Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I'm glad you came back and posted this here . . . for posterity's sake! I couldn't stand knowing my post that Warriner's is a good fit for us was dangling at the end of the thread. I had to set the record straight! lol Thanks for sharing your current plans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Okay, so I'll add what is happening here, which is that ds is busy working on fiction about a dog. It is not his first 'dog fiction', so it is interesting to see the changes from previous dog fiction to now. His first a year or 2 ago was more like a fan fiction version of something he had been reading, with his dog hero very closely imitative of the character in the book he'd read. This time, his main dog character is clearly based on our own dog, with specifics of behavior and attitude so accurate that they do not fit the (different) breed he wanted for the hero of his story. I scrapped all my ideas about what writing programs and am letting him carry on with his story as long as he likes. This brings us at this time to all subjects but math being student propelled/initiated for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 PS Thanks for letting us all know that Warriner's may not be as fantastic as it at first seemed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Pen, Woodland Mist, et al. - thanks for posting your updates / projects. I continue to find much to think about in this thread :) I agree that the value of Warriner's comes from the models, not from the assignments. I have realized that - despite completing most of WWS1 - my student needs some work on his paragraphs and I like the sections of Warriner's that focus on paragraph. Unlike some other resources, the models and ideas presented don't seem "too young," if that makes sense. I am also looking forward to using the Writer's Craft portions, particularly as you get higher up in the series. I think (hope) that the discussion questions will facilitate close reading. This week, DS wrote a short paper about the Vikings based on a one-hour documentary. Day One: We watched the show. I gave him a storyboard template with six boxes, and we stopped the video approximately every 10 minutes. I also filled out the storyboard template, and I let him look at my notes after he had written his. Day Two: He used the notes to write a 300 word paper. Day Three (tomorrow): Revisions. Last week: An oral book report on Phineas Gage. Two weeks ago: He worked on descriptive writing. He had just finished reading The Diary of Anne Frank (and we visited her house over Thanksgiving weekend - loved that tie-in!). Using Anne's diary for inspiration, he wrote detailed descriptions about our living space and daily routines. We agreed beforehand to stay away from the diary aspect and to focus on description. After the New Year, I will have him do another research paper. Going forward, I am going to loop through writing about history, science and literature. I also plan to cycle through zooming out (longer papers and essays) and zooming in (the sentence and the paragraph). I do have WWS2 on pre-order. For some reason, it has not yet been released on Amazon.uk. minor edits for clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I agree that the value of Warriner's comes from the models, not from the assignments. I have realized that - despite completing most of WWS1 - my student needs some work on his paragraphs and I like the sections of Warriner's that focus on paragraph. Unlike some other resources, the models and ideas presented don't seem "too young," if that makes sense. This week, DS wrote a short paper about the Vikings based on a one-hour documentary. Day One: We watched the show. I gave him a storyboard template with six boxes, and we stopped the video approximately every 10 minutes. I also filled out the storyboard template, and I let him look at my notes after he had written his. Day Two: He used the notes to write a 300 word paper. Day Three (tomorrow): Revisions. The models being not "too young" makes a lot of sense! I wonder if it would work to use the models--perhaps the same ones, more than once and work out one's own assignments or even let the student do so. Storyboard template? That sounds interesting, but I am not sure if I am following what you did exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Pen, the storyboard template is a series of boxes. Each box is big enough for keywords and/or a small diagram. We made some stick figures with speech bubbles, for example. The template that I used had 6 boxes on one sheet of paper. Each box was 3.5 inches wide and 2 inches high. Below the box was a space for a caption. I can't seem to find the one that I downloaded, but here are some storyboard templates. This was a modification of an idea that I read about in Writing Across the Curriculum: Social Studies - State of Michigan. If you google the title that I italicized it will take you to a pdf. I don't know how to directly link to a pdf (?). BTW, the video that we used was Episode 2 of a three-part series. It might sound tedious to stop a show every ten minutes, but we watched Episode 1 without an assignment and we will do the same with Episode 3...so it didn't suck the joy out of the documentary (aside: BBC's Neil Oliver The Vikings - highly recommended!). With practice, he will be able to take notes without so much stopping. I know I said this before, but I do still intend to write something more about the Warriner's books. I now have all five courses of Composition Models plus the Advanced Course, and I can see how the series plays out. Time has just kept flying by ever since we got back from our Thanksgiving trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Penguin, Thank you for explaining the storyboards--that sounds interesting to try out. BTW, we saw a Nova film The Vikings which we also recommend. Well, I went ahead and got some of the Warriner's books! The composition models books are quite different than the composition parts of the grammar and composition books, it turns out. I got 3rd Course of the Models so I could compare with the 3rd course of the grammar book--though actually what I have is the 4th Course of the grammar as it turns out--but there is not much difference between the 2 grammar levels. The grammar and comp books are a much more complete language arts type course, but the sample models for writing are not as good, I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Ok, I sat down with the Warriner's Composition Models and Exercises: The First through the Fifth Course and Advanced Composition. I hope this run-through helps someone. There is no grammar instruction in this series. The grammar lessons are in the companion English Grammar and Composition Series. Throughout, you will find plenty of recognizable authors: Alex Haley, Joan Didion, James Joyce, Philip Roth, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, Mark Twain, Barbara Tuchman, John Steinbeck, James Thurber, Virginia Woolf... The First and Second Course have identical subsections: Finding Ideas The Paragraph Choosing Words Description Narration Exposition Third, Fourth and Fifth Course subsections: The Paragraph Description Narration Exposition Opinion and Persuasion Special Forms (Third and Fourth Course only) Writing About Literature (Fiction and Poetry) Beginning with the Third Course, Sentence Skills are interspersed. The Sentence Skills exercises use standard grammar terminology. The pattern of instruction is: A brief intro to the topic. A model. The Writer's Craft Now You Try It The models in the First through the Fifth course vary in length. Many of them are only a paragraph, but then again many of the lessons focus on the paragraph so this makes sense. Advanced Composition: A Book of Models for Writing is not a collection of the previous courses. It is a distinct book. All of the models in Advanced Composition: A Book of Models for Writing are several pages in length. The book is 600+ pages; at least twice as long as the others. The subsections are: Description Exposition Argument and Persuasion Narration The pattern of instruction is: Brief Intro to the Topic Model Analysis Questions on Content Vocabulary (just a list) Questions on Technique Techniques to Imitate Suggestions for Writing My opinion? I really like the models, the analysis, and the discussion questions. I agree with previous poster upthread that the assignments are just OK. I will have to tweak them or make up my own. The assignments draw heavily on personal experience, but I can see now that the models are works with strong authorial voices. Maybe the assignments do not bother me as much as they did at first. There seems to be a lot of cycling through the same concepts over and over, but maybe each time the topic gets a more advanced treatment (?). I have not read carefully enough to know. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Penguin, Yes! It helps a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 So, I decided to resurrect this thread. Wondering, are people still following the same plans as above? Or, if you have changed, to what? Has the writing without a curriculum thread resulted in any changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 This has been an amazing thread, I've learned so much from it. I'm starting to dream about writing instruction! So I said upthread that I would share some of my ideas for what materials to use to meet the goals I identified at each level. I think now is a good time for that. Keep in mind, this is all tentative, subject to change, and will be adapted to the child in question! But these are my thoughts of materials I might use with my 2nd child. Now that I've gained confidence and insight into the teaching of writing, I don't know that I'll use these exactly as written, or in their entirety, but I think they all have something to add. I'll also say that as I only have a current (early) 6th grader, I feel more confident about my ideas for 2nd-6th, and 7th-8th are much more vague, as I've not done that yet! Writing across the curriculum will happen intensively every year starting in 5th grade. 2nd grade - Current Goals: · Mechanics of writing: basic spelling & grammar · Oral Narration & Summaries · Writing 1-3 sentences about topics & books Resources: · LOE & Grammar Island · WWE 2 (we are doing two days at a time, an oral narration exercise and the written dictation) · Sentence Island 3rd grade Goals · Written narrations & summaries · Writing single paragraphs about topics & books Resources: · Writing & Rhetoric Fable & Narrative 1 (Narrative w/ Descriptive Elements) · WWE 3 (this will be doubled up and/or spread over two years) 4th Grade Goals: · Paragraphing Skills: Topic sentences w/ supporting details, unity, developing paragraphs, order & coherence within paragraphs Style and variety in sentences· Writing 2-3 paragraphs about topics & books Resources: · Paragraph Town · Killgallon Story Grammar for Elementary School · Writing & Rhetoric Narrative 2 & Chreia & Proverb (Narratives w/ description; Expository Essay) - this doesn't exist yet, but I like the looks of the first two, and may continue with this program 5th Grade Goals: · One-level outlines/Two level-outlines · Single-Source Reports · Compositions: Descriptive, Expository, Narrative · Basic literary analysis (combining summary + discussion) Resources: · Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide for Middle School · Writing & Rhetoric Refutation/Confirmation & Commonplace (Persuasive Essays) 6th Grade Goals: · Two-level outlines/Three level outlines · Rewriting from Outlines · Multi-source reports w/ citations · Beginning Essays · Strong Introductions & Conclusions · Continue with literary analysis: analyzing plot, character, theme, conflict, setting, etc. Resources · Essay Voyage · WWS 1 - modified, using our own topics, skipping the research section · Killgallon Grammar for Middle School · Writing & Rhetoric Ecomium/Vituperation & Comparison (Persuasive & Comparative Essays) 7th Grade Goals: · Developing a Thesis · Persuasive & Analytical Essays with an original thesis · Answering essay questions · Writing about literature Resources: · Lively Art of Writing · Breakfast on Mars · WWS 2 · Writing & Rhetoric Impersonation; Description (Descriptive Essays) 8th Grade Goals: · Persuasive & Analytical Essays with an original thesis · Answering Essay questions · Writing about literature Resources · Writing & Rhetoric Thesis; Attack/Defend a Law(Persuasive Essays) · WWS3 I'm glad you resurrected this thread, Pen - I thought it was awesome, and I want to take the time to read back through it. I do have a few updates to my "plan" above: First, my 2nd grader: we did a lot of grammar through analyzing her copywork, then I decided to go ahead and introduce Grammar Island. Well, she found it really boring, so after finishing the first two sections, I decided to just put it away for now, and wait on Sentence Island too. She knows the parts of speech and parts of a sentence, that is plenty for now. We've got about 10 weeks of WWE2 left, we'll finish that up - she doesn't love it, but the summary exercises are good for her - she loves to narrate, but is starting to "get it" about picking out only the main points for the summary. The big news with her is that we started W&R: Fable. We've done 3 lessons. She loves it, and so do I. What I really like is all the interesting discussion questions - the passages are pretty simple, but the level of discussion we've had about them has been really great. What she really likes about it is the variety - not doing the same thing every day. We're taking it slow, and I'm scribing the longer compositions for her. What I notice is that she is firmly in the stage still of needing to think and to write separately. When she writes, she is really focused on spelling correctly, and she has a hard time composing while she is writing. When I scribe, she is free to let her creative juices flow, and it's really fun to hear what she comes up with. So we're still doing lots of copywork, lots of spelling work to work on mechanics, and dictation, but she also really needs the deeper, thinking work that W&R offers. I'm feeling good about her writing at this point. As far as her future writing - taking off the grade level lables, I feel confident we'll continue with W&R, working at her pace and taking a break if we need to for maturing to happen. I think we'll also do WWE3, spread out over two years and/or between lessons of W&R. We'll probably try Sentence Island and the Mud books next year, I also keep eyeballing Write From History - I like the idea of adding more narration and writing to our history studies next year, and she loves history, and having it all laid out makes it feel more likely I will actually do it . . . At this point, I have no firm plans to do WWS with this child. We may do it, in a modified way, in 6th grade, but I"m not in a hurry and I'm not committed. We'll see what happens with her and with the W&R series as it unfolds. For my 6th grader; we've been all over the place this year, mostly writing across the curriculum. I got the Traits of Writing book, and we went through some of the lessons, but I didn't really like it for homeschool/one on one use. I can see that it would be good in a classroom, but it didn't really grab us. We also tried Warriners, but let it go - I liked the models very much, but the writing exercises quickly got redundant and boring. She had fun writing a few exercises of that type, but they were easy and light, and I didn't feel like she was getting much out of them. She doesn't need "writing practice" - her basic skills are solid, she can knock summaries, descriptions, and chronological narratives out of the park. What she needs work on is putting it all together into a finished, mature sounding composition. She needs more work on Introductions and Conclusions, and I'm not entirely sure where to go with that, I guess we just keep working on it with every paper she writes. I don't have any magic plans there. She's doing the Poetry unit in WWS 1 now, and really enjoying it. I wasn't a huge fan of the literary analysis section of WWS - the whole "write the summary" then "write the analysis" then "smash them together" thing felt very klugey. But I absoutely love the way it teaches writing about poetry, largely because I'm clueless about doing this myself! Shannon is loving it, I'm seeing lights go on all over the place, and she wants to focus on reading, writing about, and writing poetry for awile. I got a bunch of books from the library and I'm looking at this for when we finish the WWS lessons: http://www.blackbirdandcompany.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24&zenid=ccb41d3c72ddc337ff9f59c36bdd0f91 Other than that, she'll write about one or two more books, and then do an end-of-year paper in science and in history. That will give another chance to focus on the areas she needs to work on - intros & conclusions, and the best organizational structure to convey one's arguments. I'm happy with the writing she's done this year. Next year I'm still planning on having her start work with essays, still deciding on exactly how, but the things I'm looking at using include Lively Art of Writing, Bravewriter's Help for High School, and these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0545058988/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/111802432X/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I'm curious to see what others are doing, have changed, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Well, I've abandoned all writing curricula for both boys, and am going it on my own! For older ds I have decided to focus on a single type of writing until he has mastered it. I think that by covering many types of writing, he was just never mastering any of it. So about a month ago we started with literary analysis because he is so very well read and loves talking about books. We are starting with short stories. I'm making sure to cover invention, arrangement, and style; and we are reading and studying lots of examples of lit analysis. I am basically just responding to how the conversation goes with no real goals, and then spending lots of time carefully reading and evaluating *how* to help him edit - today this aspect went very well. Will post his masterpiece tomorrow on the writing workshop thread for comment, so go look and give us some feedback. Unfortunately, he chose Vaila by Shiel, so not very well known, but a very very good gothic story. The other thing we have decided for this boy is that we need to block write. Every 3 weeks he will dedicate 2 days (3 hours each day) to writing out his essay. I used to have him write every day, and I finally realized that this was really not working. On the third day, we have a 2-hour, deep meaningful discussion about improvements. I think this is key. For younger ds, I have decided to just focus on report writing for the next 2 years, building up to multiple sources. I am teaching him different types of paragraph styles (comparison, cause/effect, definition, narrative, description, etc) and since he reads a lot of national geographic, we are using it to study *how* good writing is made and *what* types of material are included in each of the different paragraph types. Then he is using it as his source material for his reports. Overall, a very good choice for this family. We are focusing on one thing at a time, studying high quality writing, and spending lots of time editing. I am just winging it, but I think that I have read so much about teaching writing that I actually know what I am doing. :001_smile: Ruth in NZ ETA: here is his lit analysis essay http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/507634-8th-grade-literary-analysis-need-suggestions/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Ruth, I agree that spending a lot of time editing is one of the most important aspects of teaching writing. I recently realized that I spend about thirty minutes editing with my son for each paragraph he writes. One of the most useful things to do is to read the composition out loud, either you reading it to your child or he reading it to you. Many of the problems will become apparent just through that exercise. For example, yesterday I pointed out to my son that he used the word "much" in three sentences in a row. I read him the three sentences together, and the sound of it was obviously too repetitive. We got out our Roget's and tried to find interesting replacements. Doing this type of editing matters more than which writing curricula you pick IMO. One reason the government schools don't have a great deal of success in teaching writing is because there is little or no time for the teacher to sit with each student and edit. Don't overdo it with the editing, though. That is very hard on little kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professormom Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Dup post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professormom Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I think everything you are describing does fall under a combo of "informative persuasion." They all have a point to make. The difference is how they go about it. Academic essays are going to have a different voice/style than a political speech or an article that is trying to form readers' views. The common thread is that they all have some sort of contention that the author is trying to sway readers/listeners to agree with. I'm not sure that rhetoric along the lines of MLK, etc is in and of itself an ultimate goal. Great writings across all genres contain stylistic traits that make them memorable or impactful. I think accomplished writers know how to embrace different styles for different audiences while still incorporating key traits. I would suggest the ultimate goal is for a writer to be able to adapt their style, voice, presentation to meet an intended purpose. I agree. Knowing the audience is key and can be difficult for young people to articulate... I think this is because their own life stage is so self-focused (I.e., everyone is like me) and their experiences may not have the diversity to distinguish nuances between audiences. (I am not talking about simply being raised in a diverse area or high school. What I am getting at is the grown-up ability to step out of your own shoes and realize those of the "other". Many adults haven't had much success at this one:-). Really good, seasoned writers work on this constantly, but I think it takes years of experience. That development/stage of life piece is one reason I think the 5pt essay is everywhere. Not because it is great writing, but because it allows -scratch that- it forces a young person to ORGANIZE his or her thoughts. Breaking the free-flow of teenage ideas into concise and solid points helps promote clarity. In my experience, clarity is one of the biggest challenges to the teenage mind, not because they are hormonal basket cases (although that can be the case:), but because they have SO much going on internally. Neurologically, the self-control pieces are not yet strong. So, like anything else, boundaries help. Basic and inelegant, maybe, but useful. That being said, I think whoever was talking about discussing why certain articles are so powerful (and non-formulaic) is completely appropriate for the age group. They are advanced enough to see those kinds of nuance, even if they can't yet replicate them. Modeling... It's a beautiful thing. Just my two cents. Thanks to all for this post... It has been so thought-provoking and has made me look for a little more clarity (lol) in my long-term approach to writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeEducatingFather Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 You have started a very good topic here and it has grown to a sizable post now with all the replies. May I suggest to turn this into a podcast? Let me explain it: The time needed to read is limited for everybody. Even a great post like this and all the awesome replies that I presume to be present here, people like me lose out on due to lack of time to read. Of course we could approach this with a speed read and skimming the surface type of approach, but that would not serve this topic well. Have this conversation brought to the audio and distributed via podcast, enables rest of the world to find this topic and hear it out at times of what I call "in-between tasking". (Welcome to the mobile revolution). This leave us with the question: how to do it and who will do it? The how is fairy easy for people like me or anyone who is willing to invest the time to learn it, but the question of who will do it, is rather larger. If you would willing to invest your time to read the articles and the posts replies, then I am willing to help punting them up at least on YT, but Podcast as well if it comes out in good enough quality. Then we can open up the invitation to contributors to this thread to voice their own comments personally and before we know, now we have a conversation going on and this tread won't implode. Hopefully the admin of this site will look upon this idea positively and constructively but their is a chance that he/she / they wont and the idea is dead before it can even get started. That is politics and I do not which way such wind is blowing here, since I am a new member. For now I close this comment here with my pledge to support and help to bring this conversation out in a multimedia format so more of us can benefit from all the content published and the future post that are bound to come. :grouphug: Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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