Is this a museum? Or are there stand-alone science centers (that would be cool, but I have never heard of one before)?

I think I remember seeing a kid's treadmill somewhere.

Has anybody heard back on this yet? They just opened up the criteria for anyone who thinks their child may be highly, exceptionally, or profoundly gifted to apply.

I have no experience with it, but it looks intriguing. If the books are high in quality, they might be worth the price. I took a quick look through the materials list, and it looks like putting together a kit for one student on your own wouldn't be too difficult or expensive (maybe a little time-consuming though). So, no talking off the ledge here. :001_smile: Let us know how it goes!

It's possible that your daughter's behavior is still within the range of normal for a gifted child. My older daughter frequently ignores us when we speak to her and also is not influenced by rewards or punishments. I think that she ignores us because she is engrossed in thought and that she is so fiercely independent that she resents being "manipulated" with rewards and punishments. Some of your daughter's behaviors may also be influenced by being lost in thought and being independent. She also sounds like a very divergent thinker. You may want to look into the Myers-Briggs personality types for explanations. Types in the rational group (ENTJ, ENTP, INTJ, and INTP) are naturally germaphobic. A combination of introversion, intuitive, thought, and perceiving preferences may make for a child who is somewhat unresponsive and has unique thought processes. These types are rare in the general population, but common in the gifted population. Gifted children are often misdiagnosed with psychiatric disorders. There is information on the SENG website about this phenomena and also this book "The Misdiagnosis and Dual-Diagnosis of Gifted Children" http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0910707677/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1329771118&sr=8-1 which is on my wish list but I haven't read yet. I would regard your doctor's opinion with skepticism unless he is an expert in autism or gifted children. I also agree with the Charlotte Mason recommendation, especially her ideas on habit training (training the character of a child using the virtues), not using rewards (apparently research shows using rewards actually backfires later), and also the outdoor time. I hope some of these ideas are helpful to you.

Tesseract?! See page 119 of quark's link. :001_smile: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348356&page=2

Nevermind

"In fact, I distrust people who claim that they know what is true, beautiful, or good." I distrust people who don't claim to know what is true, beautiful, or good.

This article is absolutely fascinating. http://m.popsci.com/science/article/2012-02/boy-who-played-fusion?page=all It is also timely, in light of all the STEM threads recently.

Thanks for clarifying. I think I understand your point better now.

These experiments are important for many other reasons. 1. They aid in moving concepts into long-term memory. The child who reads about electrical circuits may remeber the details for a few weeks. The child who builds his own electrical circuit will likely remember it into adulthood. 2. They encourage a child to extend the experiment with his own investigations and engage in scientific play. (What happens if I drop these other items instead? Why does the feather fall more slowly? What if it is windy?) 3. They teach technique and attention to detail, as well as physical intuition. Most branches of science are very hands-on. I am pretty much as abstract as they come, and coasted through high school with the read and understand method. Then I hit a wall in college. Science and math texts need to be read with pencil in hand to work through the problems. Preferably experiments in the book should be replicated. Just because you can read and understand a recipe for cake does not mean you know how to bake. If you are thrown into the situation where you suddenly have to bake a huge wedding cake for hundreds of people and you have never actually made a simple cake before, you are going to have a tough time. 4. Much of science is looking where others have gone before and replicating what they have done and extending it. When a new discovery is made, fellow scientists are called on to replicate the experiment for validation. I don't understand your last point at all. The whole basis of scientific experimentation is that the results be repeatable. There is a lot of value in getting data that does not support your hypothesis and deciding whether your hypothesis is wrong OR your experiment was flawed in conception or execution. A child SHOULD repeat the experiment until they get data that supports a hypothesis that is already accepted as scientific knowledge. The time he takes to determine his error will teach him valuable lessons in personal accuracy and evaluating variables. Certainly these experiments are not a complete science education and students should design and run their own experiments, but they are a valuable foundation. You can make them more valuable by doing the experiment before reading about related concepts and allowing the child to think about what is happening, quantizing as much as possible, doing error analysis, changing different variables, etc.

Traditionally, blue is associated with loyalty, purity, and serenity while red is associated with aggressiveness and war. Women wore blue and men wore red. Children's clothing was dyed last, so girls wore light blue and boys wore light red. You can probably think of some examples. Mary is portrayed wearing blue, Dorothy wore blue in the Wizard of Oz, boys in old cartoons wore red long johns. In the early part of the last century, this tradition was flip-flopped (I want to say in the 1940s, but I can't remember offhand.) So you can just tell people you are traditional. :001_smile:

I recently became aware of these really cool links http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/ http://www.exploratorium.edu/explore/ http://www.exploratorium.edu/digital_library/ The website has lots of free science and engineering projects. I visited the museum back in high school, and it was a really interesting place.

:iagree: If the Department of Education really wanted to improve STEM education, they would focus on creating an environment that would attract teachers who are talented in STEM. Some of these potential teachers could handle the low pay, but cannot handle working in an environment where they are micromanaged by people who have little knowledge of STEM. STEM types typically have little patience for nonsense and inefficiency, which are dominant themes in modern education. Giving teachers more latitude over their own classrooms, rather than more one-size fits nobody regimines, would go a long way toward improving the state of education. Does anyone know if homeschooled students are accounted for in these rankings? I have heard estimates that ~1/2 of gifted students in this country are home schooled, and if they are not accounted for it would probably drop our standing considerably.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am definitely trying to avoid battles of the wills, as my children are as stubborn as I am. The use of consequences has also been virtually ineffective with them as they value their autonomy above any consequence I can implement. That really only leaves me the choice of engaging their moral and logical sensibilities. At three and one this can be tedious work, but I can only hope it will get easier as they age. Certainly, the more independence, responsibility, and challenge I give them, the more they thrive.

Ester Maria, thanks for the hugs. I was specifically asking about character and behavior training, but would be interested in hearing how you handle academics also. Many people who homeschool are under pressure from the state and their families to teach their children the way the schools would. Without awareness of their children's giftedness and the issues that come with it (asyncronicity, sensitivity, perfectionism, etc.), homeschooling parents of gifted children have a much more difficult time adapting their methods to best meet the needs of their children.

I would be curious to hear more about the methods you have found to be successful with your daughter. I have enjoyed this discussion. I'll just leave you with a few more comments on your last paragraph. I didn't have most of the options you mentioned available to me (and I was laughed at for suggesting some of them). I did make the most of it, escaped the bad neighborhood, and became relatively successful in a worldly measure. But I feel like a part of myself DIED in that school. I knew I was angry before this, but this is a new revelation for me. It wasn't merely coping with a non-optimal environment, it was a toxic environment. I miss that part of myself. When I was finally able to meet others like myself, I had been so poisoned it took years before I could even relate to them correctly. I don't want anyone else to ever have to go through that. I suppose it would be hard for someone to understand unless they had been through it themself. But yes, I am also still grateful for my education, even though that's another contradiction. Probably way too much sharing but worth it if it spares another pain...

I believe we would agree about many of the same things in practice, but we really do come from different worlds (literally and ideologically). :001_smile: I don't think that academics and behavior can be separated for gifted children, because academics and emotions cannot be separated for gifted children. Potential can be measured with a certain margin of error. It is also fluid and can change over time. It sounds contradictory, but as a physicist I am okay with that. My concern with achievement in the classroom is that someone who scores a hundred on a test may be grouped with someone who scores a ninety. They may be nowhere near each other in learning speed or ability. The person with the hundred may not have even been challenged whereas the person who got the ninety may have studied for hours. They get put in the same class and the first person understands the new concepts in five minutes but it takes 2 more class periods for the second person to understand. Their achievement looks similar, but it is not relative to the potential of each. I think it is interesting that I find tests more objective and you find achievements more objective. Perhaps you could give me an example of an objective achievement. Academic achievements mostly seem political to me, think Class tests (pre-college): which are maybe ten percent critical thinking Science fairs: usually the best project copied out of a book wins Mock Trial: my school won the most cases, but the kids from the rich school brought the most judges and got the most "style" points, so they went to semi-finals Important Woman in the Community Awards (or whatever): my friend had no idea how she earned that one Nobel Peace Prize: :svengo: Unless they involve a well-designed test they seem pretty subjective.

This is not nonsense, it is statistically correct. I have never met anyone like the people described above. In real life and on these forums, people seem hesitant to describe their children as gifted, at least until they have test scores or some other undeniable proof. This often grieves me, as it can postpone understanding. I certainly advocate self-control and discipline, but I feel your comments oversimplify the situation. If a child's external behavior is brought into line without consideration of his internal life and differences, he is likely to have a breakdown at some point in his life. Part of developing a successful life for a gifted child is acknowledging and appreciating his differences, so he can better adapt to the world around him. School is an artificial environment and many people are not well-suited for it (at least without accommodations). If a child is not living up to his potential, it should be investigated. Character issues may be a cause, but so could learning disabilities, poverty, compromised mental health due to profound boredom (this bothers people when it happens to captive animals and prisoners, I don't understand why it is allowed to occur in schoolchildren), or other reasons. Turning a blind eye to potential in favor of often subjective measures of achievement is a recipe for mediocrity.

I like these two 5 Levels of Gifted: School Issues and Educational Options by Deborah Ruf Creative Homeschooling: A Resource Guide for Smart Families by Lisa Rivero

Thanks for the update, glad you liked the books. I thought that binary game looked interesting too!

Well, I can't speak to using the books with an elementary age student, but I do have the first book and have done some of the activities with my 3 year-old. The book separates out math skills and describes how to teach each one using real-life application, games, and activities. There are also sections of the book devoted to reviewing different math manipulatives, books, and games. There are no problems in the book. It was written so as to be accessible to non-mathy parents (although I am mathy). The aim of the book is to improve the math skills of children by making it part of their everyday lives and helping them to develop intuition. It has been enjoyable and useful to me (but I have not reviewed any other math programs). So, if you are looking for something to give you ideas for activities and games to do with your children, or to pinpoint the skills they should be working on, you may like Kitchen Table Math. If you are looking for problem sets or independent study, you will need to look elsewhere. (I have only seen the first book.)

Thanks, I found the website. That is useful to know about for when my kids get older.

What is Colorado WATS?

This situation reminds me of one in my own childhood. In fourth grade, I kept complaining about having to participate in the gifted pullout program and stating that I would like to quit. It was not particularly challenging, but I was used to not having to make any effort. Eventually the teacher took me for a walk during recess and had a long chat with me. She told me about my own potential and how she would like me to keep coming to the pullout program. She then told me that she had gotten permission to allow me to quit if that was my desire. Her talk was so influential that I continued with the program and had very few problems, as it was my choice to be there. Take her somewhere special and explain to her what a special gift she has. Tell her that Developing her gift is her choice, she must choose to challenge and push herself, and that you cannot force her to excel. You will support her in any way possible. You and the state have certain minimum standards that she must meet. There are several curriculum options that you have researched and that you believe AoPS would be the best one for developing her talent. Explain the other options as well and that you are also open to hearing her ideas (but they must meet your minimum standards.) You might mention the option of the online class as she may like the idea of comradeship and competition. This is not her last chance to choose to develop her gift, but it is the first. It sounds as if she is trying to redefine her relationship with you. If you let her choose which path she wants to take, you remove yourself from the situation and she is left with a simpler choice (whether or not she actually wants a rigorous study of math vs. whether she wants to give in and do what Mom wants her to or not). She may choose the more difficult curriculum, and then you will have much smoother sailing. She may pick the easier curriculum and then come to you in a few weeks having changed her mind. She may pick the easier curriculum, stick with it, and pursue other interests, in which case math probably wasn't going to be her primary interest anyway. I don't think you have anything to lose, and you may gain her cooperation and teach her to be self-motivated. Of course I could be completely wrong. My oldest kid is only 2. :001_smile: