely ime do people have extended private conversations at a party or get-together (and if they do, it's usually an emergency). And now that I have older kids, I find that they are no impediment to adult conversation - it's really entirely different from when they were little and needy in that all-encompassing little-kid way. They are there as interested listeners, who are paying attention just like I am, not uninterested listeners who just want mommy. And while there's a time and place for private conversations, usually the general adult conversations at a get-together aren't private - any interested adult is welcome.

Different poster, but I was raised similarly (mixed age conversations as the norm). Ime, conversations in the living areas of the house were open to anyone in the house who wanted to contribute. If my parents were sitting there, or passing through, they'd contribute if they had something to say; if my little sister was sitting there or passing through and had something to say, she'd do so, too. If I wanted a private conversation, we'd go off to my room or something. I don't recall ever wishing my parents weren't there (and usually they were off doing other things, but would converse with us over the dinner table or passing through if pertinent). When I was 14, I went through a brief stage of wanting my little sister to leave me and my friends alone, but it passed within a year (and I stayed in my room to have some privacy). The general expectation of conversations in public areas of the house being open to anyone never bothered me, not as a teen or any other age.

Definitely ymmv, but it's not like my kids' cute antics are dominating the adult conversation. (If they were, I'd excuse myself and my kid from the conversation, and go help them get involved in kid play.). Usually, when they are there, they are quietly listening. Also, this conversation is about 8+, which ime is mostly beyond the cute antics contributions anyway. It's just that the kids are welcome to be part of adult conversation on adult terms, and while this can involve an occasional kid interruption, it mostly does not. And I do teach the kids about *how* to conduct themselves in an adult conversation (usually at home, so it's not like I'm spending my adult conversation time moderating my kids) - I'm not leaving it up to chance. Idk, I don't think most of us on either side are *that* far apart. If you have older kids, sometimes they are with you and sometimes they are off with other kids. There are different expectations for them when they are with you versus off with other kids. The difference seems to be over *how long* they are present with you/other-adults, and how *disruptive* their presence with the adults is. I don't mind if they are present for a time, and I don't find it disruptive. And this has been the general tone of my extended family and adult acquaintance circles thus far (wrt family, adults & children, events). Other differ. But if you sat down at one of our events, it's not like it's all-children-all-the-time in the adult conversation areas. Mostly the kids are off playing. They aren't a substantial presence in terms of time there, and when they *are* there, they aren't a substantial presence in terms of the attention they attract. Idk why, but there seems to be an assumption that children's occasional presence is *inherently* attention-getting, and ime that just isn't the case with older children. But ymmv. (Otoh, the presence of older babies and toddlers, too young to run off and play, and too old to sit still in mom's lap - that can definitely be a distraction. Which is why in our family the adults switch off who watches the littles play, so they don't need to be a distraction to the adults conversing (and the parents can get a break and some adult conversation). Or (with my shy kids), I'm consigned to kid watching till they are old enough to go out of my sight. That was a sucky time, where I was starved for adult conversation. But that was with toddlers and preschoolers, not school-age kids.)

Idk, that's not been my experience. Idk how much is because I don't see some of those kid outbursts as big deals - "Mom, I don't remember that!" "Well, it happened _________. And....." - versus how many don't really happen in our specific situations with our specific kids. So far whatever unsolicited advice they've offered in good faith has fell on the "cute" versus "offensive" side of the coin. (And they only do that with adults they know well, adults with whom they a relationship that allows for that sort of learning experience.). And their interruptions about how things "really" happened have thus far been sporadic enough to not be a big deal. Some of your examples seemed to involve polite social lies, and idk, I try to find polite things to say that are also *true*. I've actually practiced with the kids on thinking through polite things to say that are also true when it comes to thanking people for well meaning gifts/whatever that didn't work out as intended - I think that's an important life skill. And it makes them more sensitive to those times, and less likely to offer an ill-timed correction to what I am saying. My kids were very shy at the ages they were most socially unaware, so there was less of the preschool thoughtless bluntness in public. But the topic is age eight plus, and so far both of my 8+ kids have been capable of learning to think about others' feelings. Plus I do value kind truth over a kind lie, so I try hard not to tell social lies in the first place, which means I don't have to worry about an inopportune kid correction uncovering my polite untruth. And it's not as if my dh and I don't have private conversations - I don't talk about things in front of the kids if I really don't want them to tell others (or don't want them to know for whatever reason). But otoh, we do talk about some things in front of the kids that need to stay within the family, and we tell them that (and *why*) and it's never been a problem. In general when they ask about potentially sensitive issues (like diets), I include a guide to where and when and how to discuss those issues with others, especially others you don't know too well, too avoid causing inadvertent offense. Idk, my kids have blurted out plenty of overly blunt sort of tmi things, but they all fall under "slightly embarrassing kid things the adults get a good chuckle out of" - nothing truly embarrassing or cringeworthy, nothing that needs *distance* before the involved adults can find it funny. And the only conversations they tend to monopolize are with grandparents - with adults at church and in big groups, they do just fine listening and not interfering. Whatever blabber mouthing they do has so far been within our expected norms and has been relatively easily dealt with, and hasn't seemed to cause issues with adult friends. (Honestly, usually they go play. But if they want to listen, they can and do, and they only real problem I've had is when they got bored but were too shy to go play without me. But thankfully those days are mostly over :phew.)

Same question here. To me, quietly listening to an adult conversation (as I did many times), by adults and for adults, *was* me conforming to adults. I just wasn't *excluded* from adults. If I wanted to play, I could play - just elsewhere, where we wouldn't interfere with the conversation. The adult conversation area was for adult-style conversation, not noisy kid play. If adults wanted to play noisily, they left the conversation areas and went to the noisy play areas (either to play with kids, or elsewhere to play more rowdy teen/young adult games). If kids wanted to sit quietly and listen to the adult conversation, they came to the adult conversation areas. I guess that's the difference to me. Sitting with adults absolutely required one to conform to adult expectations. And the adults established where the quiet conversation areas were and where the noisy playing areas were, and noisy kids were sent out of the quiet conversation area. But kids who conformed to adult conversation norms weren't *excluded* from adult conversation areas. Sitting quietly and listening (and conversing once we were older, in our teens) was perfectly acceptable. Kids weren't excluded from adult areas - just required to conform to adult norms while we were there.

What app do you mean? Dh and I couldn't find one that was an "official" NOAA app, but various third party apps that use NOAA weather broadcasts to send out alerts. And this noaa page seemed to say that there isn't an official noaa app (but there are lots of third party apps), but maybe I am reading it wrong: https://www.weather.gov/subscribe

This is what I mean: https://weather.com/news/news/emergency-text-alerts-20120514

This is the one we have: https://midlandusa.com/product-category/weather/ Basically, it's a radio that receives NOAA weather alerts, and has a 90 decibel (or something like that) alarm that you can set to go off for specific warnings/watches/advisories. Some can't be turned off (like tornado warnings), but most can be turned on or off. I'd never really heard of weather radios with alerts before living in tornado alley (where you can have unexpected severe weather during the night and want to be woken up for it). As a kid, we had battery-operated weather radios that were capable of receiving NOAA broadcasts (used for hurricanes), but not one that had an alarm.

I was talking about the WEA alerts - it's not an app but something else - it overrides any silent setting on your phone when they come in. I might have to look into the noaa weather radio app, though, because the weather.com app we have isn't all that reliable wrt timely notification.

When I grew up, it was common and accepted for kids to sit and quietly listen to adult conversation. It wasn't so much "adult-only" adult conversation, but conversation mostly *by* adults. But it was open to anyone interested, adult or otherwise - it wasn't private conversation. I do the same thing - I don't consider a conversation open to any interested adult to be *limited* to adults so much as *aimed* at adults - so if my kids want to quietly listen, they can. I only send them to go play if they are getting antsy, and it's usually more of an invitation - you are *free* to go play - than a "you *must* go play" order. It never occurred to me that open-to-all-comers adult conversation was private in any meaningful sense.

Dh just got a new phone that is capable of receiving mobile alerts, and they *don't* go off for severe thunderstorm warnings (by design, because of how frequent severe thunderstorm warnings are in some areas - like ours). Our push notifications for weather alerts just make a small "ding" - you only hear it if you are in the room - it's not waking anyone up. The weather radio is our only option for a loud, wake-people-up alert for severe thunderstorm warnings. And it wakes the kids just as effectively as the adults :doh. I just asked dh what he thought, and he'd rather be woken up for severe thunderstorm warnings. So maybe on active nights we can turn off the alarm for severe thunderstorms till *we* go to bed or something.

We're on the edges of tornado alley, and right now we do have our weather radio set to go off for severe thunderstorm warnings. But I'm rethinking that. Our county is big, and half of our severe thunderstorm warnings have nothing to do with us. The one that just went off is for a storm that we would never have known existed if it weren't for the radio going off - it's way to the east of us and is going east. And on active nights, the radio could go off a dozen times for severe thunderstorms (we tend to get three or more warnings per storm as it moves across the county), and I get tired of the constant adrenaline jolt, the kids screaming "is it a tornado!?!" and hearts racing till we can walk over to the radio and confirm it's not a tornado warning. My criteria for weather radio alerts is "things I want to be woken up for", and when we got the radio I thought I wanted to be woken up for severe thunderstorm warnings (I was beyond freaked at the thought of severe storms at the time). But I *don't* want the kids woken up for them (which invariably happens, and then they can't get back to sleep, and stay up watching the storm with us, quietly freaked). And during the day I'm tired of all the ones that don't apply to us getting everyone worked up. So I'm thinking about turning off severe thunderstorm warnings. We'd still get push notifications on our phones/tablets, so when awake we'd probably notice. And if the sky looks threatening, we could go see if the red warning light was flashing. And then we could have less weather radio alerts and know that the ones we get are more serious. Thoughts? Things I'm not thinking of?

As someone who does that (throw my hair in to a bun and call it a day), I think part of it is that my hair is very long, and it's not blunt cut, but tapers down. Fairy tale ends, I've seen it called. It can be hard to have fairy tale ends look nice when you wear your hair down (takes a lot more split end trims than I give mine), but those tapered ends wrapped several times around a bun anchor it like nothing else. I actually sometimes forget to put in my hair clip (those lovely Lilla Rose clips mentioned above) and I don't even notice for hours. It doesn't work like that for my dds, who have mid-back, blunt cut hair. Their buns can't hold themselves, and my oldest dd's hair, which is thicker than my middle dd's (and so doesn't taper as much), can have a lot of ends sticking out, which makes it hard to clip firmly. I can get middle dd's hair into a firmly-held bun with two smallish claw clips, but not oldest dd's. Oldest dd's hair holds better if I do a half-up bun, and then wrap the lower part of her hair around that bun - the skinnier, longer twists make for a more secure bun, with less ends sticking out. Sock buns also work really well with shorter hair that falls out of a regular bun. Here's a good video tutorial: though it uses a purchased bun form instead of making one from a sock (and that size bun form on a pre-teen girl's head makes for a *large* bun). This tutorial shows how to use an old sock to make the bun form: and it also shows how to use hair spray and a curling iron to get everything extra sleek (it never occurred to me to do that, and I wouldn't except when extra perfect sleekness counts, but it was interesting to see).

Wrt "is long enough to tuck behind the ears enough to keep it out of my face", based on my oldest dd's experience my answer is "not really". She cut some wispies to frame her face - too long to go into a ponytail, but long enough to go behind the ears. And she is *constantly* re-tucking them behind her ear. Doesn't bother her - she cut them that way, after all - but they do fall into her face all. the. time. Wrt controlling wispies when your hair is back, I've had good luck using a bit of aloe vera gel. My dds' hair have tons of wisps that go nuts approximately 5 seconds after I pull it back, and aloe gel was enough to hold it all day for dance recitals. I like aloe gel, because you don't need to wash it out - it's both good for hair, and the hold is rather gentle - you can just comb it out when you take your hair down. But it's enough to hold my dds' wisps back and keep their dance buns looking sharp. I wear a bun every day (my hair's longer, though - between mid thigh and knee length). I started wearing it on top of my hair instead of at the nape or crown - so it's visible from the front - and it looks 100% better on me than when all you could see was my slicked back hair. (That's not true for everyone, but it was for me. And it looks different enough it's basically an entirely different style. Also, making *different* bun styles is nice for a change. Although 99% of time I wear the same basic cinnamon bun ;).) My kids always ask what's the point of my having long hair when I wear it up all the time - well, being *able* to wear it up is a major point. I have no idea how to do short hair and I can do a bun in the time it takes to do a "quick" short hairstyle (5 min), so the only reason to go short is because I want a short style. But then I'd lose the ability to do long styles.

Only if I or a trusted adult was there to be sure that the safety rules were being enforced. And if I could trust my dc to recognize when rules were being broken and to immediately get themselves away from the rule-breaking situation. Friends of ours had a dd who ended up with a compound fracture (arm) because of an accident at a trampoline park - an accident that involved at least two violations of the safety rules. It happened because a much bigger boy jumped on the same trampoline as her, and somehow she fell and he jumped on her arm. He never should have been in the same section, and he shouldn't have been on the same trampoline. When dh took the youth group there, I was pretty nervous *without* any of our kids going, and he promised to keep an eagle eye out for rules violations. (No one was hurt on the trip.) I admit I cannot be rational about the risks - my mom (physical therapist) treated a kid who was a quadriplegic after a home trampoline accident, and the story sticks with me. What I'd want to do is say absolutely not; I maybe (or maybe not) could compromise on watching them with an eagle eye to ensure no rules violations - because after our friends' dd's accident, I don't trust the trampoline place to enforce their own rules. But honestly I'd be a wreck the whole time, because right or wrong, trampolines trigger my anxiety big time. And honestly I don't think jumping on trampolines is important enough, although other aspects surrounding a proposed trampoline trip might be.

I budget $600/yr, with three kids (but this is the first year I'm actually buying for three). So far it's been fine for elementary. I've been reusing curricula with the younger kids, which helps a lot. And also I've been putting money into the homeschool budget since dd1 was a baby, and built up quite a stash of things before we even started :blush:. And I buy used online, usually older editions when I can find them at a steep discount, and hit library sales, and such. The $600 covers curricula, books, manipulatives, and most school supplies; music lessons and museum trips and such don't come out of the hs budget. Also I have an amazon credit card, and I put most everything on it, so that gives me an extra $10/mo or so in amazon points. Most years I spend half in the summer before the school year starts, and the other half as things come up during the year. This year I finished with nearly $100 left over (most years the budget is used up by Feb/Mar). One thing I've noticed is that curricula gets pricey, but "real" books are relatively cheap used. I've gotten 20-odd books on a topic for $100-$120; do that every year for 10 years in different areas, and you build up a nice reading library :). Eta: generally, I feel like me and my budget fall in the middling range. I can afford most book-centered curricula, and my habit of buying used means I can stretch my budget to cover a lot, including the occasional pricey new curriculum. But otoh, right now outsourcing is pretty much way out of my budget, so idk how that's going to go in the future.