Um. Yes. Gosh, Joanne. You have the patience of a saint. :grouphug:

This is helpful. Thanks. ETA: For the OP, I really think this is a complicated question. It comes up over and over on the boards, and it's come up again and again in our house. So much is going on during the teen years, and we are constantly having to adapt, as parents. Navigating this stuff is hard. My goal these days is to take baby steps in helping my son take more ownership of his work, and that does require more effort on my part that I'd imagined. It's all hard.

For some reason, this tickles me almost as much as men in kilts. :D

Yes. I was hoping you'd weigh in, Lisa, because this is exactly what I feared. This is a no-win situation without help.

Oh, gosh. This is such a hard spot for you to be in! I'm so sorry, for you and for her. Is there any way that you could continue to do nature stuff in addition to the SAT prep? Wow. This is a very upsetting situation. So sorry.

You know, those scores are not that bad. Math, yes, very low, but a kid can bring up math scores by a hundred points or so without killing themselves. Have you looked at that Kahn Academy site? I haven't used it, but it's free. My son used Chalkdust Math SAT prep and brought his scores out of the toilet, so it can be done. I guess what concerns me is that this business put her in a bad, bad mood. Is she on board with this switch in focus? Was she only in a bad mood because she couldn't study? Have you asked her how she'd like to approach this? Also, when is she scheduled to take the SAT?

Just popping in to say, dang, Xander, am I glad you're here on this board!

I'll share ours, too. You'll notice that I "lifted" an idea, with permission, from Kareni's profile in my own. I actually found it very useful to look at other folks' profiles, and wish I'd done it earlier in the game. Our homeschool was classical-ish, but not "purist" WTM.

In my extremely limited experience, I have found their materials to be wildly inconsistent. The Latin syllabus for Henle is fantastic. The 10th grade Natural History is a great idea, but very thin, and required much, much more from me than I had anticipated -- the sort of situation where the amount of "tweaking" you have to do is so over the top, you realize you could have started from scratch and spent less time and energy to create something much stronger. Oh, that hindsight thing is wicked. I have heard others mention this as well, the inconsistency in the courses. I can't speak to program as a whole, though. I do know families who have been happy with the materials for the lower grades.

I've started a few threads that went downhill fast. So I know how it feels when things go in a direction you did not intend. But here's the thing -- this board is, itself, a great way to find out all the inside scoop on a book or program. If you don't have time to pre-read, do a little digging here, and you may find the disclaimer would have wished to see on the book. Heaven knows I've passed on some books based on what I have seen here (though, sometimes, it's the flavor of a "good" review that makes me realize a book won't work for us ;)).

I know! We need a support group. :D

This has been a fascinating conversation. I was mulling all this over while I worked in the damp garden today. ;) On a lighter note, I couldn't help but be reminded of an old English folk song, "One Man Shall Mow My Meadow." (You can hear a wee snippet of it here, track 28: http://www.amazon.com/Jackfish-More-Songs-Singing-Children/dp/B0000630CD/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301793487&sr=1-8 ) It's typically sung by a woman in the spring Revels shows that take place in various cities around the country; Revels was founded by Jack Langstaff, the singer in this disc. I have been in several of these shows, and one year the woman who was singing this song just wasn't getting the... driving, building oomph of the song. Jack Langstaff was visiting, and he was working with this gentle, sweet woman, and finally leaned over and whispered something in her ear. She blushed furiously, and laughed, and then sang the heck out of this little tune. She got it. Not all innuendo has to be disturbing and dirty. Some lies under the surface of our everyday world, that throb and pulse of life itself. Sexy, yes. ETA: you can hear another version here: http://store.revels.org/onemanshallmowmymeadow.aspx This one give you a better sense of the "cumulative" effect of the song.

Maybe not affordable yet, but I've had my eye on Latin for the New Milennium. You can see samples here: http://www.lnm.bolchazy.com/ I think you could definitely use Wheelock's, though. Every companion item, from bells to whistles, is not available, and if you take it slowly, I'm sure a young high schooler could manage. A while back I asked my classics professor friend what he would use with a kid that age, and he said Wheelock's. (Darn it! I was hoping he'd say, go with LNM.)

I love this.

Oh, dear. I just realized how long that post is! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I want to mention here that I think we are superior poster children for classical education, precisely because my children are not precocious, not gifted, just ordinary kids who have had exposure to a lot of good stories, and have had an opportunity to explore a wide variety of perspectives to hone their critical thinking skills. That said, I do often feel like my life is a joke. ;)

Not disclaimers, but general hilarity. I had no idea this would be my life. I started collecting the funny things the boys say a couple years ago, inspired by, I think, Julie, on the General board. Here are some history-related hilarity highlights from 2009, when the boys were 12 (Seth) & 17 (Eli). I've removed most of the ones that would be offensive, I hope. JANUARY 20th Seth, during a math lesson: “You are the most stressful mother to work with in my life. In fact, you’re the only stressful mother to work with in my life.†23rd Eli, looking up from his history book: "I'm not sure I like this Martin Luther. Or Zwingli. In fact, I don't know if I like Calvin, either. I know the truth about the Bible! No, I do. No, this is the truth!" Seth, growling: "Let's fight about it!" later… Eli: "I think I really hate this John Calvin. No dancing? Really. No dancing. And Oliver Cromwell actually tried to outlaw Christmas? And I thought these people were Christians." 23rd Seth: “Everybody knows the Tale of the Two Dragons, in King Arthur. EVERYBODY. Okay, maybe not everybody, but maybe like 90% of the population in Washington. Or maybe like 40 to 50%. I don't know.†later… Eli: “Dad. That joke was actually almost funny.†Seth: “Like, 40% funnier than your usual jokes.†27th Seth: “You ruined my tactical defense strategy!†31st Found note, dated 6/19/08: Grammar and capitalization practice, Nicole is reading, “The Mediterranean sea almost surrounds the countries of Italy and Greece.†Seth: “That’s because it is called a peninsula, you don’t-know-it-alls.†FEBRUARY 10th Nicole, asking a second time: “Seth, could you please hop into some clean clothes?†Seth: “But I’m just making a trebuchet!†11th Nicole: “Seth, shall we start with some math?†In the thinker pose: “I’m probing my mind about what to do.†26th Spelling test, Nicole: “Horseback… John Wesley rode horseback to some meetings. Horseback.†Seth: “That’s just… cheese factory. I mean. Horses are probably illegal in cities!†“Honey, John Wesley is an historical figure, the founder of the Methodist church, and he did ride horseback to some meetings.†“Well how was I supposed to know that?†“Because I just told you. Did you write the word?†“Oh. No. What was it again?†27th Eli: “They have this wrong. John Locke didn't write the Treatise, Hobbes did. John Locke wrote Levitation.†Nicole: “That’s Leviathan, honey.†MARCH 4th Nicole, reading spelling sentences: “Did that bird swallow the grasshopper?†Seth: “Actually, they beat it to a pulp first and then they eat it.†4th Seth, about a copper garden plaque that we'd just hung on the new garage: “And that face, by the way, is not the Green Knight.†Nicole: “I know. It’s the Green Man, not the Green Knight.†Seth: “In other words, it’s Bacchus, or Dionysus. Bacchus is the Roman name for Dionysus.†5th Seth, noticing a restaurant while driving: “Mmm! Mongolian Grill! That sounds good. Except. I do not really… appreciate the Mongols very much.†6th Seth: “Stop that internal racket!†13th Eli, incredulous: “You were an honors student?†Nicole: “Yes, why does that surprise you? Eli: “Well, considering your math scores on the SAT….†Seth: “Mom’s more of a moving dictionary than a moving calculator.†16th Eli, admiring Seth’s Playmobil Castle set-up: “So they’re under siege by Angles and Saxons and barbarians and stuff?†Seth: “Actually, they’re Visigoths.†25th Seth: “I’m bored. Do you have any suggestions about what I can do?†Nicole: “Um. Poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Seth: "EWWW! Polyphemus got the same treatment, and you know what? That's gross!" 30th Nicole, reading aloud from Huston Smith’s The Illustrated World’s Religions: “Sufis honor their ecstatics, but in calling them ‘drunken’ they serve notice that they must return to sobriety, bringing the substance of their visions back with them. In plain language, transcendence must be made immanent; the God who is encountered in isolation from the world must also be encountered within it…†Eli, “So… the Sufis are like the hippies of Islam.†MAY 8th Seth: “What’s your favorite ancient people, Eli?†Eli: “That’s a toughie. I would have to say the Athenians. The Greeks.†Seth: “I would say the Romans. Except for the slave part. Because they were cleaner and rarely got the plague.†Eli: “I like the idea of city-states. And democracy’s always nice.†[This discussion devolved into an argument about which civilization was better.] JUNE 14th Seth, at Eli’s piano recital: “Was that forte forte or metro forte?†20th Driving to Ikea, Seth: “Why do they call that place Apollo’s Spa? They should call it Helios’ Spa. Because Helios was the true sun god, until the Romans changed it. [Pause.] Hey! What are you doing? Are you writing this down? Let me check it to see if you got it right. 'Romans' should be in italics.†JULY 7th Grammar lesson oral drill, connecting sentences with a conjunction, Nicole, reading: “The wise man’s house stood. The foolish man’s house collapsed.†Seth: “What’s that from?†Nicole: “The Bible. The wise man built his house on rock, and it stood, and the foolish man built his house on sand…†Seth: “Quicksand?†Eli, from the other room: “It’s called liquefaction. It’s a geologic process.†9th Eli, moaning. Helpful Mommy: “Are you sure you don’t want to spend some time on the pot?†Seth: “Oooh! Ooooh! Oooh! Like that one guy who did most of his thinking on the pot?†Nicole: “Martin Luther.†Seth: “Aren’t we so educated?†AUGUST 22nd Nicole: “Heresy is speaking out against the Bible or church doctrine. So, for instance, the Catholics considered Martin Luther a heretic.†Seth, incredulous: “Of course he was a heretic!†23rd Eli: “You should teach me how to cook some stuff so that when I go to college I won’t be a complete ignoramus.†Nicole: !!! 23rd Seth: “Mom, you’re so old school.†Eli: “A simpleton, you mean?†24th Seth: “When can we listen to the end of The Return of the Native? I want to hear Eustacia DIE! DIE! DIE!†26th Nicole, wondering aloud during Eli’s history lesson: “Why are peace treaties always being signed in Paris?†Seth, from the other room: “The French! Fashion is their thing, not war!†SEPTEMBER 5th Seth: “We could have lived without Shakespeare.†18th Eli: “Seth, don't hug me. I have a tomato and I'm not afraid to use it.†21st Seth: “Rome could have been called Reme. If. You know. Romulus hadn’t killed Remus.†28th Seth: “You know what, Mom? I think school is fun until math.†29th Nicole: “Some people think Thomas Hardy is too depressing.†Seth: “That guy selling his wife?! Yeah. That’s depressing. I mean. That guy needs… some ginkgo biloba or… some serious drugs… or something.†Eli: “No he doesn’t. That guy is an alcoholic.†Seth: “Whatever! Dude. It’s depressing.†30th Seth, finishing a report on his history reading, “I simply despise the modern world.†OCTOBER 2nd Mom: “Honey, I have no idea what you’re talking about.†Eli: “Oh, yeah. I forgot. You don’t read The Economist.†3rd Seth, looking at the Playmobil catalog: “Why would a tribune be fighting with a gladiator?!†5th Seth: “The Bible doesn’t have very accurate battles.†Nicole: “How do you know? You haven’t read all the battle scenes in the Bible.†Seth: “Well, compared to the Romans…! The Romans marched in and BOOM! I mean, in the Bible… blowing their horns and making the walls of Jericho fall down? That’s not accurate. That’s just pathetic.†11th Seth: “Why don’t you go check your email, Mom?†Nicole, “Oh. Okay. What did you send me?†Checks email. “Hey. You didn’t send me anything!†Eli: “I know. He just wanted you to leave the room.†Seth: “We’re having a bloody battle!†12th Eli: “Semi-colons are fun, once you know how to use them! I mean, you just slap it in there, and you don't have to worry about commas and an “and†– and so long as your sentences are related, you’re good!†16th Seth, watching Nicole typing: “Women! They type as fast as they talk. Revolting.†21st Seth: “You have to be kidding me! Microsoft Word doesn’t know Mithras? It needs to touch up on its history.†21st Nicole: “That was mean, Eli.†Eli: “He's mean to me, like, 24/7! And do I ever get an apology? No.†Seth: “It's more like 12/7, actually.†23rd Seth, reading about Dante: “Really! Pope Bone Face was such a butt head.†Nicole: “Boniface?†Seth: “No. He should be Bone Face.†28th Nicole, looking at a chart describing graduation requirements for high school students in Washington state: “This is just amazing.†Eli: “What? The low standards?†NOVEMBER 2nd Seth: “Get that out of my sight or I'll start reading. I'm that kind of person! I see a good book, and I start reading.†5th Seth, looking up from his book: “I think this Don Quixote had some mental problems.†11th Eli: “Hey, Mom. If you could go back in time, would you change that one line about God creating the woman out of the rib?†Seth: “Of course she would! The question is, how would she change it?†16th Nicole, reading from the grammar book: “Pompeii was an ancient Italian city.†Seth: “Italian?! Italian?! It was ROMAN!†DECEMBER 1ST Seth, muttering at the computer, doing his history summary: “I might need a second page for Petrarch. He was one busy dude.†6th Eli: “So, Mom. What do you think of the electoral college system?†Nicole: (gasps) “Are you mad? Why would you ask me such a thing?†24th Seth: “Why do we celebrate Christmas in December when Jesus was actually born in March?†Nicole: “Tradition.†Seth: “They just stole it from Mithras worshippers. I mean, they’re just thieves, those villainous Christians.â€

First, I want to say how impressed I am with all you've done this year. I really mean that. Also, I just want to throw out one little idea. Not a math expert here at all, so take this with a grain of salt. If you decide to continue with her, I would stop touching the book altogether, and direct her in how to look up a problem or an example. So instead of looking it up for her, say, "Okay, check the table of contents. What page is that example on?" Then continue with only questions, instead of explanations. It may be that she simply does not know how to begin to engage -- she is probably in the habit of being a passive learner (or, in this case, just passive, not learning!). In my experience, you are the exception; very few of us have your kind of determination, and we need to be taught how to engage. She may also feel so defeated, so behind, that she does not even think it's truly possible to catch up. This is just a hard situation. I would not risk a friendship on something like this, personally. You could tell her you value the friendship too much to risk damaging it, and while you want to help her, it doesn't seem to be working, and perhaps she should find someone else to help. :grouphug:

Found it! This has been mentioned in several threads, and I think there is a companion workbook: http://www.greatsource.com/store/ProductCatalogController?cmd=Browse&subcmd=LoadDetail&ID=1003600000006199&division=G01&frontOrBack=F&sortEntriesBy=SEQ_NAME&sortProductsBy=SEQ_TITLE

Hmm. A long while ago I saw a text linked here that looked good, and had a student workbook, and I *thought* I bookmarked the site. Can't find it. There are lots of threads here about Civics and Government courses, so you may find something doing a search. If I find that text, I'll post it.

Hmm. What else did you get from them? I've always been curious about their materials, because they're nice and plain, no annoying cartoons, or too much color. Old fashioned and basic. But I have never really had time to look into it much.

Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. I'm so sorry. Give that little man a big hug for me. Debate sounds awesome. I pity the poor children who would come up against your fella. ;) You know, after you get over the shock, I think you will see a whole world opening up. I quite ballet after years of training for 12 - 20 hours a week, on top of school, and boy. I sure enjoyed a lot of things after that! I tried out for plays, I took an art class at the community center, I hiked.... Sometimes I was sad, and, honestly, sometimes I am still sad about losing that part of my life. But the fact that he's got the PX90 plan, whatever that is, is good, right?! That boy has a vision and gumption. Wait. I just realized. You'll be even more exhausted. When he was in the water, he couldn't actually talk your ear off, could he? Now there's no stopping him! Maybe you will need the outside class? Or weekly sanity trips north, to my house! :grouphug:

I agree, Jean! It is so rare now to find anyone who is gracious when they disagree with us. Sigh. Good for her, and good for the OP & hubby, sticking with their convictions and following their hearts in this.

I hope someone can help you out. My High School level workbook came with a print answer book, not a PDF. I know it's around here somewhere; I have to dig around for an item to send to JudoMom, so if I happen across the High School Vocab thingy, and you still haven't found someone to send you the PDF, then I can mail you a hard copy. Have you tried emailing AMSCO, the publisher? Or perhaps the folks at Hewitt Homeschool could help -- don't know if you bought yours through them, but they do sell those, so they might be willing to send you the PDF.

I only have the PDF for the College Bound Student, but if you need that, I could send it to you. Send me a PM and I'll email you.

Ding, ding! This is what I was trying to get at, but it's still early here, and I need more coffee. Do not engage!