ACT & Compass test at age twelve or thirteen?

[mliss]

Or university classes without testing?

 

Here is the back story.  

Last year DD (11 1/2) started taking one art class per semester at the community college and, after a bit of a rocky start due to lack of organizational skills and unfamiliarity with non-homeschooling education, suddenly everything clicked and she is doing tremendously well.  The community college has a very good art department (a greater variety of offerings than some universities I’ve looked at) and now that DD has proved she can keep up with the classes she is free to take almost any class she’s interested in.

 

DS (9 1/2) will start his first class at the community college in a month, 3D Graphics and Design, and we’re looking at Introduction to Programming in the spring.  The community college does not have a great variety of offerings in computer and technology classes and at the rate DS is going in math and computer programming there might not be anything interesting for him by the time he’s twelve or thirteen.  (Just typing that makes me panic.)

 

So here’s the problem: I feel like we need to relocate (my dad was in a car accident last year, cognitively he hasn’t fully recovered and I feel like I should be closer to home) and the city I’m considering only has a university, not a community college, so both children would have to take both the Compass and ACT in order to be accepted.  I explained this to DD and she told me that if we move she wants to take “that test†as soon as possible so she can take art classes.  She “likes being with people that are likeminded and think about art a lot†and I believe she would feel a significant void if her art classes were taken away from her.  DS is fine for now with his online classes (YouthDigital, QuickStudyLabs electronics and Fun Programming) but I don’t know how long I can keep him challenged without outside help.

 

But if we move I just don’t know what to do about the ACT!  Both children excel in their areas of interest and are working at or ahead of grade level in some subjects (DD in reading comprehension and grammar and DS in math) but neither are ready for the ACT.  Could I teach to the test for a year or two and get them to narrowly pass just so they can take their classes of interest?  I’m not interested in having them pursue full time college or degree seeking, but just getting the two of them into the educational opportunities they crave.  Is there even the remote chance anyone would let a couple of kids take one class a semester without taking the ACT?

 

I’m totally stressed out about this.  For years it’s been an uphill battle trying to find resources for my children, now we’re doing well at the community college and I would get this overwhelming feeling we need to move next year   :confused1: Even my DH isn’t sure I haven’t lost it. 

 

 

 

[Mike in SA]

I believe teaching to any test is a mistake.  Better off teaching the material in depth, as a regular course.  Take a practice ACT if you want, just to see where their deficiencies lie, but teach the material properly.

 

If there is a class at the college that you really want to take, speak with the professor about auditing.  Many will be happy to take on a young auditor, provided they are ready for the course content.  The cost is usually lower, and you normally don't have to be a fully admitted student.

[Dana]

You could also ask instructors at the cc to be references to the university.

[TCB]

I think you may be surprised about how well they will do on the ACT. My dd took it at age 12 and received a sufficiently high score that she would have qualified for the state uni nearby. Of course, she hasn't done all the required courses, so wouldn't be able to start college, but I think they would consider her for a course because of her score. I would try it now, at least for your dd. She can take it again if necessary, once she has a feel for it after doing the first one. I did not prepare my dd in any way for the test, other than showing her how to use a basic calculator and telling her there would be things on the test she had never seen before and not to panic.

[mliss]

I believe teaching to any test is a mistake.  Better off teaching the material in depth, as a regular course.  Take a practice ACT if you want, just to see where their deficiencies lie, but teach the material properly.

 

If there is a class at the college that you really want to take, speak with the professor about auditing.  Many will be happy to take on a young auditor, provided they are ready for the course content.  The cost is usually lower, and you normally don't have to be a fully admitted student.

 

If I taught to the test, and then DD passed, I would still continue teaching the material in depth and then have her retake the ACT when she is older.

But do you think the university would really let DD and DS audit a course without taking the ACT?  If so, that would be great.  I will ask the university admissions department when we go up in a few weeks.  

 

 

 

You could also ask instructors at the cc to be references to the university.

 

I'm certain I could find instructors to be references.  Great idea.

 

 

 

 

I think you may be surprised about how well they will do on the ACT. My dd took it at age 12 and received a sufficiently high score that she would have qualified for the state uni nearby. Of course, she hasn't done all the required courses, so wouldn't be able to start college, but I think they would consider her for a course because of her score. I would try it now, at least for your dd. She can take it again if necessary, once she has a feel for it after doing the first one. I did not prepare my dd in any way for the test, other than showing her how to use a basic calculator and telling her there would be things on the test she had never seen before and not to panic.

 

Thanks.  I'm feeling inspired, and not so crazy about possibly attempting this.  

A few weeks ago I printed some of the Compass reading comprehension and grammar questions and DD thought they were easy to answer - it's math she needs to work on (not that she would mind now that I finally found a math curriculum she enjoys).  I have the Real ACT Prep Guide in my Amazon wish list and I think I'll purchase it, have DD go through a practice test and see how she does.  However, if any one else has any additional advice or experience with a similar situation it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dmmetler]

My DD hasn't taken the real ACT yet, but I had her do a practice one, with each section limited to 30 minutes, as practice for the EXPLORE, and she scored well enough that, had it been a real test, she would have placed into college level math and English at the local state U at age 8. She audited her first college course at age 8, but hasn't taken any for credit yet.

Getting her in to audit was simply a matter of having a professor who would go to bat for her. The college she's auditing at has a "lifelong learners program" designed for senior citizens, and her professor made a case that it also should apply to a very young student, so she is able to audit classes with professor approval on a space-available basis for next to nothing (so far, she's only done them via distance learning, because it's about 8 hours from our home).

[kiana]

I think your idea of having her do a practice test and see how she does is a good one. Does your library have a prep book? One of my friends prepped for the SAT with a library book.

 

In the meantime, it looks like these sample ACTs are free -- http://www.mhpracticeplus.com/act.php

[Barbara H]

I would suggest they each keep a portfolio of their work from these previous classes and a copy of the syllabus. Then when you move they should set up to meet with a professor in the department - art or computer science and ask for advice. They may help them sign up for credit or offer an audit situation. There may be other opportunities such as conferences or workshops as well.

 

I wouldn't sweat the ACT. If it ends up being a requirement there probably won't be a minimum score attached to take classes as a nondegree student.

[KarenNC]

My daughter took both the ACT and the SAT at 12 (one as part of Duke TIP and one to see if she could qualify for the SET program), and scored very well. Her verbal scores well outstripped her math, but that wasn't surprising as she was in pre-algebra :). We're doing the ACT ongoing as our yearly testing, since it qualifies and the SAT doesn't.

 

I'd give her the practice ACT under as close to test conditions as possible to see how she does. Our local library has free online test prep options including free practice tests. Check with the university to see if there is a minimum score for the specific subsections or just the composite and whether they would consider the subsets separately for specific courses (say, just the verbal if it's a humanities class). Check to see if they want to see the writing score, as that is an optional part of the test. Working with a prep book just to get an idea of the idiosyncrasies of the test. The science section, in particular, is a bit different.

 

I would also go the portfolio and recommendations from previous professors route.

[mliss]

My DD hasn't taken the real ACT yet, but I had her do a practice one, with each section limited to 30 minutes, as practice for the EXPLORE, and she scored well enough that, had it been a real test, she would have placed into college level math and English at the local state U at age 8. She audited her first college course at age 8, but hasn't taken any for credit yet.

Getting her in to audit was simply a matter of having a professor who would go to bat for her. The college she's auditing at has a "lifelong learners program" designed for senior citizens, and her professor made a case that it also should apply to a very young student, so she is able to audit classes with professor approval on a space-available basis for next to nothing (so far, she's only done them via distance learning, because it's about 8 hours from our home).

 

DD audited her first art class at the community college but it didn't occur to me to pursue an audit at the university.  I'm hoping the university will consider it as an option. 

(Oh, and dmmetler, I have to admit I'm a bit of a fan of yours.  I'm new to the board but so far have very much enjoyed reading about your educational journey with your daughter.  Although I'm glad that at my house it's art and computer programing and not snakes  :laugh:  )

 

 

 

I think your idea of having her do a practice test and see how she does is a good one. Does your library have a prep book? One of my friends prepped for the SAT with a library book.

 

In the meantime, it looks like these sample ACTs are free -- http://www.mhpracticeplus.com/act.php

 

Thanks for the link to the sample ACTs.  I thought I Googled "ACT test questions/samples" but somehow I didn't find that website.  The next few days will be busy but I'll have DD start working through the test questions next week.

 

 

 

I would suggest they each keep a portfolio of their work from these previous classes and a copy of the syllabus. Then when you move they should set up to meet with a professor in the department - art or computer science and ask for advice. They may help them sign up for credit or offer an audit situation. There may be other opportunities such as conferences or workshops as well.

 

I wouldn't sweat the ACT. If it ends up being a requirement there probably won't be a minimum score attached to take classes as a nondegree student.

 

I have an art portfolio for DD, and I recently put together a resume of sorts for DS with photos of his soldering, 3D animation projects, etc. as well as a list of his online classes and completed tutorials.  However, I did not think to keep copies of DD's class syllabi.  In fact, I recently put one in the trash  :glare:   I will be certain to save them from now on.

 

 

A big thanks to everyone that took the time to respond.  In a few weeks we'll visit the university, DS and DD have individual campus tours already scheduled, and now, thanks to the help I've received from the WTM community I'll have coherent questions to ask the admissions department.  I'm feeling so hopeful  :hurray:

[8filltheheart]

I am not as optimistic for your opportunities for enrolling in a university w/o test scores as other posters have suggested.   That is not our experience at all.  CCs are completely different beasts than universitities.  It is also not unusual for academcially advanced 12 yr olds to take the ACT or SAT and score higher than the vast majority of test takers.   I have had 2 kids take the ACT around that age and score significantly higher than the avg high school student.

 

But, to the core question, every university our kids have DE over the yrs has required the student to meet all admission criteria for DE which are typically higher standards than for general freshman admissions.  We have run into a situation where a student was not allowed to DE at the university level w/o a minimum ACT score of a 28 while entering freshman score requirements were only around a 21.

 

I am ignorant of all things art dept.   But, for computer science courses, I fail to see how a student could have surpassed all computer programming and technology classes and not do well on the ACT. ???

 

Universities also do not typically accept the Compass test.   That is a CC approach to qualifying for courses.   ACT and SAT scores plus transcripts are more university typical.   (this is the approach we have had to take with 3 different universities in 3 different states.)

[Dmmetler]

Do you have any art schools in your area? I know of a couple homeschooled kids who started taking art classes at the college of art here (with adults) in their mid-teens. Art school admissions don't generally require test scores. I know you can use the state DE scholarship there starting in Jr. Year. Online works OK for some subjects, but I question whether it would work for art.

 

For computer programming, there are a ton of online options, and I'd also look for local professional user groups. My DH has had colleagues who were not even out of high school yet on specific projects because the kid impressed someone at a local meeting and that person had money to add people to their project available, which can be a great way to build a resume and earn money for college.

[mliss]

But, to the core question, every university our kids have DE over the yrs has required the student to meet all admission criteria for DE which are typically higher standards than for general freshman admissions.  We have run into a situation where a student was not allowed to DE at the university level w/o a minimum ACT score of a 28 while entering freshman score requirements were only around a 21.

 

I am ignorant of all things art dept.   But, for computer science courses, I fail to see how a student could have surpassed all computer programming and technology classes and not do well on the ACT. ???

 

Universities also do not typically accept the Compass test.   That is a CC approach to qualifying for courses.   ACT and SAT scores plus transcripts are more university typical.   (this is the approach we have had to take with 3 different universities in 3 different states.)

 

Our CC offers so few programming and technology classes, and the offerings they have are so basic I think DS would quickly run out of options even if he couldn't do well on the ACT.  However, we live in an artsy town so the art department is completely different and quite extensive.

 

The university I'm looking at requires both the Compass and ACT so DS and DD would have to take both.  Here are the university's  requirements for home school students:

Composite score of at least 21 on the ACT

Math score of at least 18 on ACT

English score of at least 18 on the ACT

 

Passing score on the GED or

Completion of the COMPASS tests in Math, Reading, Writing Skills and Writing Essay

 

There is also conditional admission with a composite score of at least 20 on the ACT, math score of at least 12 and English score of at least 12.  I'm not sure in which circumstances "conditional admission" would apply but I will ask when we tour the campus.

 

 

 

Do you have any art schools in your area? I know of a couple homeschooled kids who started taking art classes at the college of art here (with adults) in their mid-teens. Art school admissions don't generally require test scores. I know you can use the state DE scholarship there starting in Jr. Year. Online works OK for some subjects, but I question whether it would work for art.

 

For computer programming, there are a ton of online options, and I'd also look for local professional user groups. My DH has had colleagues who were not even out of high school yet on specific projects because the kid impressed someone at a local meeting and that person had money to add people to their project available, which can be a great way to build a resume and earn money for college.

 

We do have an art school in my area; it's a very good art school.  It costs $9,000 - $14,000+ per semester for a full time student, $2,672 for one class (4 credits)  :svengo:   The state university I'm looking at costs half as much.

 

Online computer programming options are definitely out there for DS and I think we'll take a few years exploring those options before I start looking seriously at enrolling him in the university.  However, if in a few years DS were to decide he wanted more advanced classes taught by human beings (which I suspect will be by the time he is 13 years old) then I'd already have resources lined up.  Or at least a cache of university students I could pay to mentor him, which is not a resource I have now.

 

 

Oh, and has anyone noticed how difficult it is a compose a coherent post when you have a child on each side of you continually chattering about the smilies and how the drooling smiley has puddle stability.  After that both children start theorizing on how that works and wondering if a constant  state of evaporation maintains the puddle at a consistent size ...  

:drool5:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

But, for computer science courses, I fail to see how a student could have surpassed all computer programming and technology classes and not do well on the ACT. ???

 

This was my first thought.

[8filltheheart]

Our CC offers so few programming and technology classes, and the offerings they have are so basic I think DS would quickly run out of options even if he couldn't do well on the ACT. However, we live in an artsy town so the art department is completely different and quite extensive.

 

The university I'm looking at requires both the Compass and ACT so DS and DD would have to take both. Here are the university's requirements for home school students:

Composite score of at least 21 on the ACT

Math score of at least 18 on ACT

English score of at least 18 on the ACT

 

Passing score on the GED or

Completion of the COMPASS tests in Math, Reading, Writing Skills and Writing Essay

 

There is also conditional admission with a composite score of at least 20 on the ACT, math score of at least 12 and English score of at least 12. I'm not sure in which circumstances "conditional admission" would apply but I will ask when we tour the campus.

I think you are misreading the info. Those are all different options. They do not have to take the Compass and the ACT. W/o seeing the full website, it us hard to know how to interpret what you posted. But bc the GED was mentioned, I think you are posting admission criteria, not DE. Like I posted earlier, we have had situations where what you posted is true for incoming freshman, but not DE students. My ds had to have a 28 in order to DE at one school.

 

Typically conditional admission is tied to GPA and probationary enrollment period.

[mliss]

I think you are misreading the info. Those are all different options. They do not have to take the Compass and the ACT. W/o seeing the full website, it us hard to know how to interpret what you posted. But bc the GED was mentioned, I think you are posting admission criteria, not DE. Like I posted earlier, we have had situations where what you posted is true for incoming freshman, but not DE students. My ds had to have a 28 in order to DE at one school.

 

Typically conditional admission is tied to GPA and probationary enrollment period.

 

I am posting admission criteria.  I looked at dual enrollment and most DE programs seemed a bit more controlling than I'd like (the student would only be allowed to take classes that would fulfill high school requirements).  Also, interestingly enough, with other universities I looked at, most appeared to have a  minimum age requirement for dual enrollment but sometimes the age to be admitted to the university wasn't as well established.  Just my impression as I poked around looking at different universities and colleges.  But I could be wrong.

[8filltheheart]

I am posting admission criteria.  I looked at dual enrollment and most DE programs seemed a bit more controlling than I'd like (the student would only be allowed to take classes that would fulfill high school requirements).  Also, interestingly enough, with other universities I looked at, most appeared to have a  minimum age requirement for dual enrollment but sometimes the age to be admitted to the university wasn't as well established.  Just my impression as I poked around looking at different universities and colleges.  But I could be wrong.

 

I just wrote a description of our process on the high school board a couple of days ago. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/523092-so-early-graduation-vs-extra-classesstudy/?p=5819720

 

Policies are typically not set in stone, but they are going to want justification for allowing extenuating circumstances.  What you are describing, no testing, etc, in my mind, would not grant you an exception.   My ds was only allowed to DE at the university bc he had no other options for meeting his academic needs. Taking classes fulfilling high school requirements is one of those sticky areas where you really need to understand the language being used.   Some states distinguish between DE and concurrent enrollment and advanced scholars.   (my ds, in this state, is actually considered an advanced scholar, not a DE student.)

 

The linked thread explains quite a bit about how we have approached this issue.