How to Read a Book vs modern lit analysis

[Hunter]

Do you think How to Read a Book is outdated now, or a classic that is still current?

 

Do you think modern AP literary analysis is superior? Or merely inevitable to please modern colleges?

 

Or do you think How to Read a Book is still THE way to read a book?

 

TWTM 1st edition used How to Read a Book, but was it the second edition that switched over to The Well Educated Mind? What do you think of that change?

 

Are the methods in The Well Educated Mind, modern, exact and complete enough, if you choose the AP type analysis?

[Courtney_Ostaff]

I favor How to Read A Book.  I have found that the concept of linking the origin of ideas to authors, and finding definitive authors in the field you're learning about and reading their work to be the best possible way to learn about something.  Don't get me wrong, for those initial steps to reading difficult work, The Well Educated Mind is excellent, but to go beyond that, How to Read A Book is better, in my humble opinion. Since you asked.  :001_smile: 

 

Caveat: I know nothing about the AP tests, or the literary analysis therein.  I do know that I really dislike the type of literary analysis common in undergraduate school.  

[Hunter]

I think this e-mail address might still be current for the How to Read a Book study guide.

http://www.staa-homeschool.com/index.php/books-by-subject/340-language-arts

[Hunter]

Outline of How to Read a Book

http://www.oxfordtutorials.com/How%20to%20Read%20a%20Book%20Outline.htm

[Hunter]

I favor How to Read A Book. I have found that the concept of linking the origin of ideas to authors, and finding definitive authors in the field you're learning about and reading their work to be the best possible way to learn about something. Don't get me wrong, for those initial steps to reading difficult work, The Well Educated Mind is excellent, but to go beyond that, How to Read A Book is better, in my humble opinion. Since you asked. :001_smile:

 

Caveat: I know nothing about the AP tests, or the literary analysis therein. I do know that I really dislike the type of literary analysis common in undergraduate school.

Thank you for responding.

 

I just don't understand why the AP type of literary analysis is taking over in classical education. There are a lot of modern educational practices I don't understand though.

[Courtney_Ostaff]

Thank you for responding.

 

I just don't understand why the AP type of literary analysis is taking over in classical education. There are a lot of modern educational practices I don't understand though.

 

I don't keep current with classical education trends, and I'm not sure what the AP type of literary analysis is, but if you're curious about modern educational practices, I highly recommend reading some Diana Ravitch. 

[8filltheheart]

I actually think that both work well together. I love Adler's ideas regarding annotation and owning what you read. Lit analysis takes your thoughts and allows you to use your notes and thoughts to investigate what more might be being communicated.

[Hunter]

I used the link above and already received my study guide. You just use your paypal account to send $6.00 to the e-mail address and receive your pdf book and pdf 12 week schedule soon after. It took about an hour for me.

 

I had this study guide way back when it was first published. I'm glad to have it again, and so quickly and cheaply.

 

I'm going to try and finish this book and study guide by following the 12 week schedule.

[Hunter]

I don't keep current with classical education trends, and I'm not sure what the AP type of literary analysis is, but if you're curious about modern educational practices, I highly recommend reading some Diana Ravitch. 

 

I don't have time to read up on modern educational practices as a whole. I just realized, though, that I have seen a big–even though gradual–shift in how students are taught to read the Great Books. Or more, maybe less Great Books are being read, and more classics are being analyzed? And it's only natural to use different methods with different types of books?

[Hunter]

I actually think that both work well together. I love Adler's ideas regarding annotation and owning what you read. Lit analysis takes your thoughts and allows you to use your notes and thoughts to investigate what more might be being communicated.

 

Do you find time to teach students all these methods, and then apply them all to all the books read? Or do you suggest different methods for different books?

[Lori D.]

Do you think How to Read a Book is outdated now, or a classic that is still current?

 

Do you think modern AP literary analysis is superior? Or merely inevitable to please modern colleges?

 

Or do you think How to Read a Book is still THE way to read a book?

 

TWTM 1st edition used How to Read a Book, but was it the second edition that switched over to The Well Educated Mind? What do you think of that change?

 

Are the methods in The Well Educated Mind, modern, exact and complete enough, if you choose the AP type analysis?

 

re: How to Read a Book

I personally don't care for Adler's rather scientific / step-by-step approach; I think there is a real danger of turning Literature into a "formula" or a recipe, and missing the mystery and metaphor...

 

But then, I am very literature / arts / metaphor-based, and pretty much a "natural" when it comes to Literature. ;) I can see why, in contrast, STEM folk might feel a bit safer stepping into the waters of Literature and literary analysis while holding onto the "floatee" of How to Read a Book…  :tongue_smilie:

 

Where I think Adler's approach can be a bit dangerous is if it causes you to approach Literature with a sort of "problem-solving" and checklist mentality. Alan Jacob's book, The Pleasures of Reading in an Age of Distraction, would be a nice balance to Adler. Here's an excerpt from Lauren Winner's "Books & Culture" review/response to Jacobs' book (whole article here), which gives a sense of the possible danger from taking Adler's approach too far in a certain direction:

 

"The true enemy of reading is a sibilant voice that begins telling us, around about middle school, that reading is something we do, not because we enjoy it, but because it will make us somehow better… we should read a book the way we take a vitamin.

 

[Alan] Jacobs' The Pleasures of Reading is, above all, a brief for enjoyment. Jacobs reminds us that most of us learned to read by being read to as children… in the lap of a loving parent, grandparent, or aunt. Reading thus 'starts for many of us in a warm cocoon of security, accompnaied by an unassailable sense of being loved.' But it is 'gradually and inexorably' turned into 'a site of stress.' We have to read what we are told (explicitly or implicitly) to read, and we begin to think that reading is about self-improvement, not pleasure, let alone love.

 

Among the culprits Jacobs blames for this are books like Mortimer Adler's 1940 How to Read a Book. Such instructive manuals have taught a large portion of the American reading public to be suspicious of books that aren't in some way 'certifiably good for you'. Jacobs wants you to read the books that delight you… Jacobs wants people to recover the ability to practice 'deep attention' inside a book -- not to read hastily because one is reading what one has to for school, or because one is note-taking for information; not to read distractedly, with half one's thoughts elsewhere; but to read with sustained focus, to allow one's self to become absorbed by a book. And the deep attention one cultivates in reading allows one to practice deep attention in other settings too... Finally, Jacobs is writing about joy. He wants us to find in reading, not anxious 'reading up', but pleasure, whimsy. He wants the practice of reading to be a practice of joy…"

 

Just something to keep in mind in using ANY literary analysis materials… :)

 

 

re: post-modern interpretations of lit. analysis

I don't buy into the post-modern and deconstructionist literary analysis approaches sometimes taken in colleges, because, as a Christian, I believe Literature, like art, is *meant* to speak to us and we are to find Truth and Beauty in it, and apply it to our lives. I don't buy into the "paint for paint's sake" theories of art, nor do I buy into the idea that "the text is all there is" theory of literary analysis, and that the work has nothing to say beyond the subjective view of the reader. Clearly, that is JMO. :)

 

 

re: WEM literary analysis

I liked the less structured/less formalized way WEM approaches literature, although I would never be able to follow her method as written -- reading the work 3 times, annotating as you go… That is just not how *I* can do literature. I think SWB's brief article "What is Literary Analysis and When to Teach It" is a very helpful starting point: "[Literary Analysis is] Understanding the techniques that make a literary work effective, identifying them in the books you read, and writing a brief essay explaining what you've identified." I esp. like her list of questions in the article -- very helpful in moving from summaries/narration toward thinking about what the work has to say.

 

What SWB doesn't include in that article, that I DO think is the "unspoken" part of literature and literary analysis is taking what you see in the work and seeing how you might apply to your own life. I wish Janice in NJ still had that FABULOUS series of videos of her teaching a diagramming lesson to her students using the first sentence from The Hobbit -- it went from diagramming, to analysis, to personal application -- which is really what it's all about! (There were youtube links in Janice's thread, "A peek into a language arts session at our house", but alas, no more :( ).

 

Anyways, the point is, we don't just stop at finding literary elements of theme, irony, conflict, allusion, foreshadowing, or mood…  We go on to wrestle (in our own thoughts or in discussion with others) WHY those elements are there; what are they doing; what do they point to; how do they connect us to the work; etc.

 

 

re: AP literary analysis

Can't help you there. We did not go that route, and have no idea of how AP classes teach literary analysis, nor what the AP tests are looking for.

 

 

helpful resource

I really liked Leisha Myers' Windows to the World for a gentle and enjoyable guidance through the process of literary analysis -- annotation, then how to look at what you annotated to start seeing something bigger going on in the work, and then how to write an analysis, using what you saw via your annotations as support, and then to go over literary elements and what they add to a work.

 

Don't know if WttW would be helpful for AP, but between WttW and the ways we did Literature and literary analysis here, DSs were very well set for their college Writing courses in which they had to read Literature and do reader response papers and analysis essays. Don't know if that counts… ;)

 

Hunter: Thanks for raising those interesting questions! In case anyone is interested, this was a fascinating thread from several years ago: Why is Literary Analysis Important?

 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

PS -- Hunter, you might get more discussion on this topic by posting it either on the General Board, or the High School Board, which will get more eyes of homeschoolers who have experience in with AP and/or high school literary analysis. :)

[Hunter]

Lori, thank you for these links!

 

I reread some of TWTM 1st edition today, and I see the recommendation of Reading Strands in the 10th grade. I think that covers the type of literary analysis I'm not sure is all that important to cover. So it has been there, I think, right from the 1st edition.

 

I had a lot of good resources to teach literary analysis, but I gave them all away. I just wasn't using them.

 

I'm happily working my way through How to Read a Book, and will see what I want to do when I finish that.

 

I didn't post on the high school board on purpose, as I wanted to talk general philosophy with people who had some distance from what is being done in modern PS right now.

[mom31257]

Following.

[Hunter]

I'm making some good and steady progress though the book. I'm really glad to have the study guide! I need it. I feel like I shouldn't, but I do.

[yvonne]

I wish Janice in NJ still had that FABULOUS series of videos of her teaching a diagramming lesson to her students using the first sentence from The Hobbit -- it went from diagramming, to analysis, to personal application -- which is really what it's all about!

 

I loved those videos, too!!  I wonder if she'd repost them if you asked her, Hunter. They were a wonderful example of "doing" lit analysis with students!

[Lori D.]

I'm making some good and steady progress though the book. I'm really glad to have the study guide!

 

Glad your personal studies are going well! :)

[Hunter]

Today I'm reading volume 10 of the 1922 Journey through Bookland series. We TALK ABOUT literature differently now. I'm just...I'm not sure we are talking about it better, now.

 

The books themselves are lasting, but we aren't talking as much about the INDIVIDUAL and lasting ideas in each one, as we are practicing the currently used LONG lists of vocabulary used to describe the parts that are in almost ALL of the books. In the end, I feel like we are only really studying a modern and unproven idea, and glossing over the book itself that has proven itself.

[Lori D.]

Today I'm reading volume 10 of the 1922 Journey through Bookland series. We TALK ABOUT literature differently now. I'm just...I'm not sure we are talking about it better, now.

 

The books themselves are lasting, but we aren't talking as much about the INDIVIDUAL and lasting ideas in each one, as we are practicing the currently used LONG lists of vocabulary used to describe the parts that are in almost ALL of the books. In the end, I feel like we are only really studying a modern and unproven idea, and glossing over the book itself that has proven itself.

 

 

Hmmm… I have not read any of Journeys Through Bookland, so I don't know what they advocate in discussing Literature… BUT, I have to say that everything I've read on these Boards suggests that reading the classics / classical education / Great Books study is NOT AT ALL about vocabulary lists and checklists of finding parts (literary elements??) of books.

 

Learning about the author and his/her times/location is a big part of a Great Books study, to try and understand the history, culture, worldviews, the social / political / economic climate, the events and circumstances of the author's life, that make up the background to the "birth" of the specific book. Very helpful to also know a bit about some of the author's OTHER works (for comparison, or extension of specific ideas important to the author), as well as learn a little something about contemporaneous authors, or works/authors that the author was writing in opposition to...

 

As I understand it -- and what we tried to do -- was to dig deep into the work to hear what it had to say to gain a better understanding of our own natures, of others, and of the world in which we live. To think about the work, the themes, what was important to the author. By reading deeply, thoughtfullly, critically, and discussing/analyzing the Great Works, we have some way of seeking Truth and Beauty, to figure out those big "how" and "why" questions of life. And hopefully, a good study of Literature encourages us to want to explore more in MANY areas of life... To enter the "Great Conversation" that has been going on for thousands of years through The Great Books.

 

At least, that's what we were shooting for with our Literature and literary analysis -- and sometimes actually managed to have as the result of our reading and discussing of Literature… ;)

 

 

I do agree that sometimes literary analysis (like any school subject) can devolve into a kind of "checklist" mentality, rather than learning the basics as a stepping stone into deeper learning and understanding.

 

My DH is taking a college course in Literary Analysis right now, as a requirement for getting his Bachelor's. The first section of the class was all on poetry, and, yes, they did learn literary elements used in poems -- BUT, with the goal of realizing that once you understand the structure of the poem, you are able to more deeply enter into it and see what the author is doing and saying by working within, or working against, that structure -- which is one way an author can be "telling" you something.

 

My DH was saying that right after the class on types of poetic meter, one of the women in his class was reading Romeo & Juliet for a different class, and a major lightbulb went on when she was reading the part where Juliet's nurse is SAYING one thing, but the meter structure reveals her thoughts are of the OPPOSITE view. Without understanding of meter and being able to pick that out, this young woman would never have caught the subtle and deep conflict that Shakespeare wrote into the nurse's character. :)

 

From there, you could think about / talk about how our own words do/don't match up with our opinions and thoughts; is that ever good; are there other examples in the work, and if so what does Shakespeare seem to think of that idea… etc.  â€¦ Conversely, stopping at the point of identifying what form of meter the play was written in really doesn't go much of anywhere.

 

 

But I digress. Wishing you well! Warmly, Lori D.

[Hunter]

I can see how all these literary terms CAN be useful, but when we choose to teach them all to the point of mastery at the junior and senior high level, what gets skipped to accomplish this?

 

When we actually add up the number of hours a year, we have to devote towards literature, I don't know how to read the works, talk about the big ideas, and also cover ALL those terms to mastery. There are SO many of them. Doing a super quick introduction of the terms during a poetry unit, was my plan. It was interesting to hear that your husband's class introduced them with poetry. But then I was planning on dropping the requirement to USE those terms, or require MEMORIZATION of them.

 

There is so much that traditionally was college material, and sometimes only for students majoring in the subject, and now the topics are required in high school, middle school, and sometimes even Kindergarten.

 

It seems like with each decade more and more terms were used to discuss literature, with younger and younger students.

 

I do see how these terms can be useful tools. I do! BUT...I'm trying to figure out...I'm not sure what I'm trying to figure out. :lol:

[Lori D.]

I can see how all these literary terms CAN be useful, but when we choose to teach them all to the point of mastery at the junior and senior high level, what gets skipped to accomplish this?

 

When we actually add up the number of hours a year, we have to devote towards literature, I don't know how to read the works, talk about the big ideas, and also cover ALL those terms to mastery.

 

Very gently, perhaps you are over-estimating how much time is really being spent on teaching/learning literary terms?? Or how much time to devote to it?

 

Literary terms took very little of our total Literature time. In 7th and 8th grades, we spent about 10 minutes a day, 2x/week going over Figuratively Speaking (7th grade), and then Prose & Poetry (8th grade). We just did one literary term per day, out loud, together. No tests. No memorization. Nothing formal/structured. Just a casual, "Now that we know what that term is, let's see if we notice that term in our reading…"

 

So 20 minutes a week for about 20 weeks in each of 2 school years was a grand total of about 6-7 hours per school year on literary terms. That's about 12-14 hours TOTAL for grades 7-12, since once learned, we didn't really need to keep going back and re-covering literary terms...

 

Similarly with Vocabulary (new words in the reading), we didn't spend a lot of time with memorization, quizzes, etc. Just learned the word in context as we were reading together aloud. Move on.

 

What may help you figure out how MUCH to cover and in how much DEPTH is to focus on your audience. Are you teaching a 300-level college course? Probably not -- that's what my DH is taking, so it makes sense that they are going into that much depth. Are you teaching students who are at a BEGINNING Literature level? Then learn a few key terms, and spend most of your time getting them reading (do some aloud together in class), and guiding them in discussion -- modeling how to wrestle with the Literature, instead of trying to turn it into a math equation. ;)

 

 

There are SO many of them. Doing a super quick introduction of the terms during a poetry unit, was my plan. It was interesting to hear that your husband's class introduced them with poetry. But then I was planning on dropping the requirement to USE those terms, or require MEMORIZATION of them.

 

Really, there are only about a dozen literary terms at most that are heavily used and are really useful to understand. The rest you can always look up again, if needed… ;)

 

This is where I start seeing How to Read a Book, Reading Strands, WEM, or literature programs being misunderstood and mis-applied. The suggestions in these resources are to help guide us toward thinking about, understanding, and discussing what's in the Literature. Too often, people try and turn it into a "technique" or process -- they try and make "math fact memorization" sheets out of aspects of literature, because they aren't used to wrestling with something that doesn't have a one-to-one correlation, and can have many meanings packed into it -- often meanings that the author did not even realize could be there.

 

Literature is NOT a math equation like 2+2=4, or a scientific process like distillation. Science and math are great for facts and straight-forward processes. Science can explain how a heart works (blood vessel attachment, electrical impulses causing muscles to contract and pump blood, valves to prevent back-flow, etc.)

 

But science and math can NOT explain mysteries, the spirit/soul, emotions, and other non-factually-based parts of the human condition. Science cannot explain the essence of a person -- the "human heart". It takes the images, descriptions, poetry, stories, comparisons (similes and metaphors), and winding-road discussions of Literature to begin to help us catch a glimpse of mysteries: "The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing." -- Blaise Pascal.

 

We really miss what Literature is trying to point us towards if we focus on the elements of Literature, just as we miss the opportunity to be moved or inspired by a work of music if we focus on the musical notation...

 

Sorry -- I am rambling again. Just meant to send you hugs and best wishes as you work your way towards a good balance for you! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[sunnyday]

I was reading MCT's "Classics in the Classroom" last night and thought of this thread.

 

"Those literary terms, helpful though they be, are not what to do; reading the book is what to do."

"Any book worth its salt will provide you with the terms for its own interpretation."

"Classic authors do not write...[their books] hoping to be STUDIED."

"I do think that such terms should be one part of what students learn, but we need not deceive ourselves that such helpful concepts are the path to enlightenment. That path is left by the author within the book, and if we do not make ourselves transparent and take the author's path, then it is pointless to look for external assistance in understanding the book."

[Hunter]

I was reading MCT's "Classics in the Classroom" last night and thought of this thread.

 

"Those literary terms, helpful though they be, are not what to do; reading the book is what to do."

"Any book worth its salt will provide you with the terms for its own interpretation."

"Classic authors do not write...[their books] hoping to be STUDIED."

"I do think that such terms should be one part of what students learn, but we need not deceive ourselves that such helpful concepts are the path to enlightenment. That path is left by the author within the book, and if we do not make ourselves transparent and take the author's path, then it is pointless to look for external assistance in understanding the book."

Thank you! This sounds really good. I just asked the library to buy the book. I hope they do.