M&M
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You are offended because I decry the racism openly expressed in texts used by TOG?
Do I need to pull passages from TCoO to make my point? I hope not.
There is a vast difference between teaching ones children that there are racists out there in the world, and using history textbooks filled with vile bigotry as ones teaching materials.
Is it OK with you how Native Americans African Americans and the issue of slavery are portrayed in This Country of Ours? That does not insult you???
I'm sorry, but I think your feelings of insult are misdirected.
Bill
No, my offence is at your passing judgement on a whole curricula that you know nothing about basied on a quick search. How did you happen upon just those books that offend? I have used three years of TOG and have never encountered any books of this type before.
Do I disagree that TCOO may be a terrible book...no, because I have not read it and will not pass judgement until I do. You however have not only passed judgement but also recommended books that you admittedly did not read. You did not read my post explaining my offence, you have not read much on TOG, or the alt book you suggest, yet you set yourself up to be expert in this area.
I am offended that I as an African American have been put in the position (by you) that I have recommended a curriculum that you have now dubbed racist. I am offended that you accuse the Sommervilles of racism so very quickly.
Do not tell me where my feelings should or should not be directed. Address me with respect or not at all.
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I don't like all of their or anybody's book selections, but TOG does one thing better than anything other program I have seen. It leads your through deep, throughtful discussings with the highs shcool level student weaving together various sources and asking the kids to think about the implications of related historical events. We'd all like to think we can do that ourselves, but in the real world it takes more time than a homeschool parent has for one subject.
Here is an example, one question from each level in Week 8 of the TOG unit I have.
Upper Grammar - Marco Polo wrote a Book about his journey's called The Description of the World. Using either your resource book or online resources, try to discern whether or not some of Marco's descriptive stories actually happened. If you think they were exaggerations, give reasons for why you think so.
Dialectic - If the Mongol Empire was the largest land-empire in history, why don't historians spend more time studying it?
Rhetoric - After he returned from his travels, marco Polo was captured and jailed in an attempt to defend his city, Venice. Can you connect the skirmmish with the study we have been doing of the political history of the Italian peninsula?
or
Outine and prepare to discuss the ways that the development of towns and guilds affected fuedal and manorial relationships, government structures, and the ordering of society.
Each of the R level questions has at least a page of teacher notes so that you can have a cheat sheet for the discussion and guide them intelligently.
I'll stop now with TOG. I spent many, many hours researching when my ds was in highschool so that I could have thoughtful discussions with him. I read all of his books plus other backgorund information, but I struggled to stay ahead of him. Lots of people look at TOG as a booklist + . I think its strenght is really in the rest of the program.
:iagree::iagree:
Thank you for this post. It gets to the heart of what I was trying to express (it is hard to think with a headache).
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Don't be insulted. I am sure TOG can work for many families. I am sure it has. And I don't think anyone said TOG was full of or perpetuated bigotry. I think TOG is just too complicated to use...
There is bias in any textbook or history book that one will read with their kiddoes. It does make good discussion....however, I really dislike the books I mentioned (TCOO because it is just so archaic,) and the others because there was just so much I had to unexplain it made no sense to continue. It just took up way too much time :tongue_smilie:
There are going to be curricula that I love and use that others positively hate and would never use....the beauty of homeschooling is we are not forced to use them anyway.
I am not into sheltering my kids from the things of the past...that would be unBiblical. They need to learn from the past so that the same errors in judgement and horrors of bigotry do not continue...BUT to saturate them is a text I have tons of issues with is crazy.
I love the idea of TOG, and I am sure there are many parents out there who use it profitably, BUT I still think it overcomplicates things and made school a very heavy burden for me to carry out.
TOG could still work...as I do not think it is "suggested book" dependant.
This will teach me to reply pre-coffee.....
arg!
Faithe
My issue was that Spy Car would dismiss TOG completely due to a few books that are often found in other curricula. I do not think that TOG is for everyone, and I agree that a book that is offensive need not be used unless one chooses to use it to spur discussion. I have never had anyone suggest that TOG should not be used due to bigotry, I was surprised to say the least. I do believe that was what Spy Car was saying, if I misunderstood then I apologize.
Yes, there is bias in all history some more subtle than others which is why I choose to use Socratic discussion as a learning tool. As you said, TOG is not suggested book dependent, so two or three books out of hundreds should not be the end all of choosing it.
There is no way that TOG would work for everyone, how boring life would be if there was only one choice for curricula or anything for that matter. I would love to do WTM as written, but find it difficult to accomplish with a large family. I can see that TOG may do the same for other people :). You dislike TOG after using and finding that it is not a tool that helps you to teach your children. I completely respect that! I feel the same way about MFW, it just didn't work for us and may folks here love it.
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SOTW is also scheduled in TOG, so if you want to still use it (I do for my younger children) you can. You will have more lit and history resources to add to it. BTW, I believe that the books Bill referred to are used in the D and R stages when there is more opportunity for discussion --which is a huge part of TOG in those levels.
You really cannot go wrong with any of the suggestions, MFW, Biblioplan, etc. are all really great curricula. It really makes it hard to choose.
Good Luck!
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Thanks Aubrey! I have not encountered these books yet, as we will be using Y2 this year. I just don't think that because there are a few books in TOG that may offend, does not mean that there is something wrong with TOG. I have seen these books used in lots of curricula because they do bring something to the table, Ambleside comes to mind.
Many children's books of the past were written this way,(Hillyer, Guerber, even Mary Poppins) I do not defend this, and perhaps I will not use those books. But that does not diminish the value I find in TOG.
Any curricula is a tool, and in an imperfect world, we find the best tools we can and put aside what does not work.
Hope you find something that works for you!
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Oh for goodness sakes Aubrey you can't use TOG.
I just popped over to see what books this program uses. Oy Vey!
For American history the spine is H E Marshall's This Country of Ours. Well TCoO is full (stem to stern) of some of the most contemptible bigotry and racism imaginable. Native Americans are described over and over as blood-thirty and murderous savages, blacks enjoyed their enslavement, Mormons are shifty horse-thieves, and so on. Absolutely vile stuff!
On their supplementary list are works like The Courage of Sarah Noble which further deepen negative stereotypes about Native Americans.
And they have the kids reading Douglas Wilson who is a well known apologist for slavery.
This is not where you want to go.
There is a great American history series Matroyshka brought to my attention called The Drama of American History. This is a top-flight series for this age. It is intelligently written, interesting, and exceptionally fair-minded.
Use The Drama of American History as your spine for US history.
For World History I've heard nothing but wonderful things about K12's two-volume The Human Odyssey. The TOG alternative appears to be Van Loon's The Story of Mankind , which is another really awful piece of work.
You've got to be able to do better than Tapestry of Grace.
Bill
I am too sick today to discuss this, but as an African American woman with Native American ancestry as well, I find your comments very insulting. Just because a curricula uses certain books, does not mean that it condones bigotry. There are lots of classic books that would not hold up to today's standards, they do represent the views of some at the time. I feel that to educate my children does not mean I will shelter them from the mistakes of the past. By doing so, I would allow them to walk out of my home unprepared.
You have no idea how TOG uses its books and what parts of these books are used.
There are hundreds of resources in TOG. I have not used all units, but have not encountered any bigotry in TOG.
I am having a hard time not feeling insulted as I suggested TOG.
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Does anyone have a schedule or a list of TTC videos that you used along with TOG? I have purchased several of the Middle Ages videos (low, middle and high or something like that). Now I am wondering how I am going to coordinate these with TOG.
I don't want to seem lazy, it is just that we have put most of our books in storage since our move, and it is really hard to plan when most of my resources are in boxes.
Any help is appreciated!
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Wow, that's probably the nicest hs compliment I've ever received! :D
Yeah, I looked at the TOG booklists. I buy books on clearance at 1/2 Price, library booksales, etc. I've got SL & WTM lists pretty well memorized, etc. We've got over 1000 kids' books here, catalogued. So I figured TOG would be a walk in the park for us.
We own less than 10% of any of their lists. :001_huh: I couldn't believe it. I suspect, though, since I know the quality of our lit, that we've got books that would work...but then...*groan*...that starts to sound like a lot more *work.* If you're piecing stuff together, then...you're back to doing it on your own, & I'm not sure TOG's price tag is so worth it.
I have a lot of books at home as well, some do not fit into the TOG booklists, but it still works. TOG's value does not rest in the book lists, there is so much there! In the UG and LG stages really one book on George Washington is much the same as another.
I started with the Classic, and although it was much harder to use (no D level discussion outlines), you didn't feel like you HAD to use the books on the list. You could see more that it was the topic you were trying to cover not having a certain book. In redesign, there is an alt book list, in classic you could use abc book or xyz book or 123 book. All would cover the topic and you could get on with the discussion.
Of course lit is a different story, but that is only an issue if you decide to do the worksheets for the lower levels. You can easily use WTM or CM type narration if you choose to substiute a book or WEM questions for older children (I may actually use all of these methods this year with my children).
The greatest value for me is that I can coordinate all of my children ( and I will have children in every level this year) and still stay on top of everything just by reading my teacher's notes.
Now if only someone would design a TOG for science :lol:
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Sounds like TOG would work for you. On your ambitious weeks you can pick projects, when you want to dig deeper there are resources right there for you, and when things get crazy, you can pick fewer things to do. Since TOG is a unit study every week, you don't have to have all of the resources they list (R level is a little different), we have done just fine with the books we had on hand. I always have some sort of Encyclopedia or Text from the alt resources to fill in the weeks we don't have the main books listed. We have done just fine.
BTW, school sounds like fun at your house wish I could visit!!
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I have been wearing dresses and skirts almost exclusively for the last 6 years. I have had not trouble doing anything in them. I do feel more feminine in them and I feel very uncomfortable in pants. If you love wearing them, I say go for it and enjoy!
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I would like to know what you didn't like about it as well.
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Still in the planning stages, but so far we will be doing
TOG Year 2 history, literature, church history, art history, and Government
IEW - writing
Vocabulary from Classical Roots
Grammar - tba
Apologia Biology w/ some labs at co-op
Math-U-See Algebra 1
The Latin Road to English Grammar 1 (still considering this one)
Traditional Logic
Possibly Spanish or French
Elective classes at Co-op - Musical Theatre and Set Design
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Their copywork for boys, the sports themed one, has been a huge success with my oldest son. He hates writing and copywork, but this he will do without being told.
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You are welcome. If you feel like he is shutting down, then take a break and let him read for fun.
My oldest went from loving math to totally shutting down for a year because he was not ready for long division. We stopped, backed up and did fun stuff for a long time. When we went back to math, he was ready for more and excels at math now. There is a balance to find between developing skills and a child being developmentally ready for something. It is hard, but part of the joy of homeschooling is finding the right balance for each child.
Hope I don't sound preachy! I just want to encourage you, it is hard to know waht to do and is easy to doubt yourself.
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OK so I just recently started WWE 1 with my 8 yo girl and 7 yo boy. My dd loves it and begs for it. My ds on the other hand can't stand it and doesn't understand why he always has to answer in complete sentences. I always make sure I read the passages with enthusiasm and speak clearly. My son can almost never answer the questions. He just says "I have no idea". When he does know the answer he tells me but feels embarrassed when he doesn't. He tries so hard but we are on week 14 and it's just not working for him. I wonder if I should wait a bit longer with him like I did with my dd (who is 14 months older). I usually have to tell him more than once to do something. I don't have to fight with him he just didn't hear me the first time. My dh used to think he was ignoring us but I know that's not the case. So I believe it's safe to say he's not an auditory learner. I don't know a whole lot about the different learning types but is there a writing program for this type of child? Aren't they pretty much all taught this way? He loves ETC. He loves workbooks, mazes and I Spy sort of things. He's a very smart boy. He can tell you the name of every dinosaur that ever lived, what they ate, looked like and what "period" they lived in. He just can't tell me about the paragraph I just read him. I don't know if that means anything as far as suggestions. Does anyone have any advice? TIA!
Narration is a skill, it takes time. Try to break down the process, start with fewer sentences. Answering in complete sentences is also something that takes time. Listen to SWB writing workshop on grammar stage writing, she covers a lot of these issues. I
See if you can help him develop the habit of attention, have him look you in the eye when you speak to him. Let him sit and listen for short periods and then have him tell back just one thing. Slowly increase the time. I used to hold my son's chin and gently have him tell back to me whatever I just told him to do.
We had a great Suzuki teacher that was amazing at teaching boys to pay attention. She would give him something to concentrate on when he started to fade, she would change up the activity and give him a new focus. She eventually was able to teach my 4 year old to stand still and concentrate on one thing for 20 min. It took time and patience and I really miss her, I wish she would come and teach my other children :lol:.
This may not apply to your son, and if I am off base, forgive me. I guess I just want to encourage not to jump ship on WWE just yet. I have a son who is 6, he also loves mazes, I Spy, and ETC. I will probably be in the same place as you next year.
Hope this helps!
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It is a challenge to answer your question because those that use TOG for the most part (there are exceptions of course) do not use MOH (which Biblioplan uses). TOG schedules SOTW, so most folks who want a narrative history use that. Y1 in TOG takes you through most of the Bible, the subsequent years include church history etc. The teacher's notes in TOG help the parent and student have a biblical worldview of the history of man. I don't know what Biblioplan does for the other three years in it's rotation as I have only seen the ancients.
They are very different as BP is a schedule of books, and TOG has the schedule but there is so much more to TOG.
It really depends on what you are looking for in a curriculum.
p.s. - after looking at your blog, you might also like the hands-on component of TOG. Check out the free samples of TOG and look at the website and see what you think.
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Although I have 5 dc, I would still use TOG. It offers me the chance to learn ahead of my children, I wish I had purchased it sooner. This year my oldest will start high school, and I have a lot to prepare so I can teach her well. TOG give me all the tools, if we had it years ago I would have had time to work on the R level when she was in the G and D levels.
I don't think that TOG is more expensive than SL, once you have all 4 year plans you only need the books. You can purchase them or get them from the library. With SL, you are buy a new core and books every year...I am not bashing SL it is a great program it just is not cheaper than TOG.
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I was reading someone's blog entry on the internet and she talked about how she switched from SL to TOG after becoming interested in TOG and SOTW.
Is SOTW part of TOG, it seems it is not but people just add these?
SOTW is scheduled in TOG under alt resources.
What is SOTW anyway? Is it just readers, are they textbooks.. with workbooks?
SOTW is a four volume narrative history of the world for children. There is an activity guide with maps, coloring pages, additional history and lit resources. Our host SWB is the author check out http://www.peacehillpress.com for samples.
Does SL also used sotw ? with SL is it Part of their curriculum?
SOTW is used in the American History cores for older children I think Cores 6 and 7 (you'd have to check) using two books each year.
Also what does the term UG mean? There are so many acronyms used that I am just learning LOL.
UG refers to Upper Grammar stage, children in grades 3 -5 or 6. Many neo-classical curricula divide the stages of the trivium into different grades due to the fact that they refer to stages of development not grade levels.
thanks, loretta:lol:
I have used SOTW since it came out an we love it, we also love TOG.
Good luck
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I want absolutely no connection to public schools in any way. $$ doesn't entice me b/c with $$ always comes strings. I want freedom.
:iagree: :iagree:
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Check your library system for Teaching Company DVD's, then you won't have to purchase them.
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I wouldn't do it. Way too much like school, way overkill when you have such young dc. And I don't believe you can choose just a couple of subjects but that you have to do every.single.thing with ABeka. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think so.:tongue_smilie:
:iagree::iagree:
There are so many great things out there to do. Save your money for the upper grades and look at WTM for ideas.
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I've seen it! Trust me, it would make your eyes pop out!
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I'll be there Monique. I'm looking forward to the Classical Legacy Press booth and I'm excited to see *Anj* and Elaine and now you. :D
I saw that post today, and now I am curious as well. I also plan to question you about LTW!
So now can y'all prescribe history?
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
You are correct, I a wrong about this. And for this I apologize. Your pov on TOG and mine are different and I will leave it at that.
I regret any discourse with you as you seem to enjoy being the antagonist good for you, I am done. If you had just stated your view of those books and left it at that I would have never entered into a discussion with you.
I hope that anyone interested in TOG will check it out for themsevles and make an INFORMED decision.