Is Programming the Latin of our day?

[MeaganS]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  My husband and I have come to the conclusion that programming is a non-negotiable skill in our homeschool.  As I've thought about the benefits of it, it seems like many of them overlap with those benefits that traditionally describe Latin.  For years I've waffled on whether Latin is important or not and I just haven't been convinced of its usefulness.  Most of the benefits described can be obtained by other language study and logic as far as I can tell.

 

It seems to me that the modern, but useful, equivalent of Latin is programming.  It is a universal language and it teaches logic.  It also helps you understand a large part of your world that many don't understand.

 

So while I am probably not giving the best arguments for each side, I thought I would see if anyone wants to discuss this idea.  Is computer programming a legitimate substitute for Latin in a modern neoclassical-inspired homeschool?

[Onceuponatime]

I'm curious to know how parents who have no experience with programming would provide that for their kids. I agree that it will be a valuable skill to have, but don't have any idea how to begin implementing it.

[MeaganS]

I took one C++ class in high school, which was enough to teach me the very basic theory, but other than that I know very little.  There are so many awesome resources out there now, even for very young kids.  My basic scope and sequence plan at this time is to start with programming concepts via games and apps like Kodable and Code.org's Elementary-age curricula coming out this September.  After that and possibly concurrently, we will move to languages designed for children like Scratch Jr. and regular Scratch.  Once the kids are proficient in those and other basic computer skills like typing and using the internet, they will start regular programming languages, although I will probably wait until then to decide which ones.

 

Scratch Jr. has lesson plans available to teach it.  Scratch has many, many resources out there as well.  Actually, pretty much every programming language has resources out there available for self-teaching.  Khan Academy does programming too.  I completely plan on learning it with my children, though.

 

I'm curious to know how parents who have no experience with programming would provide that for their kids. I agree that it will be a valuable skill to have, but don't have any idea how to begin implementing it.

 

[G5052]

I've actually had locals ask me that because I teach IT at the community college, and have taught high school Latin classes locally.

 

Latin is a great language for understanding both your own language and how other languages work.  It also teaches you about cultures.  It can't be beat for learning vocabulary.

 

Computer languages are fine, but they're for humans to communicate with computers.  They're limited that way, and don't express ideas, emotion, and culture.

 

In our house, mine do both, and do both well.

 

[dragonflyer]

If you are learning Latin to focus on the logic aspect, programming can be an excellent tool for teaching logic.

But as someone who has spent years doing programming professionally, I cannot wait to learn Latin in order to understand the historic great conversations better, to solidify my understanding of English grammar, and to also study formal logic in order to properly understand argument and refutation.

Even growing up homeschooled with a degree in Computer Science, there is a great deal more education I wish to remediate within myself, including Latin.

[CrunchyGirl]

This is a really interesting question. For us, the plan is up require both. But then again LegoMan happens to love both and is good at both so at this point that plan seems doable.

[IsabelC]

I am intrigued by your suggestion.

 

One reservation I would have is that programming languages go in and out of fashion quite quickly, and so people my age who did programming 20 years ago do not use those skills now (although I guess that, like Latin giving you a good foundation for learning other languages, any programming would teach you the basic idea of it?) On the other hand, it must be a lot more fun these days to learn, with all those nifty iPad apps and so on, so why not?

[IsabelC]

Here is a piece from a couple years ago, but some relevant points still. Although I'm not quite agreeing with him plumbing analogy, because practically every specialist occupation has some really simple bits that everybody could learn to handle without calling the professional.

[librarymama]

Interesting topic!

 

We will definitely require both. My husband is a software developer and has very strong opinions about the *right* way to code - and it isn't so much about knowing a programming language as it is creating a logical solution to a problem. This is a very worthwhile skill even for those who won't be programmers as adults.  

 

I am going to let him handle that aspect of our children's education while I tackle Latin. 

[Tranquility7]

I was a software developer before having kiddos, and am now a new Latin aficionado (though certainly no expert).

 

Programming and Latin have intersecting sets of benefits, but each also has enough other benefits to merit further study.

 

Both programming and Latin reinforce logical and orderly thinking, and both  help us to see the world in a different way, recognizing patterns and similarities where previously we only saw differences.

 

Programming trumps Latin in the area of creativity, and particularly creative problem solving. This is true not only because of the artistry involved in designing a user interface or other graphical elements, but also because of the creative thinking required to figure out how to solve a real-world problem (even just a small one!) by creating a computer application (and further, how to design it to be elegant and efficient).

 

However, Latin trumps programming in the area of integration – I have found Latin to be the fundamental integrating element in all of our studies.  When we study Latin, we find ourselves talking about grammar, vocabulary, spelling, literature, science, history, geography, music, etc.  Without Latin, we studied a bunch of separate subjects. With Latin, they have become a cohesive, interrelated whole.

 

[Tress]

I always assumed English is the Latin of our day. The whole world is learning English, it is the lingua franca :D.

 

I can't tell how envious I am of you native speakers. The amount of time it would free if my children would have learned English from birth and I didn't need to pound every vocab word individually into their heads :smash: .

 

I do think that programming is an excellent way to study logical and clear thinking. I do hope my computer engineer hubby will take this on, because with teaching English and Latin and self-educating Greek...I'm pretty maxed out.

[stripe]

I studied computer programming a fair amount in college and learned a variety of languages, including one I taught myself. There is a tremendous logical component, and, utterly unlike natural languages, once you understand a few very well, it's, as my professor used to say, trivial to learn additional languages. However, this requires learning languages fairly deeply, not simply playing for an hour or two with visual languages like Scratch.

 

Obviously there are entirely separate reasons to learn Latin which wouldn't be achieved by studying programming languages, though.

After the first two years of Latin, students spend almost 100% of their time reading and translating ancient literature.   Very little time is spent creating or composing new Latin sentences.   While there is a tremendous amount of creativity in providing a new translation aimed at non-Latin readers (i.e. How would Cicero have said this, if he spoke English),  high school or even college level students spend very little time doing this:  their objective is:  provide the most literal translation of Cicero, no matter how clunky that may sound in English, and the "correct" literal translation is surprisingly objective.

 

As I understand it, programming is almost the complete opposite:  programmers spend all of their time creating new things, they rarely spend much time reading other programs, except to learn how to interact with the programs they themselves are creating.  And there usually is not one way to do things, there is substantial leeway, and a lot of room for subjectivity in terms of what is best, or the "right way" to do things.

[Walking-Iris]

I think both is important. I've decided that Latin is useful on some levels.But I've also decided that there's very little value in translating ancient classics. Latin is useful for science  and law fields, and for academia. Unless my children went into one of those specialties, I'm content with a basic overview for grammar and vocab purposes.

 

I feel the same way about programming. Unless one of my kids were going into that field, a basic knowledge would be enough. 

 

There's enough online to introduce kids to programming. And there's enough materials available to introduce a kid to Latin.

 

 

[ElizaG]

After the first two years of Latin, students spend almost 100% of their time reading and translating ancient literature.   Very little time is spent creating or composing new Latin sentences.   While there is a tremendous amount of creativity in providing a new translation aimed at non-Latin readers (i.e. How would Cicero have said this, if he spoke English),  high school or even college level students spend very little time doing this:  their objective is:  provide the most literal translation of Cicero, no matter how clunky that may sound in English, and the "correct" literal translation is surprisingly objective.

 

This depends on which model of classical studies you're following -- the modern one based on philology and knowledge of ancient cultures, or the older one based on cultivating eloquence.   

 

Either way, though, the underlying objective of studying Latin and Greek has always been to improve the graduate's ability to think, write, and speak in whatever language(s) he or she will be using to communicate with other people.   This is a very different thing from learning to tell machines what to do.   For one thing, the former involves expanding our understanding of human qualities, and the latter ultimately involves reducing everything to quantities.   

 

As I understand it, programming is almost the complete opposite:  programmers spend all of their time creating new things, they rarely spend much time reading other programs, except to learn how to interact with the programs they themselves are creating.  And there usually is not one way to do things, there is substantial leeway, and a lot of room for subjectivity in terms of what is best, or the "right way" to do things.

I'm not so sure.  The ones I know seem to spend a large proportion of their time working on existing code -- e.g., collaborating on projects, fixing bugs, making improvements, going back and taking out said improvements when it turns out they broke something important.   ;)  Depending on the task at hand, the "reading" part, in which they try to get a solid idea of what's going on and why, might end up taking a lot more time than the "creating."  

 

There are many different levels of skill & responsibility, of course, but I think this applies to some extent at all levels.   As the blogger put it in the post IsabelC linked to above, "one bad programmer can easily create two new jobs a year." 

[Leav97]

After the first two years of Latin, students spend almost 100% of their time reading and translating ancient literature.   Very little time is spent creating or composing new Latin sentences.   While there is a tremendous amount of creativity in providing a new translation aimed at non-Latin readers (i.e. How would Cicero have said this, if he spoke English),  high school or even college level students spend very little time doing this:  their objective is:  provide the most literal translation of Cicero, no matter how clunky that may sound in English, and the "correct" literal translation is surprisingly objective.

 

As I understand it, programming is almost the complete opposite:  programmers spend all of their time creating new things, they rarely spend much time reading other programs, except to learn how to interact with the programs they themselves are creating.  And there usually is not one way to do things, there is substantial leeway, and a lot of room for subjectivity in terms of what is best, or the "right way" to do things.

 

There is also a fair amount of looking at other programming.  Both to find code that already solves your problem and to find better ways of writing existing programs.

[angela in ohio]

As I understand it, programming is almost the complete opposite:  programmers spend all of their time creating new things, they rarely spend much time reading other programs, except to learn how to interact with the programs they themselves are creating.  And there usually is not one way to do things, there is substantial leeway, and a lot of room for subjectivity in terms of what is best, or the "right way" to do things.

 

Dd spends a lot of time at work with code written by others. In order to create new programs in her arena (vision processing, robotics, artificial intelligence, etc.) she has to work within existing frameworks. Her Latin, logic, and diagramming background (imho) prepared her for this so well that she was tasked with creating a document to show the structure of existing programs which will be used by many other programmers and researchers. I know she pores over many lines of others' code, because she comes home with hilarious stories of the jokes researchers at other university labs bury in the code. :D

 

I agree with pp that Latin cannot be replaced with programming. My computer girl had AP Latin. :) Programming is an application of the skills she learned in logic and Latin in high schoo; my other dc may choose other applications of those skills, but the Latin and logic remain non-negotiable. :)