I'm sorry but I can't find the lists. I *think* I mainly used copy & paste, I compared both the books used as well as the average weekly workload. I love to tweak, but I ran out of time. So I content myself with designing our group time while the kids do their separate AO years. (And that's still a lot - artist, composer, Shakespeare, drawing/painting, memory work, various drills/skills, paper sloyd & crafts, lots of literature, Bible, nature study, other living books I want to throw in... I'm content that I've fed both the 'get er done' side and the tweaking, creative side of myself.)

Have you considered studied dictation instead? SWR takes time, and it has a learning curve. How is her spelling now? Anyway, we moved from SWR to dictation (Spelling Wisdom) because of time. I am still toying with the idea of doing SWR together, 5 easier words (starting with list A) and 5 challenging words (starting from either L or M, older boys only) a day, and discussing them. And doing non-collecting reference pages on the whiteboard (pencil phobic kids). One time-saver idea I read on the Yahoo group is to dictate 5-8 new words everyday, and then test on 20-40 words. To save time (this isn't from the SWR group) you could use Spelling City to do the testing. Then you'd only need to do the new words and any reference pages. You could probably cut down to 15 minutes or so per day, after you learned the program.

Is it possible to use Zaccaro for, say 3rd-6th grade math? Because I love MEP, but I need to face facts - it's not getting done due to time constraints. I would have life math and Miquon before Zaccaro, and then move the kids into Singapore NEM. I also have the Kitchen Table Math books. Or, if Zaccaro is not enough, what would you add (besides fact drill)?

Perhaps your boxes, or some of them, could be questions pertaining to your goals? Sometimes even changing a word helps me focus on what -- maybe "explore" instead of just "read".

I think ads would be good - I assume they would be appropriate, of course.

I didn't mean to imply that Abigail Adams was inappropriate, only that it assumes a certain amount of maturity in the student. It would be a shame, I think, to edit anything out, especially for your daughter. I'm glad you've figured out what to do.

I don't really see the big hoopla about history. It is one subject. Saying that on the WTM board will probably get me shot at dawn. :D (Yes, I am aware that wouldn't be a popular statement on the AO forum either! Just my opinion.) I would rather read literature with my kids to discuss. We had a lovely time, discussions, games, story-tellings, drawings, etc about The Hobbit. A lot more fun than King II had a war with King III and King III killed him. His son, King IV .... How many of the books in the mid years have you read? I mean, the Abigail Adams bio, for example, mentions the desire for her husband before they married, her baby dying, being separated from her children/husband, her son dying as an alcoholic, etc. I wouldn't want to read that too young, personally. I think the age it is scheduled for is good. Really, why not just do SCM, combine the ancient years as someone suggested, and then just use AO to pull books from? I think starting with a curriculum that is combined, then beefing it up is going to be easier. Especially since AO kind of has a 6 year history rotation, not 4. So there are only 2 levels of books. Like Stripe said, it is entirely your choice. :) And it isn't easy. Many here have spent a lot of time trying to find the best course. I really do hope you can find the best path. And you may just have to try something! Perhaps you could use the summer and plan out a 6-8 week combined unit and see how that works for you? I went through this summer before last. I made lists to compare the Great Books Academy, Latin Centered Curriculum/Memoria Press, Ambleside Online, Milestones, SCM, and Higher Up & Further In. I agonized over it. It came down to my style - I prefer to tutor. I am horrible at group stuff. Now, I'm working on doing it still, because I think it is important, but I don't want to stake the base of their education on group things. What is your style? Your children's style? How much time do you have? I hope you can come to a decision that you have peace with.

I like Henle as well, or Linney's Latin class is free.

Sorry again. I took that sentence to mean advanced. And the following sentence that they have "intellectual skills". I'm coming more from an LCC (Latin Centered Curriculum) than a WTM viewpoint. I do Latin, not grammar and vocabulary and word roots. Not that the other way is wrong, but I like subjects that pull double/triple duty -- fewer things to track. (Which is a point in the Amongst Lovely Things post.) And Kern's second most recommended book seems to be Homer, which is Greek and shared by Western nations. I'm just not sure what you mean. I apologize. Do you mean we need to learn a modern language like Spanish (for example) so we can read books in Spanis? Even though that should be pretty easy (reading I mean) if one knew Latin. But I agree that in America (in general) we need to get learning/teaching some additional modern languages. I hope that my kids will all be able to read Spanish comfortably and to go on a mission trip to Mexico and get practical application by speaking it.

I disagree about only advanced children learning Latin. My struggling reader, who is probably dyslexic and has hit every bump on his road to reading, is learning Latin. He doesn't memorize as fast as his brother, but that's okay. He's doing just fine. Now, more importantly, what is a Hobbit breakfast? We LOVE the Hobbit.

Hmmm - thank you for the links. But I think all things are already integrated in Christ -- in him all things hold together (Col 1:17). So no sweat. Seriously - science/nature study/physical geography - the beauty of the world. Literature/poetry - the beauty of words, the actions of mankind. History, cultural geography - mankind, God's highest creation -- how did they behave? What end did they reach? How shall we act? Hmmm, let me try again. I'll cheat - Charlotte Mason had three areas of study. The Knowledge of God. The Knowledge of the Universe (the creation). The Knowledge of Man (who Christ came to save). So all integrated around Christ. Easy. Makes more sense than that Circe page. But I can see why everyone is confused. I'll stick with the podcasts and videos, they take smaller bites. That page is like trying to swallow the whole onion. I don't have an opinion on the Amongst Lovely Things posts. I do like the blog, and I try to keep the number of subjects down. But I just can't design a ground-up curriculum. I satisfy my tweaking & designing urges on small scale in morning time.

We don't do diagramming, we do Latin. Works for me anyway. I guess we diagram in Latin. LOL. Added some questions in red to your post. I guess I'm not understanding this thread at all, sorry. I'm not integrating around anything, really. That's why I'm at a place of rest. I don't have to match my history, geography and science. AO does match them up some (with history) - term 2 of year 6 is really fun, it's like we are living with the Greeks & Romans. But my other two boys aren't nearly as matched up. Again with my eldest, we are reviewing things with the Book of Marvels, and learning other things we haven't officially "studied" yet. We just watched a History documentary on Napoleon. When the picture of St. Basil's Church came up my eldest immediately recognized it (I know that place!) from the Book of Marvels. I didn't have to draw all the lines for him, and I don't think I should. Anyway, I don't think I'm hearing the same things others are. I do recommend Kern's talk on Five Paths to Great Writing.

Haha - I've been working on learning Latin for years, and I chose a video course (Visual Latin) because it saves me time, but more importantly, I like its goal (reading Latin) and that it meshes with my favorite program, Lingua Latina. Anyway, I bounce between kids. Audio books are just wonderful. I also have an independent 10yo who is a very good reader. I try to start with reading instruction for my 11yo and do a reading (or 2) with him. I broke his books into 4 readings a day, 2-3 with me, the others are audiobooks. I spend most of my time with him, due to his reading issues and also educating myself alongside him. My 7yo doesn't have a lot of work, 1-2 readings (some we do as a family because the older boys missed them) plus reading, math and copywork (which is low key, I'd rather have a couple well-formed words than a page of scribbles). I check in with my 10yo, he comes to narrate and do his math. Our schedule/routine is very much in flex right now. Oh, I don't generally get stressed out. I don't know why. Some days I just have 'one of those days' and I'll need to take a walk or snuggle with DH to calm down, but I'm just not an excitable person. It would take too much space to do all the kids, but I'll post my 10yo's schedule, which is almost plain-vanilla AO year 4. Our subjects are naturally spread out, because we have math, foreign languages, English and readings. We schedule 6 days a week because DH works 6 days a week. Oh, we do more Spanish (orally) as a group, but the older boys have written Spanish as well. DAILY Copywork (transitioning to commonplace book) ANKI (flashcards for all languages) MEP Math 4 Piano (Mrs. Stewart's Piano) Drawing (supposed to alternate Drawing Textbook with map drawing, but we haven't been consistent so I may move this to morning time) MONDAY Latin - Henle, Visual Latin Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet) Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons (trying this) History - George Washington's World, occassionally Child's History of the World or Trial & Triumph Literature - Kidnapped TUESDAY Dictation - Spelling Wisdom Latin - Henle, reader Spanish - The Fun Spanish Geography - Minn of the Mississippi History - George Washington's World Science - Story Book of Science WEDNESDAY Latin - Henle, Visual Latin Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet) Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons History - This Country of Ours Literature - Kidnapped, Age of Fable THURSDAY Dictation - Spelling Wisdom Latin - Visual Latin, reader Spanish - The Fun Spanish Geography - selected lessons from Home Geography by Long History - George Washington's World Science - Story Book of Science FRIDAY Latin - Henle, Visual Latin Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet) Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons History - Abigail Adams (LOVE this book) Literature - Kidnapped Science - Story of Inventions SATURDAY Dictation - Spelling Wisdom Latin - Henle, reader Spanish - The Fun Spanish Personal Finance - Money How to Make It, Spend It, and Keep Lots of It Science - Madam How and Lady Why Forgive any errors, I've been told if I want DH to make breakfast I have to go to the store now, so I can't proofread five times like I usually do. :D ETA: My 10yo is good with languages, while my 11yo has to work more, so they do Latin, Greek and Spanish together. They also do the Money book and Madam How together.

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way. :tongue_smilie: And I don't think you have to design your own system to teach the Circe way. Maybe I am wrong. I don't have the time to design a system, I don't even have summers with the lawn care biz. But I can pick the best thing for me and use it to seek wisdom & wonder. Planning from the ground up (no success though I've tried, I have too much doubt) is very different than taking a basically good plan and fitting it to your circumstance/child/family. I am getting the feeling some of the experienced posters want more specific questions (or searching what they've already said). I understand that, but searching this board is frustrating (google search is better). And at some point the old links stopped working, so if you find a post linking an older post the link is likely broken. I get frustrated as well on how to teach like 8 and others do. But I think I need to seek out that knowledge. I've thought of getting some of the great courses for myself, and exploring more podcasts and such. (I love podcasts.) Or do book discussions with other homeschool moms, and get additional perspectives. My dream is to do the Circe apprenticeship course. If things go well at all this summer I'm going to attend starting next year. I just don't think there are easy answers here. Pick one thing to do or not to do. Don't lose (or go and find asap) the sense of wonder. One of the coolest quotes I read, and can't remember where, is "Do the next best thing."

But part of the point is to STOP looking to the EXPERTS!!! They do not know YOUR child. So yes, you are the expert. Trust yourself!!!

I don't divide, really. I don't usually teach in the evening though (unless we missed a read-aloud). That's my relaxing time - I don't clean the house then either, KWIM. And I don't do any planning or work (house, homeschool, business) on Sundays. Actually, the no-plans-on-Sundays has been my best move all year. I love my Sundays - I can just be.

I think it's okay for you to ramble, LAmom. I want to (1) assure you that I am not very creative either. We read good books and narrate. I try to stick in Kern's "Should X have done Y?" questions if the time is right. I have them play outside a lot, I encourage them to draw and build. (2) I do NOT teach my kids together in general. They have their own years, I rotate between them. Now, I am working on doing some more things together because it is good for us to bond and talk; also, it is good for the kids to work as a team. But Circe doesn't mean you have to have everyone doing the same subject / time period. And it doesn't mean they need to be different. (3) It sounds like you want some more structure. I need that too. I'm just not the unschoolish sit-down-with-a-box-of-books type. I'm too scatter-brained. :P So I, personally, found structure in AO. Someone else just posted they used SCM. The question is, can you use the programs you are considering to inspire wonder, and to contemplate truth, goodness and beauty. Can you encourage love of learning while you do math (or grammar, or spelling)? Play with the puppies, whether those puppies are numbers, words or letters. http://www.circeinstitute.org/2012/04/inspiring-children Have a plan, but don't be afraid to deviate. Our planned nature study focus was Amphibians. But I'm switching, we just set up a bird feeder so we'll be doing birds. And I'm using what I already have on my shelf. You can start smaller, especially while you learn. Is something missing? Add it in. Is there something you are doing that is not the best? Drop it. Did you learn something or read something or do something beautiful or wonderous? Share it with your children.

Yes - it isn't about a book list. It is about you and your child. Are you pursueing the true, good and beautiful. Are you thinking and filling yourself with lovely things? I know it is hard - it literally turned my world upside down. And I didn't know what to do, just that I wanted something, but I didn't have it. I could feel it was missing. But keep looking. One of the books I am oh-so-slowly working through is "Leisure the Basis of Culture" and he NAILS our culture. We are all about ""doing"" something. Do this, do that, be "successful" in life. We need to do less and contemplate more. Education is about forming a person (including yourself!). What kind of people do you want to form? Starting there, I knew I wanted kids that cared. I wanted them to be able to communicate well (within their ability). I wanted them to hold onto that sense of wonder. And I wanted them to be self-starters -- to go and find out if they didn't know, or if something needed done to go and do it. Okay, I'll move to practical. First, I need to acknowledge my circumstances. * I am working to get some of my writing published. DH and I just bought a lawn care business, so I am doing the paperwork and such for that. Together these mean I just don't have time to do a lot of planning. I'd love to immerse myself in books and have everyone reading challenging yet appropriate books about the middle ages, European geography and chemistry (or whatever). But I don't have time. I have to accept that. * One of our goals is to spend the winters farther South, so we need to be portable. (So ebooks & PDFs help.) * My eldest is likely dyslexic, and needs audio books. (I love librivox.) * I can't just throw money at things. * I need support and people who are in similar boats to talk to. DH is not a talker, so he doesn't even help much (other than to say that's fine, go ahead and do/buy that - lol). Several of the above drew me to Ambleside Online. They have a forum now - I never liked email lists. There are a lot of ebooks and audio books. And I like CM's philosophy - I've been reading her original volumes and it resonates with me. So we jumped into AO late in the fall of 2012, partly just on faith. I knew the books were good overall so I trusted it. We had a good year. My then 10yo bloomed - he needed the literature, the stories! And he showed how good his comprehension was (despite the fact that he could hardly read at that time). For skills, we want to play with things not dissect them. And I don't have time to piecemeal. So we use MEP for math. Grammar is my achillles heel, but I'm thinking a sentence a day (perhaps from KISS) and the Serl books. We do copywork (or commonplace book) and dictation. I'm going to try CM's word-playing with my youngest son, he can blend and knows the sounds, so we'll do our phonics lessons from Treadwell's reader. For Spanish we are doing videos, my older boys are using The Fun Spanish (sentence based) and I have Speaking Spanish that I need to get going on. Latin I am using more than one book because I'm a Latin nut. We chose Visual Latin because it has a reading approach but back it up with Henle because mastery is also important (and makes fun easier). One thing I am (again) splurging on is Simply Charlotte Mason's organizer. You don't need to be CM to use it, btw. I love it because I don't get behind. If you miss a reading or a whole day, there is no chiding or shame when you have to manually bump things. It will be waiting for you on the next scheduled day. Now this means I'm only generally following AO's schedules, other than year 1 they are mostly regular or close to it. So I just have to match up a few stray history readings - not a big deal. Especially since the Circe thread and its fallout reminded me I don't have to make everything perfect. I don't know if that helps, but I have to go. I'd post a schedule, but with trying to get the lawn business going we don't have one yet. We are routine people anyway. Oh, I guess I'll note some things I change from AO. We do more memory work -- still the good, true & beautiful, not facts. I start Latin earlier and give it more time than many. We aren't following the Shakespeare or Plutarch rotations, we are doing our own. And the number one thing is I do not worry about the free reads. I think the historical fiction thing for many others is the free reads for me. They are fine, BUT I don't have kids that devour books. They'd rather be building forts all day. So I try to choose the best I can (a lot of good literature in those lists!), and enjoy them. Have you read Cindy's posts at the ordo-amoris blog - especially her morning time series? Here are some of my favorite posts, I come back to them again and again. http://crossingthebrandywine.com/2013/10/these-are-a-few-of-my-favorite-things/ I think Cindy's blog is linked first. Okay, I really must go!

No science? Not even nature study? Science doesn't have to be workbooky or even textbooky, but I think the method and the curiousity/observation factors are too good to miss. Anyway, I think it is a good start, keep in mind not all kids are going to "catch" good spelling / grammar from reading lots of books. Some will need direct instruction. Also assuming the kids are *doing* things in their free time - not sitting passively. So the non-school hours could be just as (or more) important as the official school hours.

Oh, I thought your ideas were wonderful too! (I hope this all makes sense, my kids are ""cleaning"" their room which means there is running & shrieking. :glare: ) I know that for me, sometimes I get hung up in the details, and I'll sit there and spin my wheels, doing nothing but trying to find the *perfect* solution. Actually I'm doing that with our memory work right now. :lol: Now a question - I'm trying to decide if I should read Caldecott's Beauty in the Word or Clark & Jain's The Liberal Arts Tradition first? Since I'm set for podcasts & videos for a while.

I wouldn't even worry about subjects, especially at those ages. Read a variety of good books (history, literature, science, nature, geography, fables), memorize things that are beautiful or needed (poems to your phone number), play with numbers (quantities, measuring, counting, comparing) and letters (aka reading), and do things (observe nature, cook, make messes & clean up, help others, put things in order, grow plants).

I really like the Circe podcasts (and Pudewa and others) and I think I'll start buying some. Can y'all list some of your favorites? I'm thinking about this one http://www.circeinstitute.org/store/2012-conference-downloads/creation-imitation-and-analogy-paths-learning and/or Cindy's talk on boys to start with. After I get through the videos on teaching from a state of rest. :)

Thank you! So that is kind-of like AO in volume. Hmmm, I need to figure out these discussions and such. I don't want to force the kids to do XYZ, but I do need to prepare better as a teacher. This is my goal as well. To both schedule time for teaching the skills and to have the supplies available for spontaneous creation on the children's part.

Is this per term or quarter or year or?? Sorry if I missed it, I've looked at MCT but never jumped in.

ARGH! I'm going to have to find a copy this summer. At least now I know to look for the older 10-volume set. One question - will these work as group read-alouds? Or as between term reading? I hesitate to add more reading to AO, and I don't want to drop that.