I think perhaps because I watched the show in its entirety over 2 months (instead of over 6 years), it hung together better for me. I thought the ending was appropriate, I just wish they'd not spent so much time on the sideways plotline. The writer's sorta set us up to believe the bomb detonation in circa '77 was related to the sideways plot, and I think that's led to lots of the confusion about who died when. We invested our 'suspension of disbelief' into that storyline, only to realize at the end, that it really wasn't even wholly connected to the true reality that was happening on the island.

:iagree: Brilliant synopsis.

I came to the same conclusion. I actually took a few years off from homeschooling, but now starting back again with my 2 youngest, I decided I'd start again with WTM....listened to the Mp3's and yep...basically all fired up to get going again using her methods and recommendations. :001_smile:

I kinda had a hunch about the alternate sideways storyline because of reading something the actor who played John Locke said in an interview. They asked him what his most memorable twist in a TV series had been, and he answered when Bobby Ewing showed up after being dead for an entire season of Dallas. Then he said something like, "That's what we do in LOST". So I figured the sideways plot wasn't reality. I suppose that's why I wasn't shocked or disappointed (LOST, yes :lol:) with the ending. I sorta was expecting it. BTW, our family started watching on netflix in February, and I KNOW I would've never sat thru watching one episode per week with commercials (though the Target LOST commercials last night were a scream!). We watched the last season on hulu, which only had 30 second commercials, and even that drove me batty. But we've not watched commercial TV for 25 years. We got the rabbit ears out to watch last night's finale.:D

If you ask over on the high school board, you'll find several mamas who have used or are currently using SWB's methods. It seems simple, but it is actually a very thorough and mind-stretching way to write. Giving coherent narrations in written form, taking paragraph-long dictations (in one chunk!), outlining non-fiction and rewriting in one's own words is much more difficult than "write a paper on this and such". The process exercises those brain cells at a much deeper level. Anyway, I'd encourage you to try doing the logic level writing SWB recommends yourself...meaning *you* do it for a month or so and see if it improves your own writing abilities. It was a real eye-opener for me :D peace.

I work as a consultant in a homeschooling bookstore. I'm just a paid employee, so my fee is minimum wage :D I think it's just a blast to work in that environment around all those new and used books! She sells new and used curriculum locally and thru her online venues, so I get my grubby hands on all manner of stuff all the time. 'Tis great fun... I'm pretty amazed at how eager newbies are to learn from someone who has been at this for awhile. They literally tear up sometimes when I help calm their fears. I made a big ole document to hand out to newbies and did afternoon seminars at the bookstore too. I like helping folks learn confidence in their ability to school their kids. And, well, I just like to talk. :)

After years of homeschooling, I'm still a bit confused on narration. :001_huh: Is narration a prerequisite skill for summarizing/outlining? In WWE (workbook 2), there are very specific questions for narrowing down a narration to 2-3 sentences, and in the Mp3's Susan talks about 'guided narration'. I originally thought narration was simply retelling in the child's own words (which never worked well for my olders....waaaay too wordy!). Do you use the guided narration method? It seems that if we get our kids to narrate just the skeleton of a story by identifying the main points/characters, it would ease the transition into outlining in 5th grade (ie: recognizing the main point, supporting details, etc.), but their written narrative summaries would be very short. I suppose I used to think narration was primarily for 'testing' a child's comprehension of a story. Now I see is as primarily a foundational skill that leads to later logic stage summarizing and outlining. In other words, it's a tool for teaching the process of writing. I appreciated the detailed examples SWB used in her Mp3's, but that was the first time I'd made a connection between narration and summarizing. Am I understanding the method properly? many thanks (and virtual chocolate), cindy

Thanks for all the replies....we used SS in first grade, and it was waaaay too much writing. I like the program, but we burned out on the everyday drill as well. I will look into the Vitale book as well as some other VSL resources. I'm second guessing my math choice for him as well. Thanks for all the suggestions...:001_smile:

My ds is an atrocious speller. Excellent reader, though. I don't get too worked up about spelling, but would like to use something that is quick, efficient and low-stress with him. I'm following WTM methodology (spelling 15 minutes daily), but Spelling Workout will give him fits. He doesn't like crossword puzzles and the like, and he hasn't retained anything we learned from it. When he was younger, we tried Sequential Spelling too, but it was too much writing for him. I'd like to equip him with tools, but not make spelling the centerpiece of our curriculum. Cheap is also good.:D I'm a bit shocked at the prices of some spelling curriculum..... Would Megawords be a good fit? There wasn't a single copy to be seen at my hs convention last weekend.

The rude replies you received from those teachers are a perfect example of why I wouldn't trust them. They weren't just talking down to/about you....they were just plain mean. You must've hit a nerve, and they all went into self-defense mode. Wonder why they feel threatened? I would have put more stock in their opinions if they'd responded more gently or even asked for further information. They probably don't know the nitty-gritties of what copywork/dication/narration entail. It's a heck of a lot more exercise for the brain than they are giving it credit for. Ah, but ya can't fix stupid. :D Copywork and dictation are methods that have been time-tested over generations. I remember reading that Charlotte Mason's students were requested for particular offices in the military for their excellent skills in remembering information due to their constant use of narration/summarizing/memorizing during their schooling. The only good writers public schools churn out are the 'natural writers'. The rest hobble thru dreading the essays and papers required at the college level. If you have doubts about SWB's methods, you could always try a more traditional method for teaching writing and see how your kiddo responds. Then you could compare them for yourself. I've tried lots of different stuff over the last 13 years with my 6 kids, even watching them in public school writing classes off and on, and I'm pretty much sold on the copywork/dictation/narration/outlining cycle. Too many hours of frustration and tears over ps-assigned writing have convinced me. My favorite quote: A person with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an argument. ('Course it works both ways...) peace, cindy

I've noticed a few discrepancies between her lectures and the newest WTM as well (grammar and spelling everyday in the book, 2-3 times a week in the talks, for instance). I think if her methods are working well enough on their own with your particular child(ren), you wouldn't need anything other a grammar text. That said, I'm planning to use MCT materials alongside SWB's methods. We get bored easily, and we'll need a change of pace now and then :D Not much help, I know, but wanted you to know that aren't alone in discovering some discrepancies....I suppose the talks are more recent than even the newest WTM edition, so maybe her own philosophy is evolving....

SWB mentions in one of the Mp3's about writing that in her experience, creative writing is a gift you either have or you don't. If your kiddo enjoys writing stories, journals, etc, let 'em have at it. If they don't, don't make them. It was a relief to hear that, as I've struggled trying to get some of my kids to write. She tells the hilarious story of her brother who is now a software engineer flunked his college freshman English course because he didn't do the daily journaling required. Of course her mother Jesse was appalled, but understood that his brain just couldn't see the point and had no creative bent in that direction. I suppose it's like playing an instrument or learning to paint....anyone can learn the discipline and skills, how to use the tools as such. But not everyone can (or want to) write original music scores or paint a lovely landscape if they don't have the 'spark' or desire. Giving our kids the tools of writing and teaching the discipline of getting words on paper are needful. We all need those skills. But demanding original, creative content is a skill only for those who have that desire and natural ability. The rest of us just need to construct a logical paragraph :D

I read Otto and Eagle to a 9th grader this year, and he enjoyed them, but I HATED them. I can't imagine trying to read these to younger kids and expecting them to understand the plot whilst I butcher the names of people and places every two sentences. I'm doing the same with King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table with my 9 and 10 yo boys right now, but they love it. Guess I better get used to heads being cleaved from their bodies for the next year of middle ages study :tongue_smilie:

Could someone who has used or is using both of these programs help me decide? I've considered using FLL (3 and 4) with each of my boys, but I'm concerned my older boy (rising 5th) will find it really dull. Younger ds is a rising 3rd grader, but his school was considering letting him skip a grade. I started him late in school due to his May birthday. I'm hoping for a good comparison as to how these teach the kiddos grammar. I realize both must be 'taught' via the teacher (that'd be me, but I don't have any issue with that), but it seems that I could do grammar together with MCT, whereas FLL would require me to do grammar separately with them. I love that there is poetry, vocab, and writing included in the MCT materials, but we are also using WWE. Thanks muchly for any input :)

Sometimes having too many choices is not such a great thing. Don't get me wrong, I love to research curriculum, but it can take over my life sometimes. Second-guessing my choices over the years has sapped much-needed time just doing school. Did you know that when a person makes a choice knowing that it can't be changed, they are more likely to love the choice they made? It causes them to be creative in making the choice work, and hence gives them satisfaction and a feeling of accomplishment. There's been research in this area, and I'll need to go find that and re-read it myself! When I started homeschooling 13 years ago, Saxon didn't even have a K-3 program. We used MCP in the younger grades, then Saxon 5/4- Algebra 2. There just weren't a lot of other choices. I remember using Jacobs for Geometry with my oldest because it was truly the only other option to Saxon at that level back then. All the kids have tested fine, coped with high school level math well, and have a solid understanding of the world of math even though they weren't 'mathy' kids. I have to constantly remind myself that it's not the curriculum, but the teacher that determines success. In other words, it it ain't broke, don't fix it. IME, only switch programs if *you* are struggling with the curriculum. And even then (and if the child is truly struggling), sometimes it just needs tweaked or used with a bit of creativity or supplimentation. Saxon may not be as popular on this particular board, but I work in a homeschool bookstore, and Saxon continues to be the #1 choice for both experienced and newbie homeschool families. My kids didn't love Saxon, but they figured it was better than the math in public school. :lol: They worked with it, and it worked for them. Now a disclaimer: With my middle kids *I* couldn't deal with the K-3 Saxon levels and tried other programs (Horizons). I also had a child who would burst out in tears with the Saxon middle grade levels, so we tried something else with her (TT). Now with my youngers I'm going with Math Mammoth and then Life of Fred because one boy is pencil phobic and easily overwhelmed, so I believe Saxon would overwhelm him. The younger could do Saxon easily, but for my sanity I want to keep them in the same program. But I still wouldn't hesitate recommending Saxon to new homeschoolers and veterans alike. It's a solid, time-tested program that still spins circles around anything a child would get in most public schools. peace. cindy

Hurray! So glad to hear of the success of WWE and older kiddos....I plan to use this as well with my rising 5th and 3rd grade boys coming out of a year of public school. I LOVE the Plan for Writing Mp3's as well....lots of specific direction for the teacher regarding how to do dictation and narration, how to test where to place the child in the program, when to start logic stage exercises, etc. Just fantabulous. SWB really holds your hand through the process. I am also teaching a friend's 15 yo son who has zero writing skills. I have considered doing a crash course of copywork, dictation and narration for a bit, then moving on to logic stage outlining and summary work. I'm hoping to get the teachers book to guide me with that....I'm thinking the workbooks might send him over the edge :D peace. cindy

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe SWB mentions in WTM that you can do both, but to exclude redundant assignments. I'm trying to decide myself what to use for grammar as we work thru WWE. hth, cindy

I guess I'm not super surprised....SWB mentioned something along these lines in her A Plan for Writing talks. She said spelling and grammar don't translate to their writing (testing may be the same?) till into the logic stage. It's been my experience with my olders (now graduated and both working in editing and writing), that grammar and spelling rules didn't congeal until 6th grade or so. My middles are in high school and still sometimes flub up. Grammar and spelling are skills that, according to SWB, need constant drill even thru early rhetoric for some kids. They are not intuitive or natural, and are not learned easily thru osmosis. I must say, in my experience, I must agree. Both my olders were voracious readers, excellent creative writers, natural spellers, and diligent in schoolwork. They both took many years to learn and then use grammar skills naturally and consistently. I'm considering MCT for my rising 5th and 3rd graders, but it would suppliment WWE and logic writing strategies....at which point I must ask myself "why spend that kind of money for a suppliment when I know it's not really necessary in the long run"... Anyway, it may not be the program at all, but simply his age. peace. cindy:)

I forgot about that pre-alg:biology book! I think I'll do some placement tests at Math Mammoth and decide if I should just do some of her blue series to get him up to speed on addition, multiplication and long division...then use the LOF stuff after that. The author says the kiddo needs to know his facts cold and be very familiar with long division before starting his series. Thanks for the advice gals :)

Looking at options for my rising 5th grade ds who will be coming out of public school.... For those who have used Life of Fred Fractions, Percents and Decimals, did you use it as a suppliment to a regular curriculum, or did you use it as the core curriculum and suppliment with other things (Keys to, Developmental Math, Mammoth Math Blue)? I have a student using the LofF Algebra books and we've not supplimented at all, but I don't know how the lower levels are structured. Thanks muchly!

I'm currently schooling the 15 yo son of a friend....he too was the victim of bullying as well as having health issues, so they pulled him out when I offered to school him at home. His folks had no paradigm for homeschooling and basically just said 'we trust you'. No alot of help. I have used the info from his high school to make sure I cover all bases. One issue that has come up for us is how to handle when he doesn't do the work. His mom is fairly forceful, and expects me to be the same. I finally had to tell her my personal philosophy of teaching, and how my personality fits that model. Basically I had to set the boundary and expectation. I gave her the option to find someone else if need be. She backed down, of course, and is so thankful for my willingness to help her son. So, I'd be sure the parents understand your own philosophy and methods for teaching, your expectations for the girls, your expectations of what their folks will or won't do, and everyone needs to know what the final goals are...if the parents have goals different than yours regarding a high school education, best to know that up front, and whether you can accomodate those expectations within your own personality and teaching philosophy. I'm learning as I go, so take this with a grain of salt! It's a huge commitment, but very fulfilling. It has also stretched me way beyond what teaching my own olders did (I homeschooled off and on for 12 years with the older 4 of 6). As I have 2 more little guys I'll be bringing back home next year, I feel much better prepared having had this experience with my friend's son. peace, cindy

I'm deciding between Elemental Science and Easy Classical science. I"m leaning toward Easy Classical, though because I'll have a 3rd and 5th grader doing science together.

Thanks so much for these helpful responses! I'll look into each of the programs mentioned, and talk with him about where he feels he needs the most help. I see him struggle most with knowing what to write. He can follow the 5 paragraph formula fine. His writing is just dull, and I can sense he sees no purpose in it. I think imitation would serve him well, re-telling stories in his own words, or even using a story starter to jump-start his creativity. He needs to just get comfy writing his ideas down. I realize he's going to need the tools and practice using them to craft academic papers on his own, but he hates writing so much, I feel his remediation will need a hefty dose of 'easy' assignments that just get him writing. I've considered asking him to start a blog as well. Any thoughts on this? He definitely enjoys typing his work as opposed to writing on notebook paper. Then there's the whole taking notes/outlining issue that I feel is crucial to higher learning. Heck, I use it myself when I'm trying to assimilate new information regarding things from decorating to cooking! Again, I appreciate this board so much....I have been a member here off and on since 2000, have graduated 2, and still homeschool my youngest two. Having a student who struggles with writing has been a real challenge for me as my own kids were fairly natural writers. In fact, my oldest works in editorial work, and my next does graphic design and writing for websites and brochures. :D I'm in competition with video games too. I seriously don't know how public school teachers can inspire a generation who only know how to be entertained and see no need to be creative and original. I hope that through the history reading I've done with him, he is slowly catching the idea that beautiful words used in imaginative ways can be powerful and worthy of emulation. peace, cindy

AWesome! I'm writing all these down. Keep 'em coming!

I'd love suggestions for games to play this year with my two boys, 9 and 11. My hope is to make Fridays 'Game Day' where all learning is done via games. I'm looking for math and LA type things, art and music history games, logic games, geography and anything having to do with the middle ages. I'm looking so far at: Cathedral Game Castle Keep Equalz Parts of a Whole Cards What fun games have you used with boys in 3rd and 5th? :bigear: