Any Recommended Books or Resources For People Working With Young (K-1st Grade) Students With Autism?

[Spy Car]

I'm looking for things that would help a person with limited experience with autism (and most of that being around highly functioning children who were "labeled" with Aspergers) that would help them understand, teach, and reach young students with more profound challenges.

 

I'd appreciate any suggestions. They are for a person working in a classroom setting with other people's children, if that matters.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Bill 

[Guest]

These three immediately came to mind after reading your request:

 

1) The Way I See it by Temple Grandin

2) 1001 Great Ideas for Teaching & Raising Children With Autism or Asperger's by Ellen Notbohn/ Veronica Zysk

3) Just Give Him the Whale!: 20 Ways to Use Fascinations, Areas of Expertise, and Strengths to Support Students with Autism by Paula Kluth

[Spy Car]

These three immediately came to mind after reading your request:

 

1) The Way I See it by Temple Grandin

2) 1001 Great Ideas for Teaching & Raising Children With Autism or Asperger's by Ellen Notbohn/ Veronica Zysk

3) Just Give Him the Whale!: 20 Ways to Use Fascinations, Areas of Expertise, and Strengths to Support Students with Autism by Paula Kluth

 

I deeply appreciate it. All three are on order from the library system.

 

Bill

[Guest]

No problem :) I'll post again if I think of any others that might be useful. Hope you get more replies.

[Spy Car]

No problem :) I'll post again if I think of any others that might be useful. Hope you get more replies.

 

These look like a perfect start. Can't thank you enough!

 

Bill

[MyLittleBears]

I think my favorite book on the subject is Autism, Explaining the Enigma by Uta Frith.  It gives a good history as well but it does not offer suggestions. It's just an excellent explanation of the condition, which is help in an of itself I guess. 

[Crimson Wife]

Relationship Development Intervention for Young Children by Steven Gutstein.

[Lecka]

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Start-Your-Child-Autism/dp/160918470X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1440876618&sr=8-2&keywords=early+start+denver+model

 

The Verbal Behavior Approach is my top favorite.

 

 

​

[PeterPan]

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com This lady co-authored a book that I haven't read, but she puts TONS of great stuff on her blog.  I just invested in a bunch of her visual schedules and other materials on Teachers Pay Teachers, and I finally have things that CONNECT with my ds, that make sense for him.  If you want practical, this lady is where it's at.  It's not so much teaching you ABA but more like how can I actually work with the kid for an hour and let him know the plan and let him have choices and deal with breaks and a need to communicate and...

 

And btw, it's not "labeled" aspergers.  It's all autism, then support levels.  And you can have the subtype of aspergers but have different support levels.  It's not that one person's autism is more valid than another's and some subtypes are pseudo.  Yes there are some labels that are essentially autism - 1 (NVLD, SPD, etc.), but once it's autism, it's autism.  It's also not accurate to say ASD level 1 is not complex.  I've taken my ds to 3 psychs.  He's labeled ASD level 1 and ALL the psychs said he's EXTREMELY complex with EXTREME challenges.  ASD levels denote level of support needed, not complexity.  My ds is complex because of the EXTREME spread between his abilities and disabilities.

 

I'm not sure who you're passing this on to (relative, friend, yourself, whatever), but I think thinking it through in terms of support is really a good thought process.  Lecka's ds, for instance, has an aide.  I've really thought through that, like in xyz setting (Sunday School, gymnastics, etc.), am I creating the *support* structure he needs to do well.  Reality is, an untrained teacher can't necessarily do everything.  However if this is an occasional situation, not a career, not something where you're bringing in an ABA-trained aide or providing ABA training to the teacher, then providing *support* through a person who *is* connected to the dc who *can* support his needs (for communication, for knowing the plan, for dealing with sensory problems and interpersonal problems, etc.), then you're golden.  There are some situations at church where, when he gets to those, that's what I'll want.  The person teaching those Sunday School classes isn't qualified to handle him.  I'm being really polite, but I'm just saying that person is never GOING to be able to handle him.  So in that setting, an aide, not even necessarily trained but just someone who has enough experience with him to have bonded and to be able to bridge that gap, can be an immense help.  And I think when the teacher says "you know, I think his ASD level requires some support in this situation" that's a good thing.  As the parent, I'd rather you provide the support (and have it be sort of invisible, like what they do at Lecka's school), than not to provide it and to have problems.

[KSinNS]

A blog called Snagglebox has some super helpful articles and ebooks written for parents, friends, and educators. Short and practical.

[Guest]

Bill, if this is an inclusive classroom situation (for some reason I assumed this to be the case from your original post, not sure why) here's another one from Paula Kluth that might be useful . This is not just for spectrum kids and it's a K-12 resource.

 

From Tutor Scripts to Talking Sticks

http://www.amazon.com/From-Tutor-Scripts-Talking-Sticks/dp/1598570803/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1D25VX97891G4F0Z51DB&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL320_SR248%2C320_

 

Grandin's "The Way I See it" (the first one I recommended) is very straightforward and covers a lot of ground. From all the resources that I have bought to learn from and to use with my boys (and I have bought many) it has been the most useful. It is not a, do this then that, type of book. It has some very general guidance and tips. I have realized its value over time as I have been better able to pinpoint what will work for each of my boys and what will most likely not. I can now also catch a lot sooner when an approach I am following is not suitable and why. It has become my Autism bible and I refer to it whenever I need to, more than any other book on my shelves and on Kindle.

[Spy Car]

Bill, if this is an inclusive classroom situation (for some reason I assumed this to be the case from your original post, not sure why) here's another one from Paula Kluth that might be useful . This is not just for spectrum kids and it's a K-12 resource.

 

From Tutor Scripts to Talking Sticks

http://www.amazon.com/From-Tutor-Scripts-Talking-Sticks/dp/1598570803/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1D25VX97891G4F0Z51DB&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL320_SR248%2C320_

 

Grandin's "The Way I See it" (the first one I recommended) is very straightforward and covers a lot of ground. From all the resources that I have bought to learn from and to use with my boys (and I have bought many) it has been the most useful. It is not a, do this then that, type of book. It has some very general guidance and tips. I have realized its value over time as I have been better able to pinpoint what will work for each of my boys and what will most likely not. I can now also catch a lot sooner when an approach I am following is not suitable and why. It has become my Autism bible and I refer to it whenever I need to, more than any other book on my shelves and on Kindle.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. In the current assignment the person is working in a non-inclusive classroom (at a general population elementary school) with a high ratio of adults to students. This person knows many children "on the spectrum" through friendships and school relationships, but lacks experience with these degrees of challenges.

 

This person has a big heart and a willingness to do homework after a long day if she can learn to better help and reach these young people.

 

I very much appreciate the suggestions for you and the others. They are just the sort of thing I hoped to find.

 

The first batch of books should be ready for pick up soon. I'm especially intrigued by the Just Give Them The Whale book (on a practical level) and loved the Temple Grandin movie.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com This lady co-authored a book that I haven't read, but she puts TONS of great stuff on her blog. I just invested in a bunch of her visual schedules and other materials on Teachers Pay Teachers, and I finally have things that CONNECT with my ds, that make sense for him. If you want practical, this lady is where it's at. It's not so much teaching you ABA but more like how can I actually work with the kid for an hour and let him know the plan and let him have choices and deal with breaks and a need to communicate and...

 

And btw, it's not "labeled" aspergers. It's all autism, then support levels. And you can have the subtype of aspergers but have different support levels. It's not that one person's autism is more valid than another's and some subtypes are pseudo. Yes there are some labels that are essentially autism - 1 (NVLD, SPD, etc.), but once it's autism, it's autism. It's also not accurate to say ASD level 1 is not complex. I've taken my ds to 3 psychs. He's labeled ASD level 1 and ALL the psychs said he's EXTREMELY complex with EXTREME challenges. ASD levels denote level of support needed, not complexity. My ds is complex because of the EXTREME spread between his abilities and disabilities.

 

I'm not sure who you're passing this on to (relative, friend, yourself, whatever), but I think thinking it through in terms of support is really a good thought process. Lecka's ds, for instance, has an aide. I've really thought through that, like in xyz setting (Sunday School, gymnastics, etc.), am I creating the *support* structure he needs to do well. Reality is, an untrained teacher can't necessarily do everything. However if this is an occasional situation, not a career, not something where you're bringing in an ABA-trained aide or providing ABA training to the teacher, then providing *support* through a person who *is* connected to the dc who *can* support his needs (for communication, for knowing the plan, for dealing with sensory problems and interpersonal problems, etc.), then you're golden. There are some situations at church where, when he gets to those, that's what I'll want. The person teaching those Sunday School classes isn't qualified to handle him. I'm being really polite, but I'm just saying that person is never GOING to be able to handle him. So in that setting, an aide, not even necessarily trained but just someone who has enough experience with him to have bonded and to be able to bridge that gap, can be an immense help. And I think when the teacher says "you know, I think his ASD level requires some support in this situation" that's a good thing. As the parent, I'd rather you provide the support (and have it be sort of invisible, like what they do at Lecka's school), than not to provide it and to have problems.

Elizabeth, sorry for any clumbsiness on my part. I was attempting to differentiate between the sort of students who (once) were identified as having Aspergers (I realize the official use of the term has passed) and those with more profound forms of autism. In the latter case, students who—as a result of their special needs—are not integrated into general classrooms, as opposed to students who are capable of being in a regular classroom setting but benefit from support.

 

Please forgive my lack of expertise with terms of differentiation. I'm aware of how sensitive words can be, and the last thing I wish to do is inadvertently cause offense.

 

Bill

[Lecka]

I have seen two people I think are really good with kids, approach kids they haven't met before this way:  walk up to their side or off-center (not right in their face) with a cheerful or calm facial expression (one of each for two people), kneel or crouch, and say their own name.  Then wait a few moments to see how the child responds.  Then comment on something about the child or something they know about the child.

 

I am more likely to go right up to somebody, but a little slow, and say hi, and say something I think is interesting "I saw you on the playground" or I say who I am "I am so-and-so-'s mom" (and they know my son).  Noticing something about their shirt or backpack that might show their interests is something I do, too.

[Guest]

Sorry I wasn't more clear. In the current assignment the person is working in a non-inclusive classroom (at a general population elementary school) with a high ratio of adults to students. This person knows many children "on the spectrum" through friendships and school relationships, but lacks experience with these degrees of challenges.

 

This person has a big heart and a willingness to do homework after a long day if she can learn to better help and reach these young people.

 

I very much appreciate the suggestions for you and the others. They are just the sort of thing I hoped to find.

 

The first batch of books should be ready for pick up soon. I'm especially intrigued by the Just Give Them The Whale book (on a practical level) and loved the Temple Grandin movie.

 

Bill

Bill, please don't feel like you may have offended, even inadvertently. You have not. You also don't need to explain any more than you are comfortable with but thank you for the further details. I think some of the further explanations offered were more an fyi in case you didn't know.

 

It's nice to hear about people wanting to help! These are the people that can help us bridge the gap, helping others understand our kids, without the emotional involvement that is often the case when we are trying to explain/ defend our kids.

 

The Whale book is a pretty good resource for a classroom setting. Hope it was a bit bigger, but it's a step in the right direction. I think the focus on the kids fascinations and using them to reach and teach these kids started from Temple Grandin and people like her that have the inside story. She mentions it in most if not all her books. It was where I read about it first but there wasn't any practical advice on how to do that. I had been to a certain degree as my kids both have had strong fascinations from a very young age and I have always encouraged them and bring these fascinations into our schooling in various ways to explain concepts. Reading about it just made me more aware and helped me see I was on the right track so I do that even more so now, to the best of my ability.

 

This is an interesting book if the lady you are talking about gets around to it:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Perspectives-Autism-Asperger-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00336FQSE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441062122&sr=8-1&keywords=theory+of+mind+and+the+bogdashina

 

It starts with the DSM and moves on to the perspective of those on the spectrum, then the parents, and doctors. I am still in the process of reading it since I have another 4 books going at the same time, very little time, and I combine most of them with further research of my own.

 

Another good thing about Grandin's book is that she discusses some of the approaches currently used with young kids on the spectrum and the lady you are talking about could do further research if she decides to continue with this assignment and maybe decide which approach she may choose to follow. I don't know the exact situation nor do I expect you to explain futher ;) Just throwing some suggestions and she can decide what fits how she is looking to go with this.

[texasmama]

This is a blog by two young adult men with ASD (both diagnosed with Aspergers).  They have youtube videos, information on their blog, free seminars, paid seminars...all sorts of things.  I really appreciate their take on ASD and they have helped me understand my son a great deal.

 

http://www.aspergerexperts.com/

[Spy Car]

I have seen two people I think are really good with kids, approach kids they haven't met before this way:  walk up to their side or off-center (not right in their face) with a cheerful or calm facial expression (one of each for two people), kneel or crouch, and say their own name.  Then wait a few moments to see how the child responds.  Then comment on something about the child or something they know about the child.

 

I am more likely to go right up to somebody, but a little slow, and say hi, and say something I think is interesting "I saw you on the playground" or I say who I am "I am so-and-so-'s mom" (and they know my son).  Noticing something about their shirt or backpack that might show their interests is something I do, too.

 

Interesting. Rather than being evasive, I'm asking for resources on my wife's behalf. She has an amazing gift when it comes to connecting with children. In recent years she's worked in the schools as an interterm librarian (where she knew what almost every child in the school was reading) and as a classroom aid. She's beloved by parents and kids.

 

This year she's working as a special ed aid. The year began with her being a "shadow" to a sweet little girl in an integrated classroom. But a returning aid (seniority rules) bumped her to another class. This one is not an integrated class. The issues in this small special ed class can include opposition, throwing pencils and other objects, and kids running for it. She has had no specialized training in helping autistic students. That is a source of discontentment for her. She really wants to be as effective, kind, and patient as possible. And hopes to gain insights into how best to reach the children she's working with.

 

This is a new school this year. They already love her, and want her to stay. She drew the tough assignment this year (from what I gather) but wants to make the best of it.

 

She's on her way to the library now to pick up the first batch of books.

 

Bill

[Guest]

I don't have much time right now but just wanted to say that in this case I would advise her to ask for access to the kids' files. She needs to know what other labels each child has and what information the school has about the child from the parents. She may have already done so but just putting it out there as a suggestion. Many spectrum kids have SPD (Sensory Processing Disorder). This is not in the DSM as a separate label, which is why the parents input is important. I assume by the age group that this is their first school experience so behaviors like that will be common and will be caused by various reasons, different for each child. Temple Grandin explains how a simple thing to most like florescent lights can affect these kids. Another is Auditory Processing Disorder where in its worst form can lead to kids hearing scrambled sounds when spoken to, sometimes just consonants. I'll try to come back a bit later but now I strongly recommend that she read "The Way I See it" first.

[Lecka]

My little son used to be a "runner."  I hate saying "a runner" but "bolting" does not have the same ring, and it is something important to communicate about since it is a safety issue.  

 

So, I am really big into "functions of behavior."  

 

There is, iirc, a bit about this concept in both the books I linked earlier.  

 

Now, this concept can be done in ways that I think are on the abhorrent side.  But when they are done well -- they can be so helpful.

 

I can link quite a few books.  

 

But the short version is -- for "functions of behavior," you have a child who probably cannot, verbally, easily, express his or her needs.  So they express their needs through their behavior.  The needs are important, and meeting them is important, but so is having them communicate in a more acceptable way.  The two things are not mutually exclusive.  

 

Anyway -- you would say that the behaviors shown (throwing, running) are serving some kind of "function."  The functions are, basically, escape, attention, and access, plus "the kid just likes to do it."  

 

But the only way to figure out which function it is, is to look at ABCs, which are "antecedent, behavior, consequence," and try to see what connection there is between the antecedent and the behavior, or else, the behavior and the consequence.  

 

For my son -- he was most prone to escape behaviors, so I know the most about them.  But I have had a few times where I mis-identified the function, and it was really attention.  Well, the way that is recommended to respond, is opposite, so I was doing the exact wrong thing at those times.  But it is okay, everybody makes mistakes.  

 

He also had, according to the behavior therapist, a "mixed function" with his bolting behavior.  It could be for attention or escape.  At a certain point -- it was mostly just b/c he did not have a way to say "hey, mom, I'm ready to leave."  He did not know how to ask, he would just do things like go and get in the mini-van while we were at the park.  So prompting him/teaching him how to say he was ready to go, became pretty important there.  But there was a lot to it.  Happily he has not had a major incident since last Christmas!  And even it was not so bad, plus being in a place he had never been before.  

 

But anyway -- I think the Verbal Behavior Approach has a good chapter on this, and the book "An Early Start for Your Child with Autism" has a chapter about the ABCs of behavior iirc (where ABC stands for antecedent, behavior, consequence).  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Stop-That-Seemingly-Senseless-Behavior/dp/1890627763/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=12GNX66MQAFA5B5314GP&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR95%2C160_ There is also this book and its companion -- I think the "topics in autism" books are pretty good.  They are both about looking at the functions of behavior.

 

It is not that this is the end-all be-all ------ but it has been so helpful for me!  It has been so, so helpful!  

 

For kids who may be having more anxiety, too, http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Point-Scale-Significantly-Understanding/dp/1937473074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441074788&sr=8-1&keywords=the+incredible+5-point+scale this is something used in my district and people like it.  It is not something that my son has ever used, he is on the young side, the lower language level side, and also he does not seem like he is anxious.  I have been told he may be more anxious as he gains more social awareness, that this is a common thing, and may happen for him, to keep my eye out as he gets older.  But at this point -- I am familiar with it from hearing about it.  

 

It is also really important to look for better ways for kids to be able to communicate their needs.  This can take many forms and there may be one that is preferred by the school or by the speech therapist.  The 3 main ones are: PECS, sign language, and iPads.  (I think this is right.)  They each have their proponents.  

 

Of these I am familiar with PECS.  It is like -- there is something called Boardmaker that makes these little picture icons, and then kids learn the icons, and start to be able to see them.  My son has used them with a visual schedule, which was hard for him to learn (as he spent some time throwing his icons on the ground!), but has turned out to be pretty helpful.  It helps him to know what his expectations are and it helps a lot with transitions.  He is basically pretty good with verbally being told about transitions, now, but still, the visual is good.  This is something that can reduce behaviors, too.  

 

You can also just take pictures, and have pictures.  Or have objects.  It does not have to be Boardmaker icons.  But having things that are visual can make it possible for a child to communicate in a lot of times when they would not be able to communicate verbally.  

 

There are a lot of good practices.  

 

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/category/behavior-support-roundup-post/ I also agree with OhElizabeth -- I really like this "autism classroom resources" blog/facebook page.  This is the link to "topics: behavior."  The author is a BCBA (a behavior specialist) and she has got solid stuff imo.  She has got stuff that I have seen be effective with my son.  http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/what-are-replacement-behaviors-and-wha/  This is a post by her about "replacement behaviors."  This is -- teaching a new, better skill to take the place of a behavior that was not appropriate (but was serving to meet a need).  It can be a little hard or at least detailed, but I have seen it work, and then it is so nice.  

 

My son is one where ABA stuff is just a good fit for him.  It is not necessarily a good fit for everybody, and I know for anxiety there are different interventions.  But for my son, it is good stuff.  He used to be very delayed in his communication and so he had to do things the best way he knew how, which was basically just having a behavior that was not a good behavior, and then he has learned a lot of communication skills to meet his needs.

 

Just for an example -- about 2 years ago now, we had a problem with him hugging kids too tight, and also with kind-of being too rough.  He was observed by a behavior therapist, and she said he was trying to engage with the kids, but he didn't have good skills to engage in a more appropriate way.  So -- he needed to be taught those skills.  And it worked out well!  I was pretty surprised as *I* didn't pick up, at all, that he was trying to engage with kids.  I didn't know *what* he was thinking, at all.  So behavior that seems like it is bad (even aggressive) might be able to be turned around this way, just by teaching a better way to meet the same need.  At least, it has worked really well for my son.  

 

Oh, also, in one of the books I linked, it has a chapter about "top 10 strategies to reduce problem behaviors."  One of the strategies is to teach kids how to ask for a break.  This has been really helpful for my son, too, even though it has been a long process to teach him how this works, and give him chances to "ask" instead of just noticing he is beginning to need a break "for him" (so that he is just given breaks without learning to tell he needs them, b/c adults around him know his cues whether he knows them or not) etc. etc.  He is not independent on this yet, but he knows what a "break card" is, and that is really good.  

 

"First, then" was really important for him like this in the past, now he has got a total understanding of the "first, then" concept with no visuals needed -- the same as my other kids.  But it took a lot of teaching at first, too, so I am confident he will make the same progress with asking for a break.  

 

But it is one where, before I read this chapter, I had NO idea why it was important to be able to request a break.  I had heard it mentioned, but I thought "why bother" instead of "top 10 strategy."  

 

Edit:  Also, my son is not so much of a sensory kid, he is more of a language kid and a behavior kid.  It can really depend -- for kids who are much more impacted by sensory needs, that is very important, too.  My son benefits from sensory strategies, too.  

 

Edit:  Oh, I do like all the Temple Grandin books, too.  I read them first, and the Ellen Notbohm (spelling?) books about "things to know about children with autism."  I agree -- they are great books and very helpful!  I agree they are a good place to start.  

 

The stuff I am mentioning is a little more specialized and maybe hit-or-miss for some kids -- but it is what was so effective and helpful with my son.  In my personal life -- I know some other people who have had good results, and then some people where it has not been so helpful, but more sensory-based interventions have been very effective.  So I think it just depends.  But I do love it in my heart.  

[Lecka]

Oh, and my son is basically a sweet little boy in an inclusive setting, with aide support, now (he is almost 7).  When he was in pre-school though he had major behavior issues.  But in my area, a lot of kids do not get behavior intervention until they start Kindergarten, b/c we are in an underserved area.  We got services for my son starting as he was turning 4, but only b/c my husband has military insurance.  So there are kids who make the same progress as my son has made, starting in Kindergarten.

 

I have seen some kids make really good progress.  I have seen some kids make less progress, BUT have good improvement in their behavior and ability to do things in the community.  I think there is a lot of reason to be hopeful.  

[Guest]

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Edited August 19, 2017 by Guest

[Spy Car]

I don't have much time right now but just wanted to say that in this case I would advise her to ask for access to the kids' files. She needs to know what other labels each child has and what information the school has about the child from the parents. She may have already done so but just putting it out there as a suggestion. Many spectrum kids have SPD (Sensory Processing Disorder). This is not in the DSM as a separate label, which is why the parents input is important. I assume by the age group that this is their first school experience so behaviors like that will be common and will be caused by various reasons, different for each child. Temple Grandin explains how a simple thing to most like florescent lights can affect these kids. Another is Auditory Processing Disorder where in its worst form can lead to kids hearing scrambled sounds when spoken to, sometimes just consonants. I'll try to come back a bit later but now I strongly recommend that she read "The Way I See it" first.

 

Great ideas. I will mention them to her.

 

Bill

[PeterPan]

I have huge respect for the effort our local ps puts into kids and huge respect for anyone willing to work in challenging situations and care for our kids.  The kid there could be my kid, so I respect that.  I can see why she's frustrated about not receiving any training. 

 

On the plus side, that must mean the demeanor your wife has is very conducive to working with the kids, because frankly that's the only way I have to choose people.  I don't have my ds in ABA programs with trained people (well except for his new MT, who is at an ASD school), so when I put him somewhere (gymnastics, swim lessons, Sunday School, watching him for a couple hours, whatever), what I'm looking for is people who have those skills just by virtue of personality, character, upbringing, whatever.  It sounds like your wife has that, which is good.  Reading the books will help her be more intentional and more confident.

 

When I'm looking for people to work with my ds, I want someone who

 

-looks him in the eyes

-leads by joining rather than commanding (extended hand vs. distant command)

-says please and is respectful

-seems to enjoy him and who smiles, especially when he does things that are unexpected

-is incredibly calm

-works with him through respect and choice rather than extreme manipulation and control techniques

-has the energy or at least is willing to turn it on 

 

Pretty much that takes care of it.  If the person has those characteristics, everything else can be solved on the fly.  I'll structure out problems for people so they don't have to deal with more than they can handle.  That list might seem really obvious, but not everyone can do those things.  In a group of 100, I'll find maybe 1 or 2.  I'm saying your wife is probably already doing these things and that they are good.

 

I would assume the lead teachers in the class already have set up their schedules, communication cards, etc.  It's nice to understand *why* they work, absolutely.  That whole thought process about communication is so important.  People don't understand, nuts *I* fail to understand, that even with as much speech as my ds has (which is astonishing), he STILL is not communicating completely his thoughts.  He STILL has behaviors that have as their antecedent an inability to formulate a question and make a request.  And that can rub really raw on people and come across like they're being "bad."  What Lecka told me was to lose "bad" and shift it to needs help.  That's not what she said, but that's the jist.  Maybe they need more assistance to get to where they're trying to go.  My ds, in his heart, is often a very compliant dc, but once you introduce a communication problem (can't get it into words, into a question), you have a mess.  So Lecka is SO right that you can't assume based on what you see on the outside.  My ds bolted out of his music therapy class last week, just up and bolted.  Now, shockingly, he actually said he was going to the bathroom!  That's something we've been working on for a LONG TIME, getting him to say what he's doing, rather than just bolting.  And maybe someday we'll get to where he can ask first, hehe.  The MT smiled and didn't say a thing, because it just is how it is.  

 

I read an article a while back, and Lecka talks about this, about how much *choice* is squelched when you have communication issues, when you have ASD, and how important it is to bring in choice and respect as much as possible.  There's a book The Explosive Child which is not specifically about ASD or ABA but which is compatible.  It was profoundly helpful to me as a thought process and it's an easier, less soporific read than some of the ASD-specific stuff.  Might be one to add to her list and even if she just reads it selectively/quickly.

[Spy Car]

My little son used to be a "runner."  I hate saying "a runner" but "bolting" does not have the same ring, and it is something important to communicate about since it is a safety issue.  

 

So, I am really big into "functions of behavior."  

 

There is, iirc, a bit about this concept in both the books I linked earlier.  

 

Now, this concept can be done in ways that I think are on the abhorrent side.  But when they are done well -- they can be so helpful.

 

I can link quite a few books.  

 

But the short version is -- for "functions of behavior," you have a child who probably cannot, verbally, easily, express his or her needs.  So they express their needs through their behavior.  The needs are important, and meeting them is important, but so is having them communicate in a more acceptable way.  The two things are not mutually exclusive.  

 

Anyway -- you would say that the behaviors shown (throwing, running) are serving some kind of "function."  The functions are, basically, escape, attention, and access, plus "the kid just likes to do it."  

 

But the only way to figure out which function it is, is to look at ABCs, which are "antecedent, behavior, consequence," and try to see what connection there is between the antecedent and the behavior, or else, the behavior and the consequence.  

 

For my son -- he was most prone to escape behaviors, so I know the most about them.  But I have had a few times where I mis-identified the function, and it was really attention.  Well, the way that is recommended to respond, is opposite, so I was doing the exact wrong thing at those times.  But it is okay, everybody makes mistakes.  

 

He also had, according to the behavior therapist, a "mixed function" with his bolting behavior.  It could be for attention or escape.  At a certain point -- it was mostly just b/c he did not have a way to say "hey, mom, I'm ready to leave."  He did not know how to ask, he would just do things like go and get in the mini-van while we were at the park.  So prompting him/teaching him how to say he was ready to go, became pretty important there.  But there was a lot to it.  Happily he has not had a major incident since last Christmas!  And even it was not so bad, plus being in a place he had never been before.  

 

But anyway -- I think the Verbal Behavior Approach has a good chapter on this, and the book "An Early Start for Your Child with Autism" has a chapter about the ABCs of behavior iirc (where ABC stands for antecedent, behavior, consequence).  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Stop-That-Seemingly-Senseless-Behavior/dp/1890627763/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=12GNX66MQAFA5B5314GP&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR95%2C160_ There is also this book and its companion -- I think the "topics in autism" books are pretty good.  They are both about looking at the functions of behavior.

 

It is not that this is the end-all be-all ------ but it has been so helpful for me!  It has been so, so helpful!  

 

For kids who may be having more anxiety, too, http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Point-Scale-Significantly-Understanding/dp/1937473074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441074788&sr=8-1&keywords=the+incredible+5-point+scale this is something used in my district and people like it.  It is not something that my son has ever used, he is on the young side, the lower language level side, and also he does not seem like he is anxious.  I have been told he may be more anxious as he gains more social awareness, that this is a common thing, and may happen for him, to keep my eye out as he gets older.  But at this point -- I am familiar with it from hearing about it.  

 

It is also really important to look for better ways for kids to be able to communicate their needs.  This can take many forms and there may be one that is preferred by the school or by the speech therapist.  The 3 main ones are: PECS, sign language, and iPads.  (I think this is right.)  They each have their proponents.  

 

Of these I am familiar with PECS.  It is like -- there is something called Boardmaker that makes these little picture icons, and then kids learn the icons, and start to be able to see them.  My son has used them with a visual schedule, which was hard for him to learn (as he spent some time throwing his icons on the ground!), but has turned out to be pretty helpful.  It helps him to know what his expectations are and it helps a lot with transitions.  He is basically pretty good with verbally being told about transitions, now, but still, the visual is good.  This is something that can reduce behaviors, too.  

 

You can also just take pictures, and have pictures.  Or have objects.  It does not have to be Boardmaker icons.  But having things that are visual can make it possible for a child to communicate in a lot of times when they would not be able to communicate verbally.  

 

There are a lot of good practices.  

 

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/category/behavior-support-roundup-post/ I also agree with OhElizabeth -- I really like this "autism classroom resources" blog/facebook page.  This is the link to "topics: behavior."  The author is a BCBA (a behavior specialist) and she has got solid stuff imo.  She has got stuff that I have seen be effective with my son.  http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/what-are-replacement-behaviors-and-wha/  This is a post by her about "replacement behaviors."  This is -- teaching a new, better skill to take the place of a behavior that was not appropriate (but was serving to meet a need).  It can be a little hard or at least detailed, but I have seen it work, and then it is so nice.  

 

My son is one where ABA stuff is just a good fit for him.  It is not necessarily a good fit for everybody, and I know for anxiety there are different interventions.  But for my son, it is good stuff.  He used to be very delayed in his communication and so he had to do things the best way he knew how, which was basically just having a behavior that was not a good behavior, and then he has learned a lot of communication skills to meet his needs.

 

Just for an example -- about 2 years ago now, we had a problem with him hugging kids too tight, and also with kind-of being too rough.  He was observed by a behavior therapist, and she said he was trying to engage with the kids, but he didn't have good skills to engage in a more appropriate way.  So -- he needed to be taught those skills.  And it worked out well!  I was pretty surprised as *I* didn't pick up, at all, that he was trying to engage with kids.  I didn't know *what* he was thinking, at all.  So behavior that seems like it is bad (even aggressive) might be able to be turned around this way, just by teaching a better way to meet the same need.  At least, it has worked really well for my son.  

 

Oh, also, in one of the books I linked, it has a chapter about "top 10 strategies to reduce problem behaviors."  One of the strategies is to teach kids how to ask for a break.  This has been really helpful for my son, too, even though it has been a long process to teach him how this works, and give him chances to "ask" instead of just noticing he is beginning to need a break "for him" (so that he is just given breaks without learning to tell he needs them, b/c adults around him know his cues whether he knows them or not) etc. etc.  He is not independent on this yet, but he knows what a "break card" is, and that is really good.  

 

"First, then" was really important for him like this in the past, now he has got a total understanding of the "first, then" concept with no visuals needed -- the same as my other kids.  But it took a lot of teaching at first, too, so I am confident he will make the same progress with asking for a break.  

 

But it is one where, before I read this chapter, I had NO idea why it was important to be able to request a break.  I had heard it mentioned, but I thought "why bother" instead of "top 10 strategy."  

 

Edit:  Also, my son is not so much of a sensory kid, he is more of a language kid and a behavior kid.  It can really depend -- for kids who are much more impacted by sensory needs, that is very important, too.  My son benefits from sensory strategies, too.  

 

Edit:  Oh, I do like all the Temple Grandin books, too.  I read them first, and the Ellen Notbohm (spelling?) books about "things to know about children with autism."  I agree -- they are great books and very helpful!  I agree they are a good place to start.  

 

The stuff I am mentioning is a little more specialized and maybe hit-or-miss for some kids -- but it is what was so effective and helpful with my son.  In my personal life -- I know some other people who have had good results, and then some people where it has not been so helpful, but more sensory-based interventions have been very effective.  So I think it just depends.  But I do love it in my heart.  

 

Thank you for all the time you put into this post Lecka. It is very much appreciated. I've read it a few times, and plan to re-read it, as I'm drawing more each time. I'll also share it with my wife.

 

She was so tired last night that she fell asleep on top of the Temple Grandin book (which is a commentary only on a hard day, not the book) so I picked it up thinking I'd take a quick peek. It was so fascinated I was up half the night reading.

 

Thanks to all who've responded to the thread with ideas and information!

 

Bill

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[Spy Car]

Bill, :grouphug:  to your wife.

 

I have a beautiful and very intelligent 6-year-old boy who, before he could communicate his needs, was quite the challenge. He had a rich vocabulary very early on of nouns and verbs and would bring books to us at around 2 – 2 ½ and talk about animals, knowing what animal it was and saying short phrases including the noun and a verb. He could also repeat information he had heard from educational videos, mostly about animals, but he could not communicate his needs and had an extremely high tolerance to pain. The high tolerance to pain did not help him have a reference point for pain he could inflict on himself and others. His lack of social communication skills (his ability to communicate his needs) was almost non-existent. This made the behaviors that he was exhibiting due to his inability to communicate difficult to handle for us and even for him.

 

When we had his and his brother’s evaluation done my youngest was not offered any services for speech. I later found out that there is a long line (1 ½ - 2 year waiting list) for speech, many of these kids being nonverbal. We did everything in our power, at home, to deal with the language and behavior issues. I have read books upon books. We also put both on the gluten and casein free diet and thankfully, in a few months, the pain issue was resolved and he now had a reference point for pain. His language is still not age appropriate but we have and are constantly bridging that gap and the more challenging behaviors have stopped.

 

Bill, I am sharing all this to say, kudos to your wife for being willing to take on this challenge and at the same time learn ON HER OWN TIME how to better reach these kids. I know what I went through dealing with my youngest son (my oldest was not as challenging) and can’t even imagine having a number of kids in one class, with different family backgrounds, some with multiple labels, to deal with. I know it was hard for me at times not to take the behaviors personally with MY OWN CHILD. Your wife comes from a background where she was adored for her kindness. Kids that face such challenges cannot see that, not because they don’t want to but because they don’t have that ability. Please tell her to remember not to take any of the behaviors personally. I wish her strength! It will be tough for a while but she sounds like the type of person willing to take on the challenge and find a way to help.

 

I wanted to thank you for trusting our opinion in recommending resources to help her better deal with kids like ours. I hope that she is able to find the strength and resources that will help her handle this challenge and reach these kids.    

 

Thank you for you kind words, I'm touched. The great book suggestions could not be more appreciated (I'm hoping the others you suggested will be available today). I also appreciate you (and the others) sharing your experiences.

 

It is really helpful have some grounding from people who understand.

 

:grouphug: 

 

Bill

[Lecka]

I agree, it is hard behavior to handle. 

 

And a lot easier for me with my son, in a lot of ways, b/c he is my little baby that I have loved since I was pregneant with him and his sister. 

 

Having the framework to understand his behavior instead of just thinking "why? why is he doing this stuff?" helped me a huge amount, too.  That is why having behavior therapy (we had an ABA home program for my son while he was in pre-school, where he had ABA in the morning and then went to a special needs pre-school  in the afternoon) was so helpful -- the therapist would understand why he was doing certain things much better than I was able to.  Then when there is an explanation -- it makes everything a lot easier. 

 

Also the therapists have a vision for what kids can get to, that I did not have, just from a lack of knowledge.   

 

I am also grateful for people like your wife!  It is a blessing to the children and their parents, and to the other people she will work with. 

 

I hope she is getting good support from her lead teacher, too. 

 

Edit:  Also if he did not understand my communication to him, I needed to learn to communicate to him, by my actions, in a way that was clear and consistent to him, too.  It does work both ways.  It was easier for him when he could understand *me*, too.  That is something we got from ABA.  It might have been something a lot of different professions could have gotten for us, but that is what my husband's insurance pays for, and I haven't looked back.  He did have private speech and OT for a little while, but it did not work out, and now I am very happy with the OT he has at school, and there is a lot of overlap for speech/language goals between speech therapy and ABA and so he is still doing some hours of ABA after school, but it is mostly speech/language goals (and still some behavior goals here and there, but more for "new skills" than "bad behavior" -- even though they are both behavior goals in the way things are worded with it). 

 

 

[Guest]

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[Lecka]

Edit:  Spycar -- this post and my next are a response to Cricket.  It is specific to one form of therapy and probably is not worth your time!  It is just interesting to us. 

 

Well, in my area, and seemingly in general, ABA has changed a lot since Let Me Hear Your Voice was published in (I just peeked at Amazon.com) apparently 1993.

 

My son did/does (whatever) Verbal Behavior, based on B.F.Skinner's "analysis of Verbal Behavior" as it is always called. 

 

This is basically saying you don't just have "receptive" and "expressive" language.  Instead you have language used as a function, for a specific purpose.  (Love the functions, lol.  Quite the buzzword.) 

 

So they say -- that they often see (and this is familiar to me!) that you have a child who can label an item, or who has been taught to label an item.  But are they able to initiate (or request) asking for that item? 

 

And often the answer is no, no they can't.  Or, they don't.  And this is a criticism of older ABA, that they taught children to label, but didn't teach them to request or initiate, and not being taught those skills, they didn't learn those skills.

 

But with Verbal Behavior, they say, no, you have to teach all the "functions" (like requesting/asking/initiating, labeling, conversation, etc.) individually, IF you see that teaching one function is not resulting in a "transfer" to the other functions. 

 

So in my son's case it is QUITE the speech/language intervention. 

 

There are also things like wh questions (just as an example, b/c I saw a speaker about them recently, who is a speech therapist specializing in autism, who has an awesome reputation locally).  Well -- I saw her presentation, and I spoke to her, too.  And the bottom line -- for wh questions, the way she teaches them (and her students, as she is at a speech clinic and has therapists working under her) and the way they are taught with ABA (or how it is taught by my son's agency to my son)  ------ are basically the same. 

 

So whether my son goes to speech therapy to work on wh questions, or has ABA to work on wh questions ------ to some extent comes down to:  what does our insurance cover?  who does he happen to already know and have a good rapport with (which is worthwhile and it happens that we are not starting from scratch, he does have a good rapport with some ABA tutors), what is the location, what is the availability of therapists (there are waiting lists), etc. 

 

And for *our* insurance, we actually have more ABA covered than speech (or can have more approved).  For other people in my same town, they can get more speech hours approved by insurance, and so then, it makes a lot more sense to take their child to this clinic. 

 

But many of my son's ABA goals are focused on all aspects of language.  He started with the VB-MAPP and is in ABLLS now, and these both include a lot of speech/language goals, and I think they have been very appropriate and helpful for him. 

 

At the point he is at now, he could benefit from speech therapy, too.  He does well in speech therapy at school.

 

Longer ago, he was at a lower level where if they have not specialized in it, a lot of speech therapists are not as good imo.  I also think they are not necessarily going to have training in engaging with a child who is difficult to engage with, or who has behavior issues and may not comply with the therapy sessions.  The OT we saw for a while, this would be almost 3 years ago now, could not engage with my son at all, and really wasn't able to work with him.  It was just not helpful, b/c she was used to working with kids who were at a different place than he was at. But if we took him back there now, he would do great with her. 

 

Separately, I have watched a video about this, I will see if I can link it:  basically, the woman who writes the Verbal Behavior Approach describes a pattern that is what my son fit (she describes more than one pattern).  Basically -- you start with a child who has no ability (or a limited ability) to request things that they want (though maybe they can use language in other ways) and they have high behavior problems.  Then you teach them to request things they want.  As they increase the ability to request things, the behavior problems decrease.  I think it is like magic.  This is just one pattern, but since it is the one my son fit, I think it is amazing. 

 

But in this model -- teaching a child to request is part of the ABA therapy, it is not separated out as speech therapy.  So it is part of the ABA.  But that is a big thing -- that it is very common for them to see kids who have behavior issues and no ability to request, and they teach the kids to request, and as they can request more and more, they have less and less of their behavior problems. 

 

The idea is -- partly, they are so much less frustrated now that they are able to request the things they want, so they have a huge reduction in their day-to-day level of frustration, and also many more positive interactions with their family, as they are able to easily ask their parents for things and then be given the thing by their parents.  Oh, and it is a great chance for more engagement with the child, and it is led by something the child is requesting, so the child wants to have something to do with whatever it is, and maybe the parent can be involved, too, in some way, and then this is a learning opportunity and a chance to improve the parent-child relationship.  Partly, they may have been using behaviors to show that they wanted something since they lacked any another way to request. 

[Lecka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIs02pf3l5A 

 

This is a link, Cricket.  It is on the technical side. 

 

The main point (for me as it relates to my son) is that at the beginning, the little boy has a low score in "mand" which is requesting or asking for things.  Then he gets better at mands and his behavior improves.  It takes a 20-minute video but that is the main point to me. 

 

I like this woman, I like her book, and she seems very kind in all the videos I have seen of her working with kids. 

 

Spycar -- it is on the technical side, I do not get into the details myself, I just pick out the things I know are related to my son.  I just thought Cricket might possibly be interested. It is not something your wife would probably want to watch. 

[Guest]

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[Guest]

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[Lecka]

Cricket -- in really practical terms, my son is past the Verbal Behavior Approach book, for the most part.  I still use ideas and concepts, and the conceptual foundation of: using language to request/initiate needs to be looked at really separately from other uses of language, and the same for conversational language.  And then a lot of the ideas she mentions are ones that still come up very often (shaping, chaining, etc).  

 

But for her language for teaching -- in this book she doesn't go as far as teaching "why/because." 

 

I do still think it is a great book.  

 

It also explains a lot of terminology very clearly, which is very useful for me, since it is terminology that I hear often.  

 

But a lot of stuff she does is aimed at parents who are on a waiting list for services, or just beginning with their child, or who may have a choice among different ABA therapists (she has opinions about what makes for a more effective therapist and wants to share the "what to look for" information).  

 

I loaned out my copy and have not got it back, but I would get it on Kindle for $10!  It is easily worth that for me.  

 

 

[Guest]

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[Spy Car]

1001 Great Ideas for Teaching & Raising Children With Autism or Asperger's and Just Give Him the Whale! came in today. My wife is very excited to read them both.

 

She had a good (but hard) week. She and the teacher are becoming close. I think the teacher was a little reserved at first, figuring my wife would very likely bail out (there is a shortage of aides and she could have easily taken an easier position elsewhere). Now the teacher sees that my wife is committed and is very happy that's the case. So bonding and team work is happening.

 

You guys carry on, and don't mind me :D

 

Bill

[Guest]

That's awesome, Bill! I'm so happy for her :)

[Lecka]

I am happy for her, too.

 

I am sharing a link -- I signed up for this (totally free and easy) and watched one or two videos, and I felt like they talked too slow -- I am a much faster reader and I have better comprehension of written materials than auditory.

 

But this is a website that I have heard recommended by someone in our school district, and I was told that this is a resource they give to new aides to watch the videos.

 

It is from ocali http://www.ocali.org/and then there is a link for "autism internet modules."  http://www.autisminternetmodules.org/

 

(I just glanced at it again, and there is an "autism in the classroom" section.)  

 

This is a place that Brenda Smith Myles works, and she came last year to an autism workshop, and I heard her speak and I thought she was very good.  Then I went to some parent sessions, and she did more sessions with teachers, aides, OTs, SLPs, and those kind of people.  So this is who someone in our school district likes -- but I think the person who likes it is very good, and I feel comfortable to copy her if she thinks something is good.  

 

Edit:  It has a module on "functional communication training" that she might like.  There are 7 or 8 other ones under "Autism in the Classroom" that jump out at me like they might be topics that would be helpful for her.  

 

If she is in a classroom where they are doing this kind of thing and using this kind of language, and she has any questions about the terminology, I do know a lot of it by now.  The terminology is very hard at first, but a lot of it *can* be made a lot simpler, but people who have been doing it a while tend to explain one term by using another term, so it gets very circular, and it is a huge annoyance to me.  It is also common to have something be explained using different terms depending on whether someone has a speech therapy background, special education background, or psychology background.  It drives me crazy at times -- so crazy. 

 

So -- this website is more on the ABA side, and may not be as helpful if it is just not the same language that is being used.  Even though they might be doing the same things as they are things that are effective.

 

There is a lot in autism, sometimes, of people saying "no, no, we don't do THAT," but then, oh, yeah they do ----- they just call it by a different name or look at it from a different conceptual framework.  But they are actually doing the exact same thing.  

 

I just read a book I REALLY like (Now I See The Moon) and the woman has some bad experiences with ABA (the two things she mentions ---- they are really not good things!  one is that her son was in an orphanage and didn't get enough to eat, and then people wanted to use food as a reward, and it just was not right for him to feel like food would be withheld from him; the other is that an aide was told to keep her son in a classroom no matter what, and that was also really not a good thing).  So she says she just does not do ABA.  But then she goes on to describe using major extinction and shaping strategies (as they would be called in ABA) but she did not label it as "extinction" or "shaping."  She labeled them as things that made sense to her and that worked.  But for me I would use those labels b/c that is how I have learned about it.  

 

Edit:  I just looked back at another module, and after an introduction video, it was text!  And it did look good to me.  So I think I am going to go back through some of these, too.  

[PeterPan]

 I originally taught him to connect love with a hug. Yes, I had to teach my 4 year old how to say “I love you†to me, something that most moms hear naturally when the child reaches that stage. First I had him connect it with a hug. Later I had him progress to connecting love with the following for example:

 

-        We don’t hurt someone when we love him or her.

-         When we love someone we take care and help them.

 

This is all done in a practical sense as I am also adding what I have learned from Mark Ittleman’s (CCC-SLP), The Teaching of Talking. What I found really helpful about his book was that it offers very practical guidance with examples and teaches you to work based on the child’s (or adult’s) level. I set my own goals that I want us to work on but I think I need to add a bit more structure to my approach.

 

This is brilliant!  You're right, right now we have love as sort of formula (connected to hugs, connected to routines).  We hadn't made the leap to the more abstract applications.  I like your phrases a lot.  :)  So they were in that book?  I know you had mentioned it before, but somehow I never got it.  The library has it, so that's good.

[PeterPan]

Spy Car, you can tell us how 1001 is.  Haven't seen that one.  I finally finished Autism Every Day: Over 150 Strategies Lived and Learned by a Professional Autism Consultant with 3 Sons on the...  which was good.  It's a lighter read, not real technical, but there was a lot I could identify with.  Her Walmart chapter is spot on.  Actually, her walmart chapter changed my life.  Lecka should have told me that's what I was supposed to do years ago! :D

 

You know I'm just razzing you Lecka, right?  I assume what she describes for shopping is ABA.  You had TOLD me ABA could solve my shopping problem, but I didn't see how.  She tells how she did it with her worst one, and it was exactly the kinds of techniques that would work for my ds (lists, having him help, velcro lists or things for him to cross off as we find them, etc.), so it was like wow so obvious in hindsite.  I haven't tried it with him yet, but I think it's a good developmental step.

 

So, since we're gabbing, what does ABA do for wetting and not feeling when you wet?  And are those techniques useful when it seems to vary with his emotional state?  (3-5 times one day, none another)  I suppose you're going to tell me just to keep him stable.  I should be so fortunate.

 

 

[Guest]

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[Lecka]

I think this is where you would benefit from having an assessment of his skills first. 

 

You know how I have linked to the ABLLS and there are all these skills? 

 

And they are scored from 0 to 4, where 0 is "never, ever present," and 4 is "very good?" 

 

And in-between 0 and 4, you have 1, 2, and 3? 

 

Well, one factor for ABA (and there are several) is that they will consider a skill marked as a 1 or 2, as not likely to be used in any more difficult situation (for whatever reason it is difficult), compared to a skill marked 3 or 4.  That is just -- where you are currently at in acquiring that skill.  If you are at a 2, well, you are not at a 4.  You can say "what can we do to get from 2 to 3, then from 3 to 4?" and you can ask "does this need to be a current goal, or is it one to wait on, and just adjust to knowing it is currently a 1 or a 2?" 

 

So that is just background -- what are various skill levels.  And -- it can be hard to make a plan if you do not know current skill levels. 

 

Then -- there is probably a task anaysis for it.  This is every little skill that is needed.  The therapist has an idea of the task analysis.  You could google "task analysis" and a keyword (potty training or toileting I guess) and see a task analysis.  It might be more or less complete depending on if it is for special needs or not.

 

So for us personally -- here are some items that we had to work on before we could start what seemed like "actual potty training," b/c he had to work on foundational skills on the task analysis.

 

So -- there is "initiating."  If a child does not initiate very much, and does not initiate a preferred activity that is totally naturally reinforcing ------ how likely is it for that child to initiate to go to the bathroom?:  Maybe not so likely.  Some building blocks needed to be in place for us there.

 

Then there is "sitting."  If a child does not sit on a chair but just flops to the ground, how likely are you to get them to sit on a toilet?  This was the case for us, too. 

 

Then there is "entering the bathroom."  I was recommended to start changing my son's diaper in the bathroom, to just start to build the association with the bathroom, since it was too early to work more directly on it.  Well, I kept not doing it.  She would ask "how is that going?" and I would say "oh, well, I am not doing it."  It comes out -- and I didn't really realize this -- that my son was screaming when we got to the bathroom door b/c he did not like brushing teeth or taking a bath, so he just routinely started screaming/protesting when we got to the door b/c he expected to have to bathe or have his teeth brushed.  So we started all the way back with "making the bathroom a fun place where fun things happen" which took time, and also working on improving bathing and teeth brushing (in various ways).  We needed to improve all of those before we could work on potty training, b/c that is where we were at, and that seemed like what our priorities should be (priorities are chosen with the parents and the therapist, so this is partly what made sense to me, and partly what made sense to her as something that could work).

 

Then there is "pulling your pants up and down."  My son had trouble pulling down his underwear and pants quickly.  He also had trouble quickly pulling down his underwear and pants and then sitting on the toilet.  So these are two steps in a behavior chain -- the chain of behaviors.  So we spent time working on the first step, then the first and second, before we were at the point of actual potty training, b/c it was clear he needed the time, and clear he would do better if he had those two steps down. 

 

Then there is following directions.  He needed to be able to follow directions to a certain point, this skill is (I was told, for him) best brought up to a certain level separately from potty training, b/c it is better to not try to do two things at once sometimes, and that is what she thought for him. 

 

So -- that is the whole "skill level, task analysis" side.  That is just one part.  Just one little part.  But it is all pretty important. 

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Lecka, I had a whole bunch of lightbulbs go off there.  I'll think about it and probably have some more.  I'm seeing I have some things I can change RIGHT NOW, wow.

 

Ok, so when he's not consistently initiating it, when he's not going from a preferred thing (whatever he's doing) to a less preferred thing (going to the bathroom), how do I get through that?  Like last night, he's sitting there, and I thought it has been a while, he needs to go, when he SITS to watch tv he invariably gets wet.  Invariably  And he doesn't even have to be there long.  It's like once he's there it's OVER.  (I'm all hyperbole, but you get my point.)  And I say you need to get up, go to the bathroom, and he goes no I don't, I'm fine.  I say are you wet, and it's no.  Then after another minute (processing, thinking), it's oh let me check the time, I can get in my jams, which is to say he realized at that point he was wet and would change into jams and night pants.  

 

That's one scenario.  There are others.  I'm just saying the only explanation I had before was that he was bad, that he was just too lazy, too distracted, too boyish to get up and go.  And if someone is merely *bad* you punish them and tell them to change.  Our gut has been that there's something wrong.  So to break down the skills and say how he is initiating, that's fascinating.  We just haven't been willing to analyze it as him being bad, because it doesn't read that way to your parent gut.  

 

So you reward/incentivize initiating?  For everything or just for pottying?  I've got a positive chart, so it wouldn't be that hard to do.  It just hadn't occurred to me.  Or there are other ways to teach/practice it?

 

Yes, you're right that I had inadvertently separated bathrooming tasks.  That is easily solved.  Making it more positive, easily solved.  In fact, it's weird, but he shares a bath with his sis and apparently doesn't like it.  We could change that.  We could make it an awesome place he wants to be.  We could move the trash can for his night pants into the bath, so all bathrooming tasks are in one place.  I had worked with dd to make some changes to make the space more friendly to ds.  I'm just thinking we could take it farther in a way that might get into his brain and help.  

[Lecka]

But you are saying, it sounds like, that he has at least parts of the task analysis mastered. 

 

So this leads to some thoughts as to why he is not performing in all situations.

 

One, could the task analysis actually be different.  Could there be something different about the steps he needs to take, b/c of being in a different location or situation, and he literally does not know what he is supposed to do, b/c he has not been taught.  So that is back to task analysis, and looking to see what the steps are he needs to take to succeed. 

 

Two, could it be generalization.  Could he need to have more explicit practice in different settings and situations?  If this is the case -- it is pretty normal and expected.  You would just want to look at your prompts, your prompt-fading plan, and your generalization plan.  Do you need to practice by going to (for us the zoo) a certain place and it is an outing, but really the purpose of the outing is "get him used to using the bathroom at the zoo" or "get him used to it at McDonalds" or "get him used to it here or there."  Maybe you have social stories or whatever. 

 

If you want to practice -- literally there is advice "feed your child salty snacks and make a preferred liquid available" so that you will have many opportunities for them to need to pee and then you practice them peeing.  Like -- oh no, you don't just leave it to chance, that they need to pee, if you are out to practice peeing. 

 

So that is considerations for generalization.

 

Three, it could be that it is a behavior of some kind.  For this -- you just have to collect data and look for a pattern.  Do you see that he is peeing b/c he knows he will be taken home?  Or taken for a long break to change in the car, or get supplies from the car and then spend time in the bathroom changing?  Is that a pattern?  Does he know how to request to leave?  Does he get overwhelmed and not have another way to ask for a break?  Like -- who knows.  You can only find out by taking data and looking for a pattern.  Alternately -- could he pee for attention, b/c he knows "mom will take me to change my clothes, and not be busy not paying attention to me."  That is another possibility -- you would only find out by taking data and looking for a pattern.  Could it be one reason half the time, and the other reason half the time?  Yes, yes it could.  That is where you get into functional behavior, and what is the function of the behavior.  You just have to "take ABC data" where you write down the antecedent, behavior, consequence and then look for patterns (or take this to someone who could look for patterns for you -- which you can do when you have a nice record to show to someone, not this vague "well, two weeks ago, I think this might have happened" that we all get when we do not write it down).  Then you go to -- what could he do instead, to meet the same need?  How do we encourage him to do that, instead of peeing? 

 

Four, it could be that he is not in "ready to learn."  That is what we call "equilibrium" or something, locally.  It is some long word that nobody uses.  If he is "tuning out," he is tuning out.  He is not  tuning out except, oh yeah, I will not tune out when it comes to going to the bathroom.  If that is the case -- you have to go back to "getting to ready to learn."  I don't think there is a way around it.  It is just one of those really basic things -- if kids are not in "ready to learn," or if they can't return to "ready to learn" quickly, then there is not much you can do.  If they are out of ready to learn, then they are out of ready to learn, and it takes time to get back to ready to learn.  I saw an entire presentation about this complete with a graph, showing how long it takes kids to get back to "a ready to learn state" after they have been either having a meltdown (outward manifestation of not being in a ready-to-learn state), or else being very withdrawn (an inward manifestation of not being in a ready-to-learn state).  They don't snap back in an instant.  So you are supposed to do whatever you can to keep kids in ready-to-learn, b/c if they get out of ready-to-learn, they are going to be off for a while, b/c they have gotten far enough out of equilibrium it will take them time to get back to it.  So this is a really high priority.  Lots of stuff to do here -- sensory, improving communication, giving choices, etc, etc, etc, all the usual things, but it is really important. 

 

Five, it could be motivation.  Maybe he needs a really good reinforcer, and that will help.  Maybe he needs an amazing reinforcer.  Then once the behavior is established, you fade the reinforcement. 

 

But all of this works together.  You can't say "well, it is behavior" when it is really "lack of a skill."  You can't say "well, it is not a high-value reinforcer" if it is "behavior." 

 

This is where I really think it is worth it to consult with a good therapist.  They can sort through these things.  Even if you do the implementing yourself ----- for them to sort through it, if it is a good person, and a nice person, it is just so worthwhile.

 

And there could be underlying skill deficits, behavior functions, or difficulty with maintaining "ready to learn" that the person could help you with, that might be just as important as potty training, and so it might be really worthwhile.

 

But you know me, I am a True Believer, lol.  But I also think you might be able to get this help from a lot of people who have the experience!  There are a lot of "best practice" things that a lot of people are doing.  It is hard to figure out when n=1.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Gotta go, but I'm reading what you wrote and I'll be back!  I added some to my previous post too.  :)

[Lecka]

Separately -- if you see there is a pattern that he may be in some distress, may be trying to leave and not know how to request a break or maybe you don't WANT him to leave, or if he is seeking attention ------- I think it is really worthwhile to look for help for these.  B/c if he is seeking to leave a place and you want him to stay -- you need advice on, do you not have it be a current goal to have him stay there?  Or, is it a current goal?

 

B/c what is possible to happen, is that if he is peeing, and that doesn't work, well, what will he try next?  Will he escalate?  What level of escalation do you need to be prepared to handle?  Or do you need to back off?  It is a balance and a fine line, and a therapist is hopefully going to be really helpful there.  B/c basically, there are some battles you fight, and there are some battles you just don't fight, you just exit the battle field.  And it is hard to know which is which -- but really important, b/c to be effective, you need to fight some battles and then not fight others.  And not fighting battles you should fight -- not good.  Fighting battles you shouldn't fight -- also not good.  But so good when it is the right thing at the right time.  Also it fits in with the "buckets" from Ross Greene that I know you like!  But it makes sense for many reasons, too. 

 

Then, if it is a pattern where he is distressed and not in "ready to learn," then you really need to work on "ready to learn."  B/c there are consequences to kids being out of "ready to learn" -- it can throw off the whole day or it can throw off several hours.  It is just something that needs to be in place for other things to happen.  And then -- it is so individual, it is hard to say, what he will need.  There are themes and patterns, but I think people who have experience can pick it out pretty quickly a lot of the time. 

[Lecka]

Okay -- I can see some options, looking at your additional post. 

 

I still think you should see a consultant.  I am very pro-consultant, think how good it would be!  I think it would be nice if you could try again for the scholarship.

 

But anyway -- one option is changing how he watches tv.  Go to DVDs and you control the DVD remote.  You don't do "play all," you do "episode select."  So HE does not GET to CONTROL the tv.  You get to control it.  Will this make him mad?  Maybe -- it would be a major access issue very possibly.  So pros and cons there.  Would be nice to discuss with a consultant as far as priorities. 

 

But anyway -- if YOU control the TV (or DVD or whatever) ----- (and I switched to DVDs for this reason, especially when Netflix went to its stupide "automatically play the next episode" thing, instead of letting me be in control of pressing x to start a new epidosde....)........ so, if YOU control the DVD, then you just hit play for one episode.  So then -- it ends and he has a tantrum, whatever.  Of course he has a tantrum.  But you have some options.  I don't know the best way to do it.  I would be worried about not responding in the most ABA effective way -- b/c I need advice for these steps, I really do.  But anyway -- you can require him to do something you want him to do, as a "first, then," before he gets another episode.  Maybe your "first, then" is that he sits on the toilet.  But realistically -- I have had my son sit on the toilet and then pee afterward, I can't *make* him pee on the toilet (well, you can make him sit there forever, but how is that productive, at a certain point, especiallywhen he has the skill but is not using it -- how is that likely to get to the goal we want?).  So maybe you *don't* tie "this new DVD policy he hates" to "toileting."  It might have backlash that leads to toileting backlash.  So maybe, if you go this route, you spend two weeks (or three weeks, or 1.5 weeks) establishing this new routine that "mom controls the tv, and plays one epidosde of the DVD at a time."  Or else you could work on transitioning from the tv.  What I am saying with the DVD -- it is a major "compromise" instead of going right to "transitioning from the tv."  But maybe you go straight there.  But "transitioning from a preferred item" is one where I got major help -- my son was very prone to throwing things at this time and it is hard for me when something is thrown at me.  I feel like -- this is where a therapist is so helpful to me.  But anyway -- maybe you just go for "well, we are not going to have him sit in front of the tv as long as he wants and refuse to transition."  If it is transitioning - -I don't know. It might not be.  But anyway -- there is a whole direction that way.  But I would not do it and toileting at the same time -- b/c those are two huge things, and you only do one huge thing at a time, in general. (Editing -- but we start -- and this is in the Verbal Behavior Approach book -- just showing -- that if we pause the show, it is okay, we will unpause it, it will be okay, we are not taking it away forever, etc -- so you can start with just reinforcing not flipping out when a DVD is paused -- but then to do this, maybe you have to sit through a tantrum first -- or something --again ------ this is something where I do not think I would have been successful without a therapist, necessarily, for my situation.) 

 

(Edit:  But this is consolidating a more-than-one-year process, b/c we started with just pausing a show for an instant, on a DVD or a Netflix episode ----- we started with just pause/unpause for a second.  That is pretty far from working up to "okay time to turn off the tv."  That is what was appropriate for us.  I think it is something where it is finicky and details matter, and it is very individual, too, and the therapist may decide to add in a lot of little things and also adjust as things either work out or don't work out, which she would see by looking at the ABC data I would take and the ABC data she would take.)   

 

(Edit:  Also this "control" or "access" issue is a theme for some kids.  If you happened to watch the video I linked in this thread earlier, at one point there is a little boy with a juice bottle.  And she says "at this point I am just reinforcing (or some word, maybe another term) that *I* hold his juice bottle, b/c he has been having a meltdown just over not holding his juice bottle."  Well -- if you start there, that is your starting point.  If you start with the child not having that "control/access" behavior, then you don't need to start there.  But I am assuming that it is partially this kind of issue with the tv, b/c it would be common, but you don't *know* that is what it is without investigating and trying things, I think.  But there is a kind-of general protocol for what you do with the "access/control" kind of issues.  And if that is an issue with the tv, then you don't know, "is this really about the toilet, on some level, or on some level, is it really about him controlling his access to the tv."  Or is it just he has trouble transitioning -- but it is more that than the access -- though they are related, it could be more one or the other.  And then -- what if he just needs to have a pause between episodes, and that is enough to give him a chance to realize, "Oh, yeah, I do need to pee," b/c getting caught up in another activity and not realizing you need to pee is still kind-of on the age-appropriate side, there are still people giving their child a routine that involves a chance to realize they need to pee, and it is not like "oh this is an autism intervention," it can just be a little thing you do for a kid who is prone to accidents.  But then -- how easy is that to do, in practice, if your child does not transition well, and actually it would be a big deal to be able to just transition to an activity that, when doing it, the child pays attention to needing to pee.) 

 

Separately -- yes, you can reinforce him just for initiating.  Maybe he runs and sits on the toilet during a commercial, and doesn't pee.  Yes, you can reinforce that he left the tv to sit on the toilet, even if he didn't pee.  If you are shaping a desired behavior -- that can be part of shaping.  Shaping is a little hard for me also -- I need advice.  You want to make the child do just a little more to get the same reinforcement.  If he goes in and he does pee -- he gets 5 times as much as he gets for going to sit but not peeing.  The first time.  You stay almost that high then for a while, and then reduce.  But I have always gotten advice on "what do I do if he does the actual target behavior?" and "now what do I do?"  B/c there are principles, but when it comes to "yes, give him 10 gummy worms if he does the target behavior" and then how do you go from there to "half a gummy worm" and then no gummy worms.  And in the meantime, once he does the target behavior, do you quit reinforcing the approximations?  Or still reinforce them a little bit?  This all is "it depends" even though there is a method to it -- I don't figure out these details myself, though. (Edit:  to be clear -- I would have written down the advice of "if he does this, I do this" and then as he improves this changes, and I write down my new version of "if he does this, I do this."  That is the detail I don't figure out.  But I understand the principle and what is going on, I'm not just blindly following a mystical guide.  And sometimes it will be like "okay, give social praise for the approximation, but give the tangible reinforcer for the target behavior" -- but I need to ask about this and be given advice that I write down as "do this, do that" so it is extremely clear and simple for me.) 

 

And the most helpful material I have read about shaping is with animals.  The reason is -- they may not have much language.  So it is really separating out shaping behavior, from giving verbal explanations.  It was helpful for me.  Karen Pryor (or Prior) writes animal training books that talk a lot about just shaping (and maybe reinforcement, too, but mostly those parts are dependent variables with her, and shaping is the focus).

 

But anyway -- I do think you could either decide he doesn't get to control the tv that way, which is an option, and downstream would possibly help the peeing.  But he might get wrapped up in something besides tv and still pee.  It is not a sure thing.  But if could be a possibility.  Then you could also look at the steps of the task analysis and reinforce the step where he is having trouble and try to shape the behavior at that step in some way.  That would be more saying "he is struggling at the point of leaving a preferred activity to pee, so lets reinforce that behavior, or any behavior that is a approximation of that behavior."  And then that is like -- a teaching strategy and a motivation strategy.  

 

You also would need to think of a way to make it "naturally reinforcing."  To be "naturally reinforcing" -- that means, it is in his favor if he gets up to pee.  What would make that naturally reinforcing for him long term?  What are reasons that anyone stops what they are doing to get up and pee, instead of peeing in their clothes and then later getting up to change their clothes after they have completed their preferred activity?  So that is just something where you always give it some thought, and maybe one way IS to make it really easy in every way to get up and pee and return to the activity -- making it easier in every way is a good strategy there (easier as far as -- just every part of it, how easy it is for him to do every step, and if he likes the bathroom, all of it).  Then so is not having to clean up dirty clothes.  Then there is the social level where "that is not what people do" or "I am a big boy, not a baby" and that kind of thing.  Relying only on that social level may not be how you get to naturally reinforcing -- even though it is important, too.   

 

Edit:  There is also a big theme for parents of "oops, you have accidentally reinforced the wrong thing" or "oops, you thought you were reinforcing an improvement in behavior, but it was not a behavior that is a step closer to the behavior you desire, so oops, you have reinforced a different but still undesirable behavior."  This would be like "he screamed instead of hitting me, so that is good, right?  I should reinforce that, right?"  And then it might be "oops, nope."  So that is where -- that is *really* the hard part about reinforcement and shaping, and reading about it, and especially getting first-hand advice, from someone who can see you, is just SO helpful.  It is really, really worthwhile.  I also have a lot of confusions, still, about what and how to reinforce -- I still ask a lot.  And I have been doing this for almost 3 years!  And I would say -- I have been doing it at a pretty high level for a parent, for a solid 2 years.  And I still need to ask b/c it is not easy to figure out, there is not an easy formula for it.

 

B/c this is not easy stuff -- this is pretty hard stuff. 

[Lecka]

Oh, separately, for where we started, we started with reinforcing *every* inititation.  If he asked for a donut, we got in the car and drove to the grocery store, and he picked a donut.  Anything he asked for, he got it.  IF he asked in some appropriate way.  B/c he had had ZERO, basically.  Then we want to reinforce it until it is at a high level (or a certain level).

 

So that is where we started. 

 

Yes, this set us up for starting to say "we can have a donut later" and him not caring for that so much.  So that was a later step for us.  It is "tolerating no" or "tolerating waiting." 

 

So we might start with, instead of immediately getting in the car, waiting a bit of time, and then going.  B/c we are dreadfully worried about "not reinforcing him initiating, such that his initiating behavior decreases."  B/c that is something you worry about when you used to have ZERO. 

 

But it is really possible with your son -- maybe it is appropriate to reinforce some of his initiating, or a lot of it, or all of it.  It just depends on how much he initiates in a day.  There are actual numbers here.  I don't know them.  But it is like "x initiations in a day." I think.  Like -- it used to be huge if my son had a single initiation in an entire day. 

 

But then it is, what is he initiating for?  And it gets broken down into all these little categories.  He might have some areas where he is doing good and it is appropriate for him to "accept no" or "tolerate waiting."  And he will still initiate, b/c he is still observed to initiate in those areas. 

 

He may  have other areas where he does not initiate or it is rare, and then you do want to encourage that, in some form.  Which -- there are many forms that could take, too, depending.

 

But we started with ZERO so we reinforced EVERYTHING. 

 

If you have zero in an area, and then, yay, it is emerging, then yeah, you totally reinforce it. 

 

But it is back to -- do you have a really accurate idea of all his skill levels within the category of "initiating?"  B/c sometimes you need that to encourage each area and also to expect more in the areas where it is appropriate to expect more. 

 

But it will be, like, "what is he initiating, and in what situation."  Like -- can he initiate things at home, that he can't initiate in another location?  Can he initiate that he wants to eat, but not that he wants to drink?  Can he initiate that he wants an item, but not that he wants an activity?  And then it gets to where the communication aspect (ability to ask) combines with the executive function aspect (ability to think of what you want and decide you want it ---- AKA providing visuals, providing more structure).  So you might make the executive function side easier while working more on the communication side. Then when the communication side is better, have that as a foundation, and work more on the executive function side.

 

But a lot of this -- it is more specific to my son, than it is general.  Even though it is general, too.

 

But keep in mind, too, my son is not complex.  He is a pretty boiler-plate kid in a lot of ways, in that very standard ideas work for him, and while they need tweaking, it is usual tweaking, it is not like "this kid is complex" tweaking.  So I think that is important to keep in mind, too, and I think that means -- you just have to pay more attention to details and be open to more causes and effects that could be going on. 

 

Edit:  Initiation does include a lot of things.  It includes things like "saying hello" and it can include "asking for help."  It can include starting a conversation.  It includes a lot, depending on how people are using words.  We are extremely basic in "social initiation" skills but that might be where your son is on that level in some areas.  But it is supposed to be good to do a skill inventory b/c kids can be prone to having a missing section of skills somewhere.  But "asking for help" is supposed to be really common.

 

There is also "initiating questions with wh questions" and there are levels within that depending on how concrete/abstract the question is, whether it is about something you see (what's that?) or about something you don't see (where is my brother?). 

 

So it gets very in-depth. 

 

But there is a progression, in general, and in general, you want to maintain old skills while adding new ones. (And so -- you watch to see if old skills are maintained.  If they are not -- maybe you realize you need to review more, and establish a different "review of previously mastered materials" system, like a box system or something..  Maybe you change the environment to provide an opportunity for the skill to occur.  Maybe you think about a way to make the skill "naturally reinforcing."  Etc.)

[Laurie]

 

 

The first batch of books should be ready for pick up soon. I'm especially intrigued by the Just Give Them The Whale book (on a practical level) and loved the Temple Grandin movie.

 

 

 

I like Temple Grandin's movie, too, but I'm also a huge fan of documentaries.   This is a good one:   "Autism:  The Musical" 

(Stephen Stills from Crosby, Stills and Nash is in it, in case you're a fan.)

 

[Guest]

nm 

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

This was posted temporarily and I have now removed it.