Revisiting phonics as a base for spelling

[Hobbes]

My 4th grader is struggling with spelling. She is working through R&S spelling 4 and she does alright within the program (gets 10-14 out of 16 correct, usually), but there is no retention outside of that work. Her writing is excellent and expressive, but her spelling is so bad that it's too often hard to figure out what she means. We are talking simple words like poot for put and tok for talk.

 

We also do weekly copywork and dictation, à la WWE.

 

I've noticed that part of her spelling issue seems to be that she doesn't seem to hear the sounds within the words. Today she spelled lines 'lindes' because she thought she heard a \d\ in there.

 

She is a fluent, engaged reader (currently reading the Anne of Green Gables series with ease) and I think that sometimes she reads so quickly that she doesn't look closely at the words. She learned to read from 100EZ lessons and then took off, so we didn't do anything else, and I'm thinking that her phonics understanding is weak.

 

I have AAS levels 1&2, which we have never used (got it used). Would using that help with a basic understanding of how to break apart words and solidify phonics? I'm wondering about taking a break from R&S to do AAS 1&2 and then returning to R&S, just to help her look at words differently, etc. Or would the R&S "Developing Better Reading" program be better for this?

 

Any experience with this?

Edited November 3, 2017 by indigoellen@gmail.com

[countrymum]

I am a good fast reader and learned easily, but my spelling was atrocious in school. My spelling improved dramatically when I took an Orton Gillingham class is college. Based on my experience, I would say take a break from R+S and do AAS. But do it at her pace. After the two levels you have you can revisit what to do next. If you decide to do more AAS, you may only need to teach her all the rules in a quickish way for it to stick. Then just finding used teachers manuals and a set of phonogram cards would work. I am using AAS, so I can try to answer any other questions...

[ElizabethB]

It may be a phonemic awareness problem.  Here is a free test to see:

 

https://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/

 

If it is, I'll hunt down the phonemic awareness thread.

[Hobbes]

I am a good fast reader and learned easily, but my spelling was atrocious in school. My spelling improved dramatically when I took an Orton Gillingham class is college. Based on my experience, I would say take a break from R+S and do AAS. But do it at her pace. After the two levels you have you can revisit what to do next. If you decide to do more AAS, you may only need to teach her all the rules in a quickish way for it to stick. Then just finding used teachers manuals and a set of phonogram cards would work. I am using AAS, so I can try to answer any other questions...

It's helpful to hear that experience, thank you! Makes me think AAS is the right track. I think she might find the tiles annoying so I might just use a whiteboard. I was all hesitant about switching but then realised I could do a break for AAS and the reassess.

 

Is it just going to be a lot of memorising rules or do they get a lot of opportunity to put them into practice?

 

ETA: I know there's a lot of practice in the program generally. I just mean, if I go through faster, will it hurt up the rules so we are mainly memorising?

Edited November 3, 2017 by indigoellen@gmail.com

[Hobbes]

It may be a phonemic awareness problem. Here is a free test to see:

 

https://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/

 

If it is, I'll hunt down the phonemic awareness thread.

Interesting! She passed the test fine but had to think for a second about the last few. Initially missed a couple at the end and then rethought and switched her answers. Thoughts?

[ElizabethB]

Interesting! She passed the test fine but had to think for a second about the last few. Initially missed a couple at the end and then rethought and switched her answers. Thoughts?

 

I probably needs a bit of work but not full blown expensive extensive remediation, there is a good cheap book I linked in my phonemic awareness thread that should do the trick:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/582944-phonemic-awareness-resources/?hl=%2Bphonemic+%2Bawareness

 

Along with, watch my blending video with her, look at the waveforms and explanation about the atomic nature of syllables on my dyslexia page:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/dyslexia.html

 

 

 

And, watch Don Potter's phonovisual video with her and work on the sounds a bit while looking at how they are made 

 

The vowel and consonant chart similar to the Phonovisual chart is linked from my Syllables page, link 3 in the student folder:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

How they are made, on computer if you have the right version of flash or get the app, sounds of speech:

 

http://soundsofspeech.uiowa.edu/index.html#english

 

All About Spelling is good for working with the sounds.  If you want a quick overview of the spelling rules you could go through my syllables program first, but do the phonemic awareness activities and work on sounds before you do anything else, it is like a pre-level that needs to be strong before the other will make sense.

[ElizabethB]

I would also check her speed and accuracy of reading nonsense words, on the bottom of my syllables page, here is a direct link:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

Edited November 3, 2017 by ElizabethB

[countrymum]

I would practice with the words and phrases for each step of AAS until she can spell them correctly. So, by fast I mean like 2 or 3 steps a week. So it has plenty of practice. You review the rules even after you finish the step they are in do you dont forget them. AAS has great help you can call or email and they are glad to answer and help.

The first part of level 1 may be very easy but it gets harder around the middle of level 1. With my 6 year old son we do about a step a week or every other week but still have most rule cards in our review section. You may want to start out doing it totally as written then drop and add for your child. Tell your child that at first you are just learning the program and it will be easy.

You can easily do it without the the tiles. I don't use them much. My son doesn't mind writing and doesn't love the tiles. Just use a white board or even paper;)

[Ellie]

My 4th grader is struggling with spelling. She is working through R&S spelling 4 and she does alright within the program (gets 10-14 out of 16 correct, usually), but there is no retention outside of that work. Her writing is excellent and expressive, but her spelling is so bad that it's too often hard to figure out what she means. We are talking simple words like poot for put and tok for talk.

 

We also do weekly copywork and dictation, à la WWE.

 

I've noticed that part of her spelling issue seems to be that she doesn't seem to hear the sounds within the words. Today she spelled lines 'lindes' because she thought she heard a \d\ in there.

 

She is a fluent, engaged reader (currently reading the Anne of Green Gables series with ease) and I think that sometimes she reads so quickly that she doesn't look closely at the words. She learned to read from 100EZ lessons and then took off, so we didn't do anything else, and I'm thinking that her phonics understanding is weak.

 

I have AAS levels 1&2, which we have never used (got it used). Would using that help with a basic understanding of how to break apart words and solidify phonics? I'm wondering about taking a break from R&S to do AAS 1&2 and then returning to R&S, just to help her look at words differently, etc. Or would the R&S "Developing Better Reading" program be better for this?

 

Any experience with this?

 

Improving her phonics knowledge won't necessarily improve her spelling knowledge, so, no using R&S's Developing Better Reading" will not necessarily improve her spelling.

 

My go-to is Spalding. It covers all the bases: teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (yes, it is good for children who already read), penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, simple writing. You only need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards and you're good to go.

 

AAS would not "solidify phonics." She may or may not need more phonics. She needs spelling, so AAS would help. But I prefer Spalding. :-)

[Hobbes]

Improving her phonics knowledge won't necessarily improve her spelling knowledge, so, no using R&S's Developing Better Reading" will not necessarily improve her spelling.

 

My go-to is Spalding. It covers all the bases: teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (yes, it is good for children who already read), penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, simple writing. You only need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards and you're good to go.

 

AAS would not "solidify phonics." She may or may not need more phonics. She needs spelling, so AAS would help. But I prefer Spalding. :-)

I know that spelling and phonics are not all the same thing. But she struggles with identifying the sounds in words, which is a phonics skill and a precursor to identifying sounds for spelling. If you don't understand phonics, you'll have a hard time spelling the correct sounds. And there is a fair amount of phonics in a program like AAS, especially at the beginning. All the sounds of the alphabet letters? OPGTR and AAS start the same way, with this. Blending is addressed in both - spelling starts to pull it back apart. Etc. While spelling and phonics differ, lots of spelling (especially early on) is phonics backwards.

 

I have a sense that she needs some strengthening on the phonics side of things as well as on the spelling side and I think it's possible to strengthen the two together, to some extent, especially if I am conscious of that need as we work through lessons.

 

I have looked at Spalding, but that's not the way j want to go.

[Hobbes]

I probably needs a bit of work but not full blown expensive extensive remediation, there is a good cheap book I linked in my phonemic awareness thread that should do the trick:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/582944-phonemic-awareness-resources/?hl=%2Bphonemic+%2Bawareness

 

Along with, watch my blending video with her, look at the waveforms and explanation about the atomic nature of syllables on my dyslexia page:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/dyslexia.html

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4KTyqpg5o&t=137s

 

And, watch Don Potter's phonovisual video with her and work on the sounds a bit while looking at how they are made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEy9D4sBEok&index=3&list=PLJLxBWdK_5l3aBN-qowg2u8BdGYM64pTi

 

The vowel and consonant chart similar to the Phonovisual chart is linked from my Syllables page, link 3 in the student folder:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

How they are made, on computer if you have the right version of flash or get the app, sounds of speech:

 

http://soundsofspeech.uiowa.edu/index.html#english

 

All About Spelling is good for working with the sounds. If you want a quick overview of the spelling rules you could go through my syllables program first, but do the phonemic awareness activities and work on sounds before you do anything else, it is like a pre-level that needs to be strong before the other will make sense.

Thank you for all of this! It all looks quite helpful.

[Hobbes]

I would practice with the words and phrases for each step of AAS until she can spell them correctly. So, by fast I mean like 2 or 3 steps a week. So it has plenty of practice. You review the rules even after you finish the step they are in do you dont forget them. AAS has great help you can call or email and they are glad to answer and help.

The first part of level 1 may be very easy but it gets harder around the middle of level 1. With my 6 year old son we do about a step a week or every other week but still have most rule cards in our review section. You may want to start out doing it totally as written then drop and add for your child. Tell your child that at first you are just learning the program and it will be easy.

You can easily do it without the the tiles. I don't use them much. My son doesn't mind writing and doesn't love the tiles. Just use a white board or even paper;)

This is helpful, thank you! I looked through level 1 this afternoon and I see what you mean about the speed and difficulty. By the middle of the level, it hits words she currently misspells. I'm hoping this will target some of her gaps!

[MerryAtHope]

It's helpful to hear that experience, thank you! Makes me think AAS is the right track. I think she might find the tiles annoying so I might just use a whiteboard. I was all hesitant about switching but then realised I could do a break for AAS and the reassess.

 

Is it just going to be a lot of memorising rules or do they get a lot of opportunity to put them into practice?

 

ETA: I know there's a lot of practice in the program generally. I just mean, if I go through faster, will it hurt up the rules so we are mainly memorising?

 

You want to find the right pace--so work quickly through words she has memorized and just needs to learn the skills, but spend more time and review when she needs more practice. You might want to check out:

 

Segmenting - helping her learn to hear and then represent every sound in a word.

Fast Track for Older Students - ideas on how to fast track

Auditory Processing - I suggest this one because of things like hearing a /d/ sound in "lines." The tips in this article can really help with strategies for helping her.

[Hobbes]

You want to find the right pace--so work quickly through words she has memorized and just needs to learn the skills, but spend more time and review when she needs more practice. You might want to check out:

 

Segmenting - helping her learn to hear and then represent every sound in a word.

Fast Track for Older Students - ideas on how to fast track

Auditory Processing - I suggest this one because of things like hearing a /d/ sound in "lines." The tips in this article can really help with strategies for helping her.

Those articles are great, thank you. I can see a few things that would probably help.

[goldenecho]

All About Spelling 1 does have exercises to help children recognize the different sounds in words.  They have children start by saying a word, hearing the sound in it, and pulling down manipulative as they say each sound.  It's simple but it helps.

 

I would also suggest if there's any phonics blends or sounds that you realize, while working with AAS, that your child also has trouble reading, I would go to www.progressivephonics.com, which has free phonics based readers that each start with short instructions (at least at the intermediate level, where we started with that), and I would find the reader that corresponds with whatever she's having trouble with and practice with that.

 

 

 

I know that spelling and phonics are not all the same thing. But she struggles with identifying the sounds in words, which is a phonics skill and a precursor to identifying sounds for spelling. If you don't understand phonics, you'll have a hard time spelling the correct sounds. And there is a fair amount of phonics in a program like AAS, especially at the beginning. All the sounds of the alphabet letters? OPGTR and AAS start the same way, with this. Blending is addressed in both - spelling starts to pull it back apart. Etc. While spelling and phonics differ, lots of spelling (especially early on) is phonics backwards.

I have a sense that she needs some strengthening on the phonics side of things as well as on the spelling side and I think it's possible to strengthen the two together, to some extent, especially if I am conscious of that need as we work through lessons.

I have looked at Spalding, but that's not the way j want to go.

 

[Hobbes]

All About Spelling 1 does have exercises to help children recognize the different sounds in words. They have children start by saying a word, hearing the sound in it, and pulling down manipulative as they say each sound. It's simple but it helps.

 

I would also suggest if there's any phonics blends or sounds that you realize, while working with AAS, that your child also has trouble reading, I would go to www.progressivephonics.com, which has free phonics based readers that each start with short instructions (at least at the intermediate level, where we started with that), and I would find the reader that corresponds with whatever she's having trouble with and practice with that.

That's a good idea, to just follow up with some targeted phonics. I've never looked at that site, will check out. Thanks!

[marylandhsmom]

My 10 yr old daughter has very similar issues to yours and was diagnosed as a stealth dyslexic this summer.  She reads fine -- but she can't hear each phonogram, and she has very poor phonemic awareness even though she's at a 6th grade reading level.  Her visual memory was so strong that she compensated for her lack of phonemic awareness by memorizing her way through spelling and reading.  A lot of kids do that to compensate and what the parent doesn't realize is their child actually has dyslexia, that isn't presenting typically.  We are remediating with an online dyslexia program and also Spalding - spell to write and read.  

[homemommy83]

I am going to chime in that copywork of patterns has helped at this house.  We use Natural Speller for the purpose of exposing our children to patterns.  I quiz them until I find a pattern that they haven't mastered and then they do copywork of those words for a few days, at a later date when I go through list again they will be requizzed on those words and they get a star if they pass and a fresh copywork list if they don't-lol.   I do this for a couple months each year after we finish Rod and Staff Spelling for the year, I appreciate different approaches to the same subject and it adds variety for them as well.

[Hobbes]

I am going to chime in that copywork of patterns has helped at this house. We use Natural Speller for the purpose of exposing our children to patterns. I quiz them until I find a pattern that they haven't mastered and then they do copywork of those words for a few days, at a later date when I go through list again they will be requizzed on those words and they get a star if they pass and a fresh copywork list if they don't-lol. I do this for a couple months each year after we finish Rod and Staff Spelling for the year, I appreciate different approaches to the same subject and it adds variety for them as well.

Smart idea! I might work this in. We've been doing AAS for two weeks and I can see it helping with her spelling process, but this could be another good angle. Thanks!