Yes. There are plenty of lukewarm people sitting in church pews every Sunday. A person's relationship with God should not hinge on church attendance. Plenty should be happening outside of church whether or not you attend. I don't see why a person who reads and studies the Bible, prays and fellowships is automatically going to become lukewarm just b/c they don't sit in a building every Sunday. Their faith would need to be pretty shallow. Sometimes, I think, churches have so much busyness going on that they can become a deterrent to hearing that 'still small voice'. For that matter there is plenty of legalism happening in many churches too..

:hurray: I'm not 100 people, just one WTMer applauding your decision!

We left a club like that too. My Dc foolishly thought they could handle 2 clubs at once! Our current club has 2 meetings a month, all the other opportunities are optional things kids can decide to participate in.

Never heard of 'heavy hats', so that's not something we do here. Still, this is probably the best advice I've read. Be friendly, ask questions, and make your experience be what you want it to be. Finding a mom who can who you the ropes is a good idea.

:grouphug: I just wanted to share that my neighbor's dog was missing for 5-6 months and he was finally found and returned home safely. He had wandered into some woods and then near a construction site on the edge of the woods and the workers were feeding him. Someone finally realized he was the dog on the poster and called my neighbor. I know the wife was not sleeping much at all she was so frantic. I would be beyond upset if either of our dogs were missing. I once stayed up all night driving around looking for my cat who was missing, instead of studying for finals. She came back the next morning. Hoping and praying you will be writing your own happy ending soon.

While I posted a thread yesterday about my frustrations, I still think 4H has been an invaluable part of my Dc's education. I can't begin to say how much it has contributed to our homeschooling. However, I will say, I did have to ask a lot of questions at first. 4H is a great venue for homeschoolers precisely b/c of its flexibility. My Dc have been able to come up with their own event ideas, develop, organize, advertise, and supervise them. Pretty much anything they can dream up 4H will help them pursue and give them credit for. The public speaking and leadership opportunities have been invaluable. Though I am sometimes frustrated with the organization, it has been the most worthwhile organization my Dc have participated in.

But, they are ignoring this type of stuff too not just extra opportunities. I wonder sometimes, if we are being so willing to help members, that the parents are just deciding they don't have to pay attention. We went to a show with entries and it was fortunate that I had the forms with me, b/c none of the parents printed or filled out forms even though they were emailed, on the site, AND the group holding the show also gave them paper forms. It is frustrating. Plus I really like the kids and parents so I don't want to be in the position of haranguing them.

Dh and I had this one read at our wedding. Good choice! I have to think about OP's question. Too many good poems to choose from.

I might try again, and maybe next week thanks to this thread! I think I've had that pot roast too. I've thought about it, but never tried it myself. I can make apple pie like my grandmother, so at least i did get that right. Oh, and scrambled eggs. My scrambled eggs are fluffy and buttery like hers. My brother and I used to drive my mom crazy asking her to make her eggs 'like grandma does'. My poor mom does not have the magic touch!

Yes. One of the recipes my aunt gave me uses Grandma Browns and I did find them at a local grocery store, but no matter how I doctor them, I can't get them like my grandmothers--and normally, I'm a good cook.

i am not entirely sure! As a very young child I refused to eat them, and then someone got me to try them and they were so good and so sweet, they were even good cold! They were extremely thick. If you put a fork in them, it would stand up. When cooled they almost came out as a solid mass you could slice. I know they had mustard, ketchup and brown sugar, but thats about all I remember. I tried to ask my aunt, but the recipe she gave me did not turn out like my grandmothers. I'm not sure if she used a canned bean, or soaked dry beans, though I suspect canned. All through my childhood I remember people serving canned everything!

I want baked beans.......but I want them like my grandmother used to make them, an no matter how many recipes I try I can't seem to come up with the same taste and texture. Really makes me miss my grandmother. (Not just b/c of the beans).

I'm sorry that has been your experience. When we first joined we felt somewhat like you. thankfully, if I called the project leader, I was always able to get an answer, but in general the members at the time were not exactly forthcoming with info. That's one of the reasons Ds and I were trying to make information more readily accessible. Now I realize there can be a big disconnect b/t the parents (who maybe don't want another thing to do?) and the kid (who may want to participate more if they know about the options, but can't if their parents don't want to).

Don't you have entry forms for shows? Are the Dc required to keep record books of their 4H year? We've got that, plus a bunch of optional stuff we can participate in. Besides our project area kids can submit any type of project to the county fair, though many of them have no idea. I have no problem with people picking their level of participation. I feel bad for kids who would like to do more, but are held back by their parents. I've been thinking about it off and on today and I'm going to talk to Ds to see if we can come up with a way to survey the club to see who knows how to get info and try to come up with some sort of solution--if there is even an issue. The issue may be that parents don't want to commit to anything. That's fine. I'd rather they be honest than agree to do something and then flake out at the last minute.

This is how I have been thinking about it too. Except I feel bad if the kid is interested and the parent just didn't bother to let them know about something. I also don't want people to feel guilted into participating. Then, as another poster mentioned, leaders seem to get blamed for everything. Last year I had a family sign up to do something and they came to several meetings where the kids worked on the project. I could tell they didn't realize how long it would take and were tired of it. On the last day they called and said 'We can be there if you really need us, but we do have something else we should be doing.' I told them not to worry about it b/c, to me it was obvious they just didn't want to be there. I don't want to force people. Then when one of the kids recently recruited volunteers and explained that the project is a lot of work and requires a time commitment, she said that last year only 2 of us were left to finish the whole thing. Well, the mom from the family I told not to come piped up with "Oh, no. We did volunteer to help and YOU said you didn't need it." :001_rolleyes:

They set their own password. It's individual not the same password for the entire group. If they forget their password, the site will email them a link to set up a new one. It's not that difficult. I don't think many of the younger kids parents want them on Facebook, either. In addition to the shutterfly group Ds sends email notifications and includes attachments for specific paperwork if there are forms to fill out. Instructions are also included. Yeah, not going to do the phone calls, except on occasion. I call a few parents if they have said to me 'My Dc wants to participate in ___." Then I know they are interested and maybe they got busy and forgot. I can't see phone communication working b/c there are often documents that explain due dates, procedures, etc. If I put all of that into a phone call and not in writing, I know people would forget. I would forget! I need something in black and white that I can read over and over until my feeble brain gets it. :lol: I could make 20 phone calls saying this is a reminder to check your emails for ____, but that seems silly. If people know the group communicates via email and they aren't going to pay attention, then that is up to them. I am a member of several community groups. Every one of them communicates via email. If I am confused or don't understand an email I call or email back to clarify. To me, this is part of being a grown up.

I think my view of practical might be different from what you envision. I posted earlier about my choice to major in education. I do enjoy teaching. I think like a teacher and I am gifted in that area, so I've been told. I also had an interest in leading young people to be interested in the world around them, to want to learn and to explore. I also had talent and interest in other areas like art and creative writing. For a variety of reasons, I choose education instead. Yes, sometimes I wish I had chosen the things I was more interested in, but I am hoping I have time to do that once I'm done homeschooling, and I have had some opportunities to explore those areas on my own. I didn't necessarily have to major in them and seriously pursue them in order to enjoy them. So, I didn't just pick something practical that I had no interest or talent for. I choose the most practical of the interests and talents I (and others) noticed in myself. I would never advocate Dc choosing a major or career for practicality if they had no inclinations toward it--though I realize there are people who do so. I do see what you are saying and it's that argument that makes me want to advise Dc to pursue their passions. Otoh, Dh's passion is painting landscapes. He cannot make a living doing so, even though he has had moderate success at getting into galleries and selling. He has two degrees and one is in art. He's been able to pursue his art career to some extent and still pay the bills b/c his other major was more practical. When he was unemployed recently he had people giving him the advice that now was the time to switch careers and pursue his dreams. I think they wanted him to teach art (like there is a huge demand for art teachers, right?). I think they missed the point. Teaching art is not his passion, painting is his passion, not teaching other people to do it. He needed a job that would take care of his family and he found one finally, but it wasn't pursuing his passion. If he really wanted to go that route now, he'd honestly probably have to get rid of that pesky family counting on him. I also worry about pinning all your hopes and dreams on a career. Sometimes even when you reach your dream goals they don't end up being as fulfilling as you thought. Ds and I had that conversation recently b/c he finally achieved something he has been working at for a long time, and he felt sort of at loose ends. Still, there are people who follow their passions and they go very far even when the odds of success seem impossible. It's an individual decision and I respect you for being willing to support your Dc as they see how far they can go with their passions. I'm just such a practical person, I was never able to let go of that and pursue my own passions. I'll discuss it with my Dc, but I'll be letting them make that decision for themselves. Ds is closest to college and i have been honest with him about some of the things I regret not pursuing, and he knows I don't want him to have regrets. He's got the same problem I had and still have--too many interests and that complicates the decision even more.

:grouphug: Sorry, Jean.

I'm assuming this is not the type of storm you posted about earlier? Dd is currently cleaning one small square of her room and I have a 10 minute timer running. She's not the bawling type, though, more the angry, you-are-evil-for-telling-me-I-am-not-perfect type. Too many people have given her the idea she's a special snowflake.

The passion part is the only one I'm not too sure about. I go back and forth b/t being practical vs. following passions. Dh and I elected to be practical and follow passions on the side. I can see the merits of each approach. All the rest I agree with, not that my opinion is all that important and meaningful.... :tongue_smilie:

This is another issue we've had to deal with recently. Dd agreed to help a fellow member with a project for the fair. Now the girl who wanted to do it so badly thinks she has to bail and there are other new members involved. I'm not sure yet what we are going to do about it. I did tell the girl and her mom, that she needs to survey the people involved to see if there is enough help willing to take over and move forward. Originally, it seemed like they were thinking they'd just let me know and I'd figure it out!

Ds has already done this at several meetings, but it seems to fall on deaf ears--or maybe they ignore him b/c he is a kid? He's a very good public speaker though and confident, so it's not like he's been whispering. Glad you don't me me, personally! :lol:

Dh and I became leaders of an established club last year. We are just helping, not the main leaders in charge. When our Dc joined this club the people were nice, but disorganized. It took us years to even know what opportunities were available. Ds has been president for the past 3-4 years (I've lost track) and he has been on a mission to make all members aware of opportunities and basic 'how to' navigate events and requirements, etc. Believe me, the parents are well informed, especially compared with how little info we were given when we joined. Yet....yet... we repeatedly have kids/parents telling us they didn't know this or that even though multiple emails have been sent AND Ds and I, and at times even other leaders, have presented all of the info to the club in person at meetings, and it is all on the website. Now we are coming to decorating the trophy case at the 4H building this week, and despite all the info put out there, we have possibly 2 kids other than mine who are going to put things in the trophy case. My immediate thought was to start calling around to recruit stuff from other kids so that they will feel included, but I'm not going to b/c I am tired and I do have other things to get done. Do you have this happening in your 4H club? I seem to be in the position of having to decide whether to drum up participation or leave out kids constantly. Recently one girl came to a meeting and I showed her pictures on the website and she said she's never seen the website! It's a shutterfly site, so it's password protected and the mom hasn't shown it to her or given her the password. She probably doesn't see the emails either. She missed some opportunities she would like to have participated in b/c her mom didn't pass them along to her. I feel for the kids who aren't getting the information, but isn't that their parent's responsibility? ETA: The main leader and founder of the club has the attitude that she isn't going to hold parent's hands for them. I initially thought she was being a bit callous and that some people really need help to understand how it all works (I know from experience), but now I am starting to see her point b/c hand holding can be a part time job, it seems. I guess I'm wondering at what point do you expect people to put some effort in to get the most out of their experiences? We had to and we did, and that's how we figured things out. We had no one holding our hands or chasing after us. We asked questions, made phone calls, tracked down the people and found out what we needed to know, asked questions and chased down opportunities But maybe everyone isn't like that? Uggh! I'm frustrated.

Back to the tackle thread in hopes it'll help me get moving. I am not looking forward to facing Dd and her ADD sidetracking today. Kelly, I have blueberry muffins on the list too! Things I absolutely need to do: make sure Dc put together items for the 4H trophy case make a cake to bring to Ds's class tonight scan and email paperwork dog grooming w/ Dd various academic planning laundry - started, will be working on today and tomorrow, several loads done, putting another in forgot to list exercise! Already done, but not on the list: Dog walking/training house straightening phone calls/emails lunch called 4H office went to the store to get a couple of cake ingredients I am moving really slowly today....

I am aware such churches exist, and we did our homework, researched, visited many churches, and finally did attend one for many years, however, believers definitely were not free to disagree on anything. Our family is not an exact match theologically with the post I quoted, though close. Several of the churches we've visited have similar theology, as far as written statements and church doctrine, but when you start attending, listening to sermons, and interacting, the actual preaching and practice does not reflect the written statements. Yes, there is no perfect match, and that's why I'm curious about what HMinAz's family decided was a good enough fit for for them. And, this is somewhat of a tangent to the OP's question, however related to teaching children beliefs. Besides considering the theology of the church, a parent has to consider the church's attitude toward youth. In many of the churches that hold to the beliefs listed Dh and I see a move toward the idea that the church is responsible for the upbringing of the children. There is pressure to leave children at the church without parents and an unhealthy youth culture is developing in some. It's a question, for us, of what is good enough and what is going to be least harmful to our Dc, b/c we have definitely experienced, at minimum disapproval for not wanting our Dc involved in many, many unproductive youth activities, and we have even been chastised publicly for not agreeing with the approaches taken to youth in the church. I suppose this is a larger divisive problem among modern churches as they struggle to attempt to keep children within the faith, yet, it seems from the research and the anecdotal evidence, that church programs are not what reaches children. So, I suppose, what I am saying, is that parents have to consider whether or not the church is brainwashing the youth. By brainwashing I mean what has been mentioned in this thread as a mindless approach and maybe even forcing of beliefs. Now, if you knowingly attend a church that does not reflect your own beliefs as a Christian, you also have to consider what is taught when you are not around, and how your child will respond to hearing ideas that don't reflect your beiefs, plus how the adults will handle a child who might actually say his or her family doesn't agree! I am tired and sinusy this morning, and frustrated that my mind is not working like it should! May not be explaining myself well, but I did make an attempt! Hope I'm not drifting too far from the OP's post. I am thinking 'out loud' (so to speak) here about related issues and remembering posts from the other thread where people mentioned one of their big mistakes was trusting the church to teach their children Christian beliefs.